May 12 Countdown Thread 2020

[bt30hnr4fd]

M1 from another school popping in here, hope everyone's hanging in there given everything going on!

I sincerely feel for everyone waiting to hear back from Mac, and I can understand any frustration you might have. I interviewed at Mac 3 times before getting in, and if I were in your position I would be angry and upset and everything in between. I don’t think the situation was handled very well by McMaster, personally I think they should’ve at least tried to do an online MMI or something like the other schools did. 

To me, their approach almost seems they’re taking their “evidence-based” selection process to the logical extreme. They invented and supposedly validated the MMI process, so apart from that they don’t have a lot of recent data on other approaches to selection. It seems like they were faced with the problem of how to select for a population of students comparable to previous years without having the MMI, and landed on their top-100 + lottery method. They probably found that in previous years, the top 100 was the approximate threshold for 70ish% acceptance rate, and arbitrarily used that number as the cutoff. As for the lottery, the only way I can rationalize that is if they considered it impossible to otherwise identify the applicants that would’ve shined in the MMI enough to push their score up, and figured that a lottery is a “fair” way to guarantee a certain percentage of those people in the class.

From a purely mathematical standpoint, I can rationalize the above thought process, but just like in medicine it's not all about the numbers and I feel like the lack of effort in arranging alternatives really showed a lack of sensitivity and disregard for the important, human aspects of medicine. 

[theinbetween]

1 hour ago, MedicineLCS said:

I really doubt it for multiple reasons. 

1. Public perception. "Medical school picks future Doctors via lottery" is a horrible headline for optics and PR purposes. Medical schools are the first (and arguably most important) step in selecting Canada's future physicians and saying that "everyone is equal before interviews" isn't going to make the public distaste for lottery systems die down. 

2. Interviews matter. They did this because they wanted to maintain their class composition, without interviews. This very much implies it's back to normal next year. There's a reason the email is entitled "Alternative admissions process" and talks about evidence. They want to use the traditional method, but can't. 

3. The long-term consequences and how our society views success. We live in a North American society that prizes individual effort, drive, resilience, and all those wonderful things. That's why our professionals are selected using this kind of system which prizes grades, test performance, and interviews. We're socialized to believe if we work hard we can obtain our goals, and introducing a lottery system permanently would directly conflict with this deep-seated cultural belief. 

Also, what European schools do is not highly relevant to what we do. We use the Canadian/American model of medical education, not a direct entry model like they tend to use. 

 

1. I agree

2. I really agree

3. Yasss I agree

[AgainOmsasSmh]

45 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

medical school's don't owe you anything...they can choose how to select people...don't like it, don't apply or if you get in, don't attend. It reeks of entitlement. There are thousands that didn't even get an interview anywhere that would kill for a position. There is not a shortage of people who want to attend..

I'm not a Mac applicant but I strongly disagree with this. Medical schools DO owe you fair and merit-based processing of your admission application, because they are publicly-funded institutions. They are free to choose their selection method, but within broad lines of equity, fairness and merit. And yes you are indeed entitled to be treated fairly and with justice throughout the process. So, yeah med schools are obligated to defend their selection procedures in front of media/justice systems and prove that it is fair to everyone,. The fact that you can sue them (even if you won't) means that they have an obligation yeah.

[Juxtaglomerulus]

I would argue that going to the media would do more harm them good. What are the possible outcomes? 

- Possible distrust by the public in McMaster med students

- Possible public distrust in all med school selection processes at large, because news bites don't necessarily reflect reality

- Pressure on Mac to change their mind and re-select applicants, except that it's generally too late to change (except maybe their waitlist) given the May 12 deadline

- An interesting news piece nonetheless

Furthermore, Mac did keep their word about sharing their selection criteria, albeit (strategically?) late in the game. Although I resent the non-stratified lottery approach I would be really excited to get-in. As others have mentioned, we did all get this far and there is some luck involved with MMIs. It's not ideal and my view on Mac has changed to be sure, but I don't think public outrage would benefit anyone.

