Where to even begin?

[Medwannabe]

I'm hoping for some guidance... I have 2 undergraduate degrees,  the first in Health Sciences,  the second in Biology.  My grades for the first were terrible, and the second, fairly solid but do have the odd course on my transcript that ruins my GPA (basically ruining my chances for med school applications).

I've since taken time away from academics to get myself healthy.  I've returned to complete a Masters in Epidemiology (thesis based) and it's going really well (GPA 3.8 after 1st year.. though I know this doesn't matter for med school apps).   I'm motivated to try and push for med school but 100% not going to be considered for any schools that will look at any of my old grades. I'm hoping to pump out 3-4 publications before graduating which could help my med school application. 

If I am going to try to apply to med school, is it even possible to try for some of the best 2 year schools at this point?  I am in Ontario and I believe my remaining options would be Western and Queens?   Is it worth it to do an online undergrad full-time to try to achieve this goal? This would be the most feasible for me as I could still work/pay my mortgage etc.  I was thinking of the Healthcare Admin program via AU.  If unsuccessful at med school, I'd like to push for a health care amin/leadership position and will be looking to apply for jobs in this area, at least this program may help build up skill set for a backup career. 

Thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated! Perhaps I'm just wasting my time and should pursue something else, but I seem to circle bad to med school almost on an annual basis and thinking I need to give this a go...  

 

 

[conbrio]

It's really hard to say without knowing what your undergrad GPA is. Might want to calculate it and include it to get more helpful responses. You'll also want to double check to make sure you had enough course load/progression to meet weighted GPA eligibility. Both Western and Queen's look at the MCAT as well, so you'll have to consider whether you have the time and ability to dedicate a couple months of study to get a good score.

People do separate undergrads to get a satisfactory GPA for med school often, but make sure the details of your program (ie being all online) are accepted for each med school. Western seems to accept online undergrad degrees, but not sure about Queen's.

A Master's can help your application, but the extent at which it helps differs depending on the medical school. For example, a lower undergrad GPA cutoff, or extra 'bonus' points to your undergrad GPA. But again, your undergrad GPA will determine whether you are screened out by the computer at the first stage or not.

[Medwannabe]

 

6 minutes ago, conbrio said:

It's really hard to say without knowing what your undergrad GPA is. Might want to calculate it and include it to get more helpful responses. You'll also want to double check to make sure you had enough course load/progression to meet weighted GPA eligibility. Both Western and Queen's look at the MCAT as well, so you'll have to consider whether you have the time and ability to dedicate a couple months of study to get a good score.

1st undergrad is low, I had some near failures. The second would be 2.2-2.6 range.  I really do need to start from scratch if I am going to pursue this.  I realize it would take me 2 full years to get this upgrading done, something I am willing to put the time into...  

In terms of course load/progression, I'd ensure the 5 courses for full course load.  I'm working fulltime and managing full-time coursework right now, as long as the courses are online and flexible, I am able to work them in around my work schedule. 

For progression, as long as I started in 1st year of a program and worked my way through, would this not meet the requirement or am I missing something in order to qualify for the weighted GPA?  

[bicman]

I feel you - the GPA game is a real struggle. Really sucks that Ontario doesn't factor in graduate studies. I've played the GPA game a while so hopefully this will help!

I'd suggest adding uOttawa to your list since they look at your three most recent years of undergrad for GPA, and they make a weighted GPA, with the most recent year being weighted highest and so forth. NOSM gives you a 0.2 bonus to your GPA if you have a graduate degree, but you need at least a 3.0/4 before the bonus to be eligible, although NOSM uses all undergraduate grades. 

In terms of outside of Ontario, you could consider UBC since they look at graduate grades and they drop your lowest year. UBC also converts letters to a percentage system, so check on their website to see how your school would convert (if the transcript has percentages then they take that, if not then they convert letters to percentages). You need 85% adjusted (i.e. after the lowest year is dropped) to be eligible as an OOP so check that before even applying. 

