Low gpa, high mcat. Any options in Canada?

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So basically, I'm in what looks to be a rare, and extremely terrible situation. Essentially, my cGPA at UofT is extremely low (3.1). I had a terrible first year in a specialized math program (like 1.3 terrible), then switched into STEM after taking a gap year. I just didn't take schooling seriously at the time, was going through some stuff. When I came back I started to take things a bit more seriously and got annual GPAs of 3.2, 3.5 and 3.3 for my 1st, 2nd and 3rd years in STEM (1st and 2nd weren't full course loads, since a couple of my classes from my real first year counted towards my new programs). At this point I really lacked any aspirations for the future, really didn't think I wanted to do anything with my degree, and so I never really applied myself. Really kicking myself for this now.

Between my 3rd and 4th year of STEM, I did a summer program with a doctor on a bit of a whim and developed something of a passion for the medical field. It was the first time in my life that I'd found something that I really wanted to do. I came back into 4th year and made a perfect 4.0 on OSMAS scale (90%+ at UofT) in all science courses on a full course load. I then wrote the MCAT and scored a 526 (132/132/131/131).

So my question is, do I have any chance at any Canadian medical schools, or will my application be thrown out before they even look at any aspect of it? and if not, are there any other feasible options for me (outside of the country)?

[indefatigable]

18 hours ago, plane-definition said:

So basically, I'm in what looks to be a rare, and extremely terrible situation. Essentially, my cGPA at UofT is extremely low (3.1). I had a terrible first year in a specialized math program (like 1.3 terrible), then switched into STEM after taking a gap year. I just didn't take schooling seriously at the time, was going through some stuff. When I came back I started to take things a bit more seriously and got annual GPAs of 3.2, 3.5 and 3.3 for my 1st, 2nd and 3rd years in STEM (1st and 2nd weren't full course loads, since a couple of my classes from my real first year counted towards my new programs). At this point I really lacked any aspirations for the future, really didn't think I wanted to do anything with my degree, and so I never really applied myself. Really kicking myself for this now.

Between my 3rd and 4th year of STEM, I did a summer program with a doctor on a bit of a whim and developed something of a passion for the medical field. It was the first time in my life that I'd found something that I really wanted to do. I came back into 4th year and made a perfect 4.0 on OSMAS scale (90%+ at UofT) in all science courses on a full course load. I then wrote the MCAT and scored a 526 (132/132/131/131).

So my question is, do I have any chance at any Canadian medical schools, or will my application be thrown out before they even look at any aspect of it? and if not, are there any other feasible options for me (outside of the country)?

Great work on turning things around!  I think the best option for you is to do at least one more year of UGrad with another 4.0.  Given your stellar MCAT you'll then have options at Queen's and Western (since these look at your best and last 2 years), and with continued 4.0 GPA maybe Ottawa.  You could probably also consider applying to places like UBC and Calgary, depending on your EC/non-academics.  If you make the GPA cut-offs you could try Sask or Manitoba.  You'd definitely have options in the US, but I think it's better to stick with Canada, unless cost isn't a factor at all.  I remember "specialized math" a long time ago - nice work. 

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29 minutes ago, insidious said:

Great work on turning things around!  I think the best option for you is to do at least one more year of UGrad with another 4.0.  Given your stellar MCAT you'll then have options at Queen's and Western (since these look at your best and last 2 years respectively), and with continued 4.0 GPA maybe Ottawa.  You could probably also consider applying to places like UBC and Calgary, depending on your EC/non-academics.  If you make the GPA cut-offs you could try Sask or Manitoba.  You'd definitely have options in the US, but I think it's better to stick with Canada, unless cost isn't a factor at all.  I remember "specialized math" a long time ago - nice work. 

Thanks  Unfortunately I was an idiot and opted for graduation thinking I would do a masters to help me, and then found out a masters is basically irrelevant to medical schools apps. Do you think I would have much of a shot in the US in my current standing? I figured my GPA would be too low as an international. Tbh I'd have to go into debt for it, but I think it'd definitely be worth it in the end. I just didn't think US was a possibility for me

[zxcccxz]

20 minutes ago, plane-definition said:

Thanks  Unfortunately I was an idiot and opted for graduation thinking I would do a masters to help me, and then found out a masters is basically irrelevant to medical schools apps. Do you think I would have much of a shot in the US in my current standing? I figured my GPA would be too low as an international. Tbh I'd have to go into debt for it, but I think it'd definitely be worth it in the end. I just didn't think US was a possibility for me

US schools are more holistic in their file reviews IMO because they don't have hard cutoffs for any single section of your application (i.e., GPA, MCAT etc.). Due to that, a phenomenal MCAT, like the one you have, can make up for a not-so-great GPA. Also, unlike most Canadian schools, US schools consider upward trends in GPA, which would also be beneficial in your case. That said, I have no ideas what your ECs are like, and that is also a part that can make or break your application (both in Canada and the US).