[aloevera123]

I’m OOP so I should have a pretty good chance of being in the top 100 potentially, right? My GPA is 3.87 and CARS is 130. I must have done quite well on the CASPer to get an invite as an OOP, as only 10% of the interviews are given to people outside Ontario (~50 out of 5000 applicants). This is wild honestly 

[GLWL]

1 minute ago, Tucker said:

I’m OOP so I should have a pretty good chance of being in the top 100 potentially, right? My GPA is 3.87 and CARS is 130. I must have done quite well on the CASPer to get an invite as an OOP, as only 10% of the interviews are given to people outside Ontario (~50 out of 5000 applicants). This is wild honestly 

If you have the button you have an offer 

[aloevera123]

Just now, GLWL said:

If you have the button you have an offer 

I do!

[JohnGrisham]

3 minutes ago, AgainOmsasSmh said:

I'm not a Mac applicant but I strongly disagree with this. Medical schools DO owe you fair and merit-based processing of your admission application, because they are publicly-funded institutions. They are free to choose their selection method, but within broad lines of equity, fairness and merit. And yes you are indeed entitled to be treated fairly and with justice throughout the process. So, yeah med schools are obligated to defend their selection procedures in front of media/justice systems and prove that it is fair to everyone,. The fact that you can sue them (even if you won't) means that they have an obligation yeah.

This understanding is pre-disposed on one process being more "fair" then the other.

There is a reason almost every school in Canada has a different process then the next, its because there is more than one way to pick applicants.   The definition of "merit-based" is broad, hence why schools are so different in how they admit classes.  There is no reason medical schools couldn't all agree right now, to make it a lottery from the get go, for anyone who has above a 3.7 GPA and a 510 MCAT, to get to the interview stage.  They don't because of the optics and because of the varying institutional philosophies that each program has developed to pick their classes.

You are only owed a fair process, where you are not discriminated against based on age, race, etc etc and not unfairly bumped up due to conflicts of interests (knowing the dean etc etc). Things like that.  Not that they must use a certain weighting of GPA/MCAT, or that they consider your total MCAT vs just one section, or that they look at your non-academics in detail (UofC UBC) or dont look them  all that much like some schools.

[Dr. Shqipe]

5 hours ago, HeyMrSnowman said:

I bet $3 that Mac didn't use a lottery

This didn't age well LOL

[DrOtter]

5 minutes ago, Tucker said:

I’m OOP so I should have a pretty good chance of being in the top 100 potentially, right? My GPA is 3.87 and CARS is 130. I must have done quite well on the CASPer to get an invite as an OOP, as only 10% of the interviews are given to people outside Ontario (~50 out of 5000 applicants). This is wild honestly 

You don't actually know how they split this 100 spots amongst IP and OOP though. Do you see a button on your OMSAS? 

Edit: saw that you do have the button. You can be cautiously hopeful now! 

[James Nystead]

.

[MDLD]

1 hour ago, SoftTings said:

I just don't understand the benefit of the lottery? Like even if the order isn't perfectly indicative of how someone will be as a physician, what is the downside to sending offers to the top 206 ranked? It may be slightly better at selecting candidates, and even if it isn't it will result in fewer people being pissed off, and probably fewer people declining offers to not be associated with the "lottery year"

I would be okay with this. Of course it would suck for #207 but if I was that person at least I know that the people above me were better with casper, cars, and gpa.. 

[SnowmanTheSWOMEN]

[aloevera123]

2 minutes ago, DrOtter said:

You don't actually know how they split this 100 spots amongst IP and OOP though. Do you see a button on your OMSAS? 

There’s not difference once you get to the interview stage. IP and OOP have the same chance because the OOPs were turned down at a higher rate before the interview, if that makes sense? And yes I see a button, but I wasn’t sure how sold everyone was on the button = acceptance concept lol

[M9V]

The button indicates an offer for those that were selected from the lottery. We have seen many applicants on this thread with super high stats not have the button and this leads me to believe that they will be part of the top 100 and the button (and offer) for the top 100 will come out on May 12th. Likewise, we see many applicants who are unlikely to be part of the top 100 have this button which means they are the selected applicants via the lottery.

The reason why the lottery-selected applicants have this button now may be because McMaster told OMSAS to do the lottery selection and perhaps by selecting the applicants they may have tagged those individuals but mistakenly also made it visible to the applicants.

