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46 minutes ago, innocentius said:

 

Go to this thread. to get an idea of typical new grad tech salaries in SV.. 

 

That's based on anecdotal experiences of people on **DELETED**, definitely not what you want to be basing your perspective on. And to add to that, the majority of people in the thread that comment on the $120k+ salaries are in exasperation about how high they are, so it doesn't really prove your point as most people there seem to agree that those salaries are far from the norm. I gave you real data from a salary report, I don't know what your argument is here.

23 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

yes, because the average Canadian CS grad is getting job offers from top US companies  then easily getting a work visa, and def is not fighting for a 60K CAD job in Canada with hundreds of other applicants.../s

^^^^^^^ I don't get why people over-estimate job prospects so much, it does absolutely nothing for them. It's beneficial to be realistic about your career possibilities and potential earnings. While what you said is possible, you're probably just as likely to get struck by lightning, win the lottery, etc. Even in America, the odds of getting into a big SV tech company are exceedingly low, and then to get that $200k starting salary is another really low %. Why try and make it into something it's not?

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I'm currently in my final year of medical school and there's hasn't been a single moment where I regretted quitting investment banking. 
If I had stayed in IB, I would probably be making way more money than I ever would be as a doctor. 
However, no amount of money can replace the shitty, dreadful feeling of waking up everyday to do something that I had no passion for. It's just fucking horrible.
Also, the competition  in IB was cut throat; you always had to watch your back; you're easily replaced by the next person if you don't perform; you constantly have suck up to your boss; your body is destroyed by alcohol and lack of sleep; and you can be fired at any time if the market suddenly turns to shit. To me, IB sucked ass. 

However, if asked the same question to some of my former IB colleagues, they would probably paint you a completely picture.  Some people love that kind of life and that's completely cool too. 

Ultimately, it comes down to your personality, values, and what gives you meaning in life. What is worth a lot to you may be worth nothing to other people and vice versa.

Also, to all the people who think these other careers like tech, engineering, business or whatever is "easier" than medicine--that's just bs.  I personally feel that I worked a lot harder to get into IB than to get into medicine. I also have lots of friends in engineering, tech, consulting, and real estate who are successful in their careers but stressed af. I also know quite a few who are struggling. They talk to me about their work stressors and I can't imagine going through some of the things that they go through. 
Ultimately, comparing IB or whatever other career to medicine is comparing apples to oranges.  Every career has its own stressors and difficulties. It really depends on what you value and what you're willing to deal with. 

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On 7/2/2020 at 4:10 PM, skyuppercutt said:

Well, the short answer is residency kinda really sucks. I work every other weekend, don't make a lot of money, my sleep schedule sucks because I do a lot of call and I'm not making a lot of money. People my age are partying, traveling, sleeping when they want to and have jobs that are a lot of fun. 

That being said, would I trade this? No, because I love what I do and would do it over and over again. I run into people who aren't in healthcare and lost their jobs because of covid, while I know mine is secure. I know I will make a lot of money later in life and I think I'm having fun. Here's a caveat though, I know that I am an exceptionally happy person by my nature and I have yet to meet someone who is as happy and carefree as I am and I still feel that residency sucks. Other residents who I've spoken to say that they ask themselves on a daily basis why they ever decided to go into medicinne and how if they haad the option to not do this again, they would  NOT do medicine at all. 

Do what you will with this information and I hope it was helpful

Agree with this, everyone has moments where they question why they went into medicine even if briefly, but everyone has moments where they feel they made the right choice and feel on top of the world. Overall, I think medicine is a good career for a lot of people. I think for the nice, more academic, slightly less assertive types, this is probably one of the few ways they'll land a high paying stable upper middle class job. For those who could truly succeed in business, law, medicine it really depends on your values. 

The one thing i've learned through residency and friends in other jobs is, in the majority of cases, there is no free lunch. Everyone who has money, prestige, power, income/freetime ratio, all had to work hard to get there. You really just need to pick your poison and just run with it. 

Medicine is rough, and yes residents work hard. In a surgical residency (when on surgical rotations) your days will start at 5:45 and end between 7-9pm with call on at least half your weekends and 1 in 3 home call. As a junior resident you may start slightly earlier and end closer to 6pm but will have to do in house call 1 in 4. The difference between resident hours and hours in a corporate world is that surgical resident hours are often physically demanding and non-stop busy. This can be exhausting at times. In the corporate world you may be at work on your desk waiting for emails and it is nowhere near as mentally taxing as being in the OR trying to do 10 things at once. In fact, many attendings brag about never seeing the sun going to and from work for their entire career. Some intense fellowships (transplant) can be 1 in 1 call or 1 in 2 call and this can even be the case as a junior staff. On your off days you are trying to catch up on emails and research and you barely have time for your IADLs when things are rough. The good things though, job security (you don't recognize it until a recession, but job security is huge, plus the little income you earn you know is going to keep coming, whereas for high paid unstable professions they don't know if they will even have a job in a year or two so they are forced to save and invest a huge part of it), feeling like you are doing good (what we do is so tangible, helping patients get through their rough times, despite all the jadedness there is still something to be said about this, few other professions get to feel it) and a unique skill set (knowing your medicine is just something that would be useful today and in an apocalypse, this is similar to job security but you are useful in every corner of the world at any time in any place and that is a good feeling).