The schools in the prairies have super small OOP contingents, U of Calgary will use your graduate GPA as one year of undergrad, but you need a 3.8/4 to be eligible as an OOP (plus 128 in the CARS section of the MCAT). U of Alberta might be an interesting option, they'll consider your graduate grades and give you bonus points in the ranking because you have a graduate degree. U of Sask will drop some of your undergrad grades and replace them with your graduate grades, if it's to your advantage (which it sounds like it might be). U of Manitoba will drop some of your undergraduate grades to calculate an adjusted GPA but won't factor in your graduate grades themselves. 

If by chance you were born in Québec then you're considered IP at McGill (and the francophone schools, U de Montréal, Laval, and U de Sherbrooke) even if you don't live in Québec. McGill just uses undergrad GPA but will take your most recent degree. McGill also looks at the MCAT if you wrote it, so if you have an OK GPA on your 2nd degree and a stellar MCAT, might be worth applying even as OOP. If you were born in Québec and are willing/able to study in French, you could apply to the francophone schools. They don't use GPA per se, they compare your undergrad grades to the class averages and make a score based on that, and you get a bonus for having a complete undergrad and for having a graduate degree. I think they only take the last three years of undergrad (because undergrads in Québec are only three years). If you weren't born in Québec, but live in Ontario, you can't apply to the francophone schools. 

Going out east, Dalhousie might be a viable option. They'll take your last two years of undergrad and all your graduate grades to calculate your GPA, although you need 3.7/4 (OMSAS conversion) in each year to be eligible. Memorial University in Newfoundland doesn't have any minimum requirements so it might be worth applying there too. They only have 6 OOP spots (and get ~400 applications for those spots). 

I'd say it's worth applying to any school where you exceed the minimums for your category. You should do some more digging about online degrees, since I think some schools look disfavourably on them. 

If you see a school where you'd be competitive as an IP student, maybe consider moving to that province? For example, UBC considers you IP if you have a BC health card, which you get after living in BC for three months. Ontario doesn't really do IP/OOP (except for Western and McMaster, not 100% sure about the others), so you wouldn't necessarily lose out on the schools in Ontario. This would be a major step but maybe shorter than doing a whole other undergrad...

This is just my two cents, and the admission requirements of each school change often so make sure to double check before you apply. Otherwise good luck and feel free to PM me if you have questions

[Medase]

Best way would be to try to do another 2 years of undergrad, maintain 3.9+ and assess the situation from there. 

Is it worth doing an online undergrad? I honestly don't think so as you are missing out on the other big chunk of the application, which is ECs. Not saying you can't do those when you're doing an online undergrad, but you will be hindered. As you will be working to pay your mortgage, I'm assuming you won't have time to be involved, which possibly decrease your chances to get into EC focused Western and Queens schools. Have you tried looking at other professions in medicine outside of medical school? If you love the work there are many related careers that are a bit easier to get in. All in all, keep your backup well open, as you have a steep hill to climb, but if there's a will there's a way.

[Maggiie19]

20 minutes ago, bicman said:

I feel you - the GPA game is a real struggle. Really sucks that Ontario doesn't factor in graduate studies. I've played the GPA game a while so hopefully this will help!

I'd suggest adding uOttawa to your list since they look at your three most recent years of undergrad for GPA, and they make a weighted GPA, with the most recent year being weighted highest and so forth. NOSM gives you a 0.2 bonus to your GPA if you have a graduate degree, but you need at least a 3.0/4 before the bonus to be eligible, although NOSM uses all undergraduate grades. 

In terms of outside of Ontario, you could consider UBC since they look at graduate grades and they drop your lowest year. UBC also converts letters to a percentage system, so check on their website to see how your school would convert (if the transcript has percentages then they take that, if not then they convert letters to percentages). You need 85% adjusted (i.e. after the lowest year is dropped) to be eligible as an OOP so check that before even applying. 

The schools in the prairies have super small OOP contingents, U of Calgary will use your graduate GPA as one year of undergrad, but you need a 3.8/4 to be eligible as an OOP (plus 128 in the CARS section of the MCAT). U of Alberta might be an interesting option, they'll consider your graduate grades and give you bonus points in the ranking because you have a graduate degree. U of Sask will drop some of your undergrad grades and replace them with your graduate grades, if it's to your advantage (which it sounds like it might be). U of Manitoba will drop some of your undergraduate grades to calculate an adjusted GPA but won't factor in your graduate grades themselves. 