And just to add to the numbers - I have the button GPA - 3.96 CARS - 127 

[GLWL]

1 minute ago, M9V said:

The button indicates an offer for those that were selected from the lottery. We have seen many applicants on this thread with super high stats not have the button and this leads me to believe that they will be part of the top 100 and the button (and offer) for the top 100 will come out on May 12th. Likewise, we see many applicants who are unlikely to be part of the top 100 have this button which means they are the selected applicants via the lottery.

The reason why the lottery-selected applicants have this button now may be because McMaster told OMSAS to do the lottery selection and perhaps by selecting the applicants they may have tagged those individuals but mistakenly also made it visible to the applicants.

And just to add to the numbers - I have the button GPA - 3.96 CARS - 127 

McMaster would have been the ones to do the lottery not OMSAS as they have to also do the lottery for the waitlist.

[MedicineLCS]

1 minute ago, M9V said:

The button indicates an offer for those that were selected from the lottery. We have seen many applicants on this thread with super high stats not have the button and this leads me to believe that they will be part of the top 100 and the button (and offer) for the top 100 will come out on May 12th. Likewise, we see many applicants who are unlikely to be part of the top 100 have this button which means they are the selected applicants via the lottery.

The reason why the lottery-selected applicants have this button now may be because McMaster told OMSAS to do the lottery selection and perhaps by selecting the applicants they may have tagged those individuals but mistakenly also made it visible to the applicants.

And just to add to the numbers - I have the button GPA - 3.96 CARS - 127 

Based off the percentages and raw numbers there's no way those (if they are offers) are all lottery picks. How would you even make that kind of mistake? Also, why would OMSAS do the lottery? 

What makes the most sense is that somehow when Mac uploaded their offers (top 100 or lottery) something flipped in the system. 

[SnowmanTheSWOMEN]

Extending an early congrats to those who have the Button! To us non-buttoners, best of "luck" to us and let's hope that we end up in other medical schools (if any) or on Mac's waitlist at the very least.

[TheWayIAre]

notice how pretty much everyone who's convinced that button = offer are people who have the button?

confirmation. bias.

[DrOtter]

1 minute ago, M9V said:

The button indicates an offer for those that were selected from the lottery. We have seen many applicants on this thread with super high stats not have the button and this leads me to believe that they will be part of the top 100 and the button (and offer) for the top 100 will come out on May 12th. Likewise, we see many applicants who are unlikely to be part of the top 100 have this button which means they are the selected applicants via the lottery.

The reason why the lottery-selected applicants have this button now may be because McMaster told OMSAS to do the lottery selection and perhaps by selecting the applicants they may have tagged those individuals but mistakenly also made it visible to the applicants.

And just to add to the numbers - I have the button GPA - 3.96 CARS - 127 

I'm not convinced about this. Only McMaster had the list of candidates invited for the interview, not OMSAS. So why would they make OMSAS do the random selection. It makes more sense for them to do all this selection (top 100 AND lottery) in-house and then release this list to OMSAS.

[Zuk]

Someone should start a petition to get OMSAS to add a button for all of us. #Endthebuttonenvy

[DrOtter]

1 minute ago, TheWayIAre said:

notice how pretty much everyone who's convinced that button = offer are people who have the button?

confirmation. bias.

LOL I don't see the button on mine. But if it quacks.... 

[DrOtter]

Just now, Zuk said:

Someone should start a petition to get OMSAS to add a button for all of us. #Endthebuttonenvy

Button envy sounds like some Freud sh*t lol

[GLWL]

3 minutes ago, TheWayIAre said:

notice how pretty much everyone who's convinced that button = offer are people who have the button?

confirmation. bias.

I don’t have the button and I’m sure button means offer

edit: especially after Mac announced the lottery system, makes sense how some people got accepted and some didn’t stats wise.

[MrsAaronSamuels]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:36 PM, YesIcan55 said:

medical school's don't owe you anything...they can choose how to select people...don't like it, don't apply or if you get in, don't attend. It reeks of entitlement. There are thousands that didn't even get an interview anywhere that would kill for a position. There is not a shortage of people who want to attend..

.