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For anyone interested in stats about medical specialties in Canada, check out https://www.cma.ca/canadian-specialty-profiles.

The CMA posts data on average gross income, average % overhead, average number of hours worked per week, job satisfaction etc. I was surprised to see that the specialties were more similar than I expected- except for things like cardiology, neurosurgery, etc. (which are a bit crazy), the majority of specialties work about 50 hours per week (as a staff) and make $300-450k with overhead generally being 20-30%, with some ~40% on the high end.

For those talking up derm, it's not quite as rosy as you'd think- although it may vary by provide, the average derm salary in Canada is $430k + 35% overhead working 55 hours per week. The salary is only slightly higher than most others, and the overhead and hours per week are higher than most

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21 hours ago, blah1234 said:

The big thing in medicine is the escalator like you mentioned. You need a luck in other industries but we still need some amount in medicine. Getting into medical school requires a certain type of luck all by itself.

I don't want to comment too specifically as I don't want to be doxxed but here is a small sample. Generally speaking I have close friends who:

1) Big Tech in California (they 100% make more than me even before currency conversion and work ~40-45 hours a week. Our partners talk so I know this is true haha). They just climbed naturally and with their stock refreshes it has been a good deal.
2) Big Law (also they do better than me but they work pretty hard).
3) Corporate senior management (comparable to me and some work hard and some have pretty cushy gigs i.e. 9-5)

4) Finance (these guys make way more but also work more than me but probably less than surgeons)


 

Do you work as a GP earning ~$100k in an overly saturated region? If finances are your priority, you can make $500k+ pretax.

I guarantee you that people in Big Tech aren't making that unless you're talking about people at the top of the pyramid (tech lead roles) at which point you're probably on par with them. Red  dit.com/r/cscareerquestions

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40 minutes ago, Coldery said:

Do you work as a GP earning ~$100k in an overly saturated region? If finances are your priority, you can make $500k+ pretax.

I guarantee you that people in Big Tech aren't making that unless you're talking about people at the top of the pyramid (tech lead roles) at which point you're probably on par with them. Red  dit.com/r/cscareerquestions

I'm not a GP making ~$100k and I have no interest in working rural to make more regardless as I am happy with where I am and my current financial situation. My friends are all L5s or higher now which is a total comp of ~$350K+. Many of them entered at around L3 which a little less than ~$200K. I never said all CS students achieved that but my friends who relocated to the US were able to do that just fine by putting in the time and effort. I honestly don't think they've had to work as hard as many of my classmates and I during residency and they don't do regular call like me as a staff. 

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2 hours ago, Psych said:

For anyone interested in stats about medical specialties in Canada, check out https://www.cma.ca/canadian-specialty-profiles.

The CMA posts data on average gross income, average % overhead, average number of hours worked per week, job satisfaction etc. I was surprised to see that the specialties were more similar than I expected- except for things like cardiology, neurosurgery, etc. (which are a bit crazy), the majority of specialties work about 50 hours per week (as a staff) and make $300-450k with overhead generally being 20-30%, with some ~40% on the high end.

For those talking up derm, it's not quite as rosy as you'd think- although it may vary by provide, the average derm salary in Canada is $430k + 35% overhead working 55 hours per week. The salary is only slightly higher than most others, and the overhead and hours per week are higher than most

Those CMA numbers are severely deflated for a variety of reasons ... in AB ENT, cardiology , radiology, GI are all 750K+ affer overhead, and derm is in fact 1 million + after overhead easily with cosmetics. Plastic surgery can make 2 million + in a busy cosmetic practice. Ophthalmology retina is 1-2 million after overhead. Check the billing’s before and after overhead for every single Alberta physician I posted which only includes government billing’s and derm is 1.1 million before overhead on average including part timers

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On 7/10/2020 at 3:58 PM, blah1234 said:

I'm not a GP making ~$100k and I have no interest in working rural to make more regardless as I am happy with where I am and my current financial situation. My friends are all L5s or higher now which is a total comp of ~$350K+. Many of them entered at around L3 which a little less than ~$200K. I never said all CS students achieved that but my friends who relocated to the US were able to do that just fine by putting in the time and effort. I honestly don't think they've had to work as hard as many of my classmates and I during residency and they don't do regular call like me as a staff. 