It is ultimately up to you to decide whether going to the US is worth it for you. Debt is one factor, and an important one (you will be paying $40,000+ USD tuition per year wherever you go, which means you'll graduate with crazy debt; scholarships for international students are rare). Another factor is whether you want to practice in the US or not (several things to consider including increased malpractice problems, less job security, more importance placed on the prestige of your school in residency matching, lack of universal healthcare etc.). It will certainly be easier to match to Canada if you do your MD here.

I would say that unless you actually prefer to live and practice in the states, it would be better for you to do an extra year an undergrad (even though you've graduated you can always enroll again as a non-degree student and take courses). Given your OMSAS 4.0 in your final year, I have no doubt you can excel, and then have a GPA that would make you very competitive at Western, Queen, Ottawa, and perhaps other others. 

[plane-definition]

9 minutes ago, zxcccxz said:

US schools are more holistic in their file reviews IMO because they don't have hard cutoffs for any single section of your application (i.e., GPA, MCAT etc.). Due to that, a phenomenal MCAT, like the one you have, can make up for a not-so-great GPA. Also, unlike most Canadian schools, US schools consider upward trends in GPA, which would also be beneficial in your case. That said, I have no ideas what your ECs are like, and that is also a part that can make or break your application (both in Canada and the US).

It is ultimately up to you to decide whether going to the US is worth it for you. Debt is one factor, and an important one (you will be paying $40,000+ USD tuition per year wherever you go, which means you'll graduate with crazy debt; scholarships for international students are rare). Another factor is whether you want to practice in the US or not (several things to consider including increased malpractice problems, less job security, more importance placed on the prestige of your school in residency matching, lack of universal healthcare etc.). It will certainly be easier to match to Canada if you do your MD here.

I would say that unless you actually prefer to live and practice in the states, it would be better for you to do an extra year an undergrad (even though you've graduated you can always enroll again as a non-degree student and take courses). Given your OMSAS 4.0 in your final year, I have no doubt you can excel, and then have a GPA that would make you very competitive at Western, Queen, Ottawa, and perhaps other others. 

While US would definitely not be my first choice, I figure its still better to end up with debt that you can pay off with the extra years that you're in practice, rather than getting into canada later/never.

Also, I definitely thought to count more years towards my GPA calculation I would need to reapply to another bachelors program. Are you saying I can take courses as a non degree student and count those as if they were a fifth year?

[zxcccxz]

4 minutes ago, plane-definition said:

Are you saying I can take courses as a non degree student and count those as if they were a fifth year?

Yes, I believe so. I also attended UofT for life science, so I know this is definitely an option at least at the UTSG campus. You should email your college registrar. They will be able to help you out with specifics.

[indefatigable]

6 minutes ago, plane-definition said:

While US would definitely not be my first choice, I figure its still better to end up with debt that you can pay off with the extra years that you're in practice, rather than getting into canada later/never.

Also, I definitely thought to count more years towards my GPA calculation I would need to reapply to another bachelors program. Are you saying I can take courses as a non degree student and count those as if they were a fifth year?

You should be able to take UG courses as a non-degree student.  The fifth year would be important for Western - double check their policies and even contact them if it's unclear.  The other schools it shouldn't be an issue (but double check).

Financing US Medical education is complicated.  Every Canadian med student basically has access to an unsecured LOC.  For US education, not only is a cosigner for a large LOC needed, but additional savings as well, given the very high cost (and unfavourable exchange rates).   

You're very close to being very competitive in Canada - one more year of 4.0 will give you lots of options (along with non-academics/ECs).

[plane-definition]

11 minutes ago, insidious said:

You should be able to take UG courses as a non-degree student.  The fifth year would be important for Western - double check their policies and even contact them if it's unclear.  The other schools it shouldn't be an issue (but double check).

Financing US Medical education is complicated.  Every Canadian med student basically has access to an unsecured LOC.  For US education, not only is a cosigner for a large LOC needed, but additional savings as well, given the very high cost (and unfavourable exchange rates).   

You're very close to being very competitive in Canada - one more year of 4.0 will give you lots of options (along with non-academics/ECs).