If by chance you were born in Québec then you're considered IP at McGill (and the francophone schools, U de Montréal, Laval, and U de Sherbrooke) even if you don't live in Québec. McGill just uses undergrad GPA but will take your most recent degree. McGill also looks at the MCAT if you wrote it, so if you have an OK GPA on your 2nd degree and a stellar MCAT, might be worth applying even as OOP. If you were born in Québec and are willing/able to study in French, you could apply to the francophone schools. They don't use GPA per se, they compare your undergrad grades to the class averages and make a score based on that, and you get a bonus for having a complete undergrad and for having a graduate degree. I think they only take the last three years of undergrad (because undergrads in Québec are only three years). If you weren't born in Québec, but live in Ontario, you can't apply to the francophone schools. 

Going out east, Dalhousie might be a viable option. They'll take your last two years of undergrad and all your graduate grades to calculate your GPA, although you need 3.7/4 (OMSAS conversion) in each year to be eligible. Memorial University in Newfoundland doesn't have any minimum requirements so it might be worth applying there too. They only have 6 OOP spots (and get ~400 applications for those spots). 

I'd say it's worth applying to any school where you exceed the minimums for your category. You should do some more digging about online degrees, since I think some schools look disfavourably on them. 

If you see a school where you'd be competitive as an IP student, maybe consider moving to that province? For example, UBC considers you IP if you have a BC health card, which you get after living in BC for three months. Ontario doesn't really do IP/OOP (except for Western and McMaster, not 100% sure about the others), so you wouldn't necessarily lose out on the schools in Ontario. This would be a major step but maybe shorter than doing a whole other undergrad...

This is just my two cents, and the admission requirements of each school change often so make sure to double check before you apply. Otherwise good luck and feel free to PM me if you have questions

Just a little correction for uOttawa. They changed the GPA calculation for next cycle. They will still use your last 3 years of full-time study but they will use the cGPA instead of a wGPA. They will NOT do x3, x2, x1 anymore.

Also, for the French Quebec universities, they unfortunately count ALL your undergraduate grades, including repeated courses and summer courses.

[Medwannabe]

4 minutes ago, Medase said:

Best way would be to try to do another 2 years of undergrad, maintain 3.9+ and assess the situation from there. 

Is it worth doing an online undergrad? I honestly don't think so as you are missing out on the other big chunk of the application, which is ECs. Not saying you can't do those when you're doing an online undergrad, but you will be hindered. As you will be working to pay your mortgage, I'm assuming you won't have time to be involved, which possibly decrease your chances to get into EC focused Western and Queens schools. Have you tried looking at other professions in medicine outside of medical school? If you love the work there are many related careers that are a bit easier to get in. All in all, keep your backup well open, as you have a steep hill to climb, but if there's a will there's a way.

Thank you for this!  Do you think working in a hospital/public health or research setting would help keep the ECs up? Participating on boards for local hospitals, REBs etc?  I'd like to maintain my research connections and continue to collaborate as a community partner on projects once my Masters is complete but perhaps this won't provide nearly enough experience. I didn't realize Western and Queens were big on ECs, do you have any other suggestions for me to gather experience, aside from my goal of using my epi background to build up research experience?  I may need to reconsider full -time work in order to meet this requirement 

This is certainly a steep hill to climb for sure, as i'm getting older, I'm looking at things from the perspective of the 'end' of my life, and I know I would regret it if I hadn't tried. 

[Medase]

The things you mentioned are definitely good to do and continue. You might want to look into building some hobbies/skills or volunteer more in the community. Keep yourself involved in at least 2-3 different ECs outside of work maybe? The amount and type of ECs you need to be involved is not something that can be answered as its really diverse, but the more engaged you are the more it shows that you are a well-round individual. Check out the profiles of those that have been accepted to check out what an accepted student looks like (ofc don't get too overly attached, they are only a small group of the entire cohort) Obviously don't neglect GPA, GPA is #1 priority.