But can they guarantee they will have that income (350k+) for the rest of their careers? I tend to see big tech as similar to big oil. Right now, its the hottest thing so compensation/hoursworked ratio is the best out there, but just like IBM was the hottest thing of the 80s and now those same 20 something hot shots are now 55 and finding themselves pushed out of their 150k a yr jobs (there was a news article about this), this could happen to the software engineers of today. 

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On 7/10/2020 at 5:12 PM, offmychestplease said:

Those CMA numbers are severely deflated for a variety of reasons ... in AB ENT, cardiology , radiology, GI are all 750K+ affer overhead, and derm is in fact 1 million + after overhead easily with cosmetics. Plastic surgery can make 2 million + in a busy cosmetic practice. Ophthalmology retina is 1-2 million after overhead. Check the billing’s before and after overhead for every single Alberta physician I posted which only includes government billing’s and derm is 1.1 million before overhead on average including part timers

It isn't that rosy, partly because Albertan doctors are the best paid in Canada and other provinces namely Ontario do not pay that high. This also is changing as oil prices drop and Alberta's finances take a hit. The second thing is people tend to focus on the outliers, news of a derm making 1mil+ spreads way farther and faster than the derm making 170k a yr because they decided to work part time. 

Admittedly those CMA numbers are surveys so take that with a grain of salt, but do understand that even in the fields above, those numbers are really only for the doctors who work in subsets of those fields and often work long hours as well. 

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39 minutes ago, Edict said:

But can they guarantee they will have that income (350k+) for the rest of their careers? I tend to see big tech as similar to big oil. Right now, its the hottest thing so compensation/hoursworked ratio is the best out there, but just like IBM was the hottest thing of the 80s and now those same 20 something hot shots are now 55 and finding themselves pushed out of their 150k a yr jobs (there was a news article about this), this could happen to the software engineers of today. 

I can't say that things will stay that way forever in tech. However, if you're disciplined I think you can be financially stable even if you get in at this point. However, that is easier said than done as people in their 20s are often irresponsible with their income (myself included).

I'm not sure if medicine will stay this highly paid either forever. I feel like Canadian finances are in shambles and we do well because of our proximity to the US. I have to imagine that there would be some sort of reform south of the border as the cost of care gets increasingly unaffordable for the majority of the population.

I suppose I can't use past trends and extrapolate forever into the future but I think we are still in an era where the multi-talented who are in medical school could've found equal success in other fields.

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:56 PM, offmychestplease said:

Law is not a safe bet for making money at all. Many law grads can't even find stable work as the field is saturated. The average lawyer does not even make 6 figures. Again, a very small % of a graduating law class will make it in "big law" and even then the hours are terrible, job security is low, and "partner salary" in a big law firm (something that 99% of law students will never reach) is less than a specialist doctor income. 

Idk where you got your information but there is no data showing how much partner salary is, there is also no data on how much lawyers actually make since a lot of them work for private firms/companies and the information is never disclosed (there shouldn't be data on this as most lawyers don't work for public institutions like doctors and they are not required to disclose their salary). And also, perhaps you never heard of this, but there is something called "bonus" on top of the basic salary. Unless you are the one who is dealing with their taxes I assume you got the numbers by a simple Google search lol.

I also don't know whether you are aware of the "headover" doctors have to pay out of their salary and insurance.....  

There is also an article saying that nearly 1 in 5 specialist cannot find jobs https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nearly-one-in-five-new-specialist-doctors-cant-find-a-job-after/ 

so I guess there is no safe route for anything. Neither law or medicine. No job will guarantee you 100% money and stability, maybe there are better jobs and risky jobs but nothing will be a guarantee. You should be doing them for the right reasons. 

Pursue what you are passionate about and what you are good at. Don't worry about not getting paid well if you are capable and work hard. 

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I’d just like to share my two cents on this topic. 

My brother is 1-year older than me and works in business (has both his CPA/CFAs) and works downtown Toronto in finance now. I’m just finishing up medical school and did a MSc prior to starting. 
 

My brother earns ~200K in his field before taxes, is very wise with investing his money and lives a relatively frugal life despite his income. He also still has room to climb and make more money in his field but is complacent with his current income. He already has the funds to buy a home in the GTA if he so chose to do so today. He works probably 60 hours/week on average.

I myself however am 150K in the hole and plan on pursuing a 5-year surgical specialty residency. Realistically by the time I pay off my loans I’ll be 35. Then making let’s say 500K/year for 30 years. I believe my brother will be wealthier than I will be by the time we both hit our 60s and he probably will have long retired by then.