I feel that I've probably missed the deadline to apply for fall courses, but I will definitely look into it. If so I guess I'm looking at another 2 years before I can even apply to western etc.

[bearded frog]

The US is more holistic, but also uses a separate science GPA and 3.1 is still too low, especially for Canadian students. Although by doing post-bac year(s) you would increase your chances for a US admission.

[plane-definition]

9 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

The US is more holistic, but also uses a separate science GPA and 3.1 is still too low, especially for Canadian students. Although by doing post-bac year(s) you would increase your chances for a US admission.

What I figured yeah. I've had this past year off and have been using it to build ECs, but I really should of just been doing a full course load of non degree studies. I honestly didn't realize that was an option for boosting GPA. Edit: however, my science gpa would be higher than the one I mentioned, which is being dragged down by some humanities courses i took for my minor. C+'s/B-'s vs A's/A+'s

 

[bearded frog]

14 hours ago, plane-definition said:

What I figured yeah. I've had this past year off and have been using it to build ECs, but I really should of just been doing a full course load of non degree studies. I honestly didn't realize that was an option for boosting GPA. Edit: however, my science gpa would be higher than the one I mentioned, which is being dragged down by some humanities courses i took for my minor. C+'s/B-'s vs A's/A+'s

 

Might be worth actually calculating your AMCAS GPAs then

[canada747]

...honestly, if CASPer is killed, you could get into McMaster. This calculator (which is probably out of date) is an estimate based on some posts on this forum before. https://casperfect.ca/mcmaster-medicine-2#calculator

With a 132 CARS (100th percentile), you could cancel out a 3.1 GPA (almost 0th percentile, since 3.0 GPA is the Mac application minimum). If you score well on CASPer, you could get an interview.

Post-interview, it's 70% interview score, 15% GPA, 15% CARS. Assuming again that your CARS and GPA cancel out to make you "average", it becomes almost entirely based on your interview score. You can see the formula here: https://mdprogram.mcmaster.ca/md-program-admissions/how-we-select/selecting-our-students

It's really a math problem here - your ECs don't matter, and if you kill CASPer (the only subjective part in this equation), you could get in. The CASPer marking scheme was also sort of leaked by an Australian university. PM me if you need any advice!

P.S. I also went to UTSG, so I feel your pain (by GPA was more competitive, but I still feel your pain lol)

[bearded frog]

I wouldn't trust that calculator, while its true that all are weighted equally, they likely use Z scores as opposed to opposite values so you cannot say what X GPA or Y Cars score is worth in that 33% of your score. Yes his CARS is 100th percentile and GPA 0th percentile, but relative to the average they are quite different. So while they will likely get 33/33% for CARS, say they gets 0/33% for GPA (and we'll ignore casper for now) So theoretically they gets 33/66% on his application. Assuming we're using Z scores, the average applicant among the 5000 who apply for 500 interviews and 200 spots will also have 33/66% by definition. So even before considering casper they are 2500/5000 in the ranking. So to get an interview he will need to be in the top 20% of all applicants, not impossible, but still a large barrier. Note that I have no idea if they actually use z scores or if their weighing is different, but using that calculator even if you max the CARS and min the GPA it still gives 2/3 chance of interview with an average Casper score which objectively doesn't make sense when you likely need an 8/10 (z-score)

[seewhathappens]

On 6/5/2020 at 7:37 PM, bearded frog said:

I wouldn't trust that calculator, while its true that all are weighted equally, they likely use Z scores as opposed to opposite values so you cannot say what X GPA or Y Cars score is worth in that 33% of your score. Yes his CARS is 100th percentile and GPA 0th percentile, but relative to the average they are quite different. So while they will likely get 33/33% for CARS, say they gets 0/33% for GPA (and we'll ignore casper for now) So theoretically they gets 33/66% on his application. Assuming we're using Z scores, the average applicant among the 5000 who apply for 500 interviews and 200 spots will also have 33/66% by definition. So even before considering casper they are 2500/5000 in the ranking. So to get an interview he will need to be in the top 20% of all applicants, not impossible, but still a large barrier. Note that I have no idea if they actually use z scores or if their weighing is different, but using that calculator even if you max the CARS and min the GPA it still gives 2/3 chance of interview with an average Casper score which objectively doesn't make sense when you likely need an 8/10 (z-score)

Agreed, I think that calculator skews massively positive.  Much like percentiles, have to remember that each step moving up the rank list is progressively harder.  Jumping from 50th to 75th percentile is relatively easy, but jumping into the to 90th from 75th is exponentially harder. (And you have to make the 90th cut to get an offer).