On the other hand, my brother doesn’t find his job satisfying and he works to live. He plans on retiring at the earliest age possible that will support his dream retirement lifestyle. My self on the other hand, love the career of medicine. I am also a workaholic by nature and think that medicine satisfies my work cravings as there is always unfinished work to do it seems. Although I am still only a medical student I feel a certain energy coursing through my veins going into work everyday. Constantly learning, and the ability to interact with compassion and empathy towards patients when they are at their most vulnerable excites me. Looking back, I always ponder if my work-ethic would have been better suited in business or engineering, but when I have these thoughts and compare myself to my brother, I don’t think I would be as satisfied with that type of work. 

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10 hours ago, RicardoKaká said:

I myself however am 150K in the hole and plan on pursuing a 5-year surgical specialty residency. Realistically by the time I pay off my loans I’ll be 35. Then making let’s say 500K/year for 30 years. I believe my brother will be wealthier than I will be by the time we both hit our 60s and he probably will have long retired by then.

On the other hand, my brother doesn’t find his job satisfying and he works to live. He plans on retiring at the earliest age possible that will support his dream retirement lifestyle. My self on the other hand, love the career of medicine. I am also a workaholic by nature and think that medicine satisfies my work cravings as there is always unfinished work to do it seems. Although I am still only a medical student I feel a certain energy coursing through my veins going into work everyday. Constantly learning, and the ability to interact with compassion and empathy towards patients when they are at their most vulnerable excites me. Looking back, I always ponder if my work-ethic would have been better suited in business or engineering, but when I have these thoughts and compare myself to my brother, I don’t think I would be as satisfied with that type of work. 

Yeah this is important to stress. 

You can either live for your work or work to live. If you're the type of person who would prefer working really hard over retiring, then by all means, it's worth it.

I find it difficult to understand how someone could enjoy being woken up in the middle of the night to drain an abscess and also deal with the rest of the hospital's administrative bullshit. Or even dealing with the patient who is diabetic, has a gangrene on their foot and refuses foot amputation and expects a miracle cure, so you offer to do a partial amputation to help his healing chances (although the pronostic is terrible and you'll probably have to go back and amputate later), while they continue to eat junk food, complain and threaten to sue you. 

 

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On 7/12/2020 at 7:09 PM, Edict said:

But can they guarantee they will have that income (350k+) for the rest of their careers? I tend to see big tech as similar to big oil. Right now, its the hottest thing so compensation/hoursworked ratio is the best out there, but just like IBM was the hottest thing of the 80s and now those same 20 something hot shots are now 55 and finding themselves pushed out of their 150k a yr jobs (there was a news article about this), this could happen to the software engineers of today. 

also as a comp sci guy I should add those jobs are often terrible in terms of work/life balance (you are basically working all the time ha), and the jobs are very fragile and often hard to get (just had a bunch of my friends laid off making in the 200K US range - nothing to do with covid, just market flux - honestly when people start earning huge salaries I immediately start thinking things are about to get bad - it feels like a bubble). Burnout is high, work stress is high, and you think medicine involve constantly learning - try being a computer programmer ha. At least the human body doesn't totally get replaced with a new "version" every year or so. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, MDinCanada said:

Yeah this is important to stress. 

You can either live for your work or work to live. If you're the type of person who would prefer working really hard over retiring, then by all means, it's worth it.

I find it difficult to understand how someone could enjoy being woken up in the middle of the night to drain an abscess and also deal with the rest of the hospital's administrative bullshit. Or even dealing with the patient who is diabetic, has a gangrene on their foot and refuses foot amputation and expects a miracle cure, so you offer to do a partial amputation to help his healing chances (although the pronostic is terrible and you'll probably have to go back and amputate later), while they continue to eat junk food, complain and threaten to sue you. 

 

Haha well vascular nor general surgery are the specialties I hope to pursue for the rest of my life (although I have nothing against them). Nevertheless, there’s always a story behind why a patient is presenting at this particular time, and sometimes we might not always agree with how they got there, but that is life and we just have to do our best for our patients no matter the prognosis or outlook on their disease that they may have. 
 

However you are right, there is a lot of administrative BS and frustrating things that we have to put up with, which is only made worse when you have to do these things in the middle of the night. I just finished my IM rotation and the amount of BS that my senior had to do on call which prevented them from sleeping was pretty ass and I did not envy it. Perhaps I will think differently after residency,  but so far throughout medical school I haven’t once doubted my decision. 
 

I also definitely agree that medicine isn’t as glamorous as social media and TV shows can portray it to be. I would thus encourage all applicants to really self-reflect and think about what becoming a doctor entails, and the sacrifices you might need to make throughout the entirety of your training and career before jumping into it. 

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