ENT Salary

[Edict]

5 minutes ago, whatisgoingon said:

Highly unlikely :p 

I am finding it really difficult to make a choice when my interest/passion does not seem to align with what I would like to get out of life outside of the hospital... Was it easy for you to choose?

It wasn't easy for myself as well, still debating this now. I think unfortunately, we all have to choose. I chose the interest/passion path and am faced with the same decision again, but the sacrifice is going to be even greater. 

At the end of the day though, it is your life, so you should always choose what makes you happy. 

[Edict]

2 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

I know people working ER in GTA.

Okay, so yeah GTA its possible particularly in some centers. Many GTA centers are very busy with high volumes. But I would not say these numbers are generalizable. ER at Trillium or William Osler is just not going to pay the same as ER in most other cities. But that is an important caveat. Sure, some ER docs who are willing to work hard at the right center can make a lot, but that still means that only a few select people are making those numbers and leaves a lot of room for the "average" ER doc across Canada to make closer to 300k. 

[offmychestplease]

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[blah1234]

On 8/16/2020 at 1:14 PM, Edict said:

I would only expect those numbers at certain busy centers, can you share your sources? 

I agree. Would only see those numbers in rare cases I feel. My friends who work ER full time are more in the 300-400 range and they do the usual 12-15 shifts/month. I feel like you would need some sort of favorable shadow billing set up as many places don't have the compensation structure to support those numbers. Also if it is shadow billing you are grinding through patients and I don't know how you can keep up that pace long-term. I'm more interested a number that represents a sustainable work schedule for the majority of medical students rather than some theoretical max. If I covered call every weekend and took on more weekday call I could make a lot more (2x, 3x?) but that's not at all realistic (at least for my practice or for my energy levels). A random tangent but I'm already seeing my ER friends "burnout" and while I think it's a great career for many people it does take its toll on many.

[Edict]

On 8/16/2020 at 1:26 PM, offmychestplease said:

This chart also says that PMR is 175K after overhead, IM is 200K after overhead, and Derm is 225K after overhead. Anyone in these fields or knows the reality will understand these are all laughably wrong. This goes for every field on this chart. All I will say is to always remember the motivation behind why published reports from medical associations are always greatly deflated.

It is also possible, if they are doing "medians" not mean's it could decrease the influence of some high billing outliers. Derm is a bit different because they also do bill private. The other thing if you look at the Torstar, you'll be surprised at the number of doctors who bill 50-150k. There are a lot of doctors nearing retirement as well who scale back but still work. They may be working part time. Again, no one talks about the part-time doctors but they are at least as common as the high billers and that is influencing the numbers. 

[rmorelan]

11 hours ago, Edict said:

It is also possible, if they are doing "medians" not mean's it could decrease the influence of some high billing outliers. Derm is a bit different because they also do bill private. The other thing if you look at the Torstar, you'll be surprised at the number of doctors who bill 50-150k. There are a lot of doctors nearing retirement as well who scale back but still work. They may be working part time. Again, no one talks about the part-time doctors but they are at least as common as the high billers and that is influencing the numbers. 

yeah exactly - this forum often has this "high income" group asking those sorts of questions. What is the max, what do I have to do to get the max......

I will tell you that there are a ton of doctors that go the other way. Loans paid off and suddenly they are at 150K a year which for a person is over TWICE the average canadian household income - and they may have a partner also working for another chunk of money. You can have a great life with that. Absolutely wonderful life - particularly if you have only 3-4 days of work a week (every week is a long weekend at least), and slap on a huge bunch of vacation on top. Partner up with someone with the same mindset and bamp - split a practice. Time for staying healthy, time to travel a ton (man so much travel), time to raise a family the way you want.......

Priorities - you have to figure out what you actually want, and then go from there. Defaulting to income maximization at all costs is often not a well thought out route (unless it is a part of a bigger plan - like going all in for 10 years save like crazy and then back way up). No right or wrong answer, UNLESS the figured out goal doesn't match the actual plan. Mismatch between the two is quite common - mismatch causes pain. We really don't think enough about this sort of stuff. 

Side note - almost all of the happiest doctors I know did some kind of reduced work plan as soon as they could - in radiology that was often 80% salary. Again 4 days a week vs 5 make s huge difference. again long weekend every weekend (or as one did it mon, tues, day off, thurs, fri weekend off. She was extreme active fitness wise and really had the time for it). 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by rmorelan

[blah1234]

4 hours ago, rmorelan said:

yeah exactly - this forum often has this "high income" group asking those sorts of questions. What is the max, what do I have to do to get the max......

I will tell you that there are a ton of doctors that go the other way. Loans paid off and suddenly they are like well 150K a year for a person is over TWICE the average canadian household income - and they may have a partner also working for another chunk of money. You can have a great life with that. Absolutely wonderful life - particularly if you have only 3-4 days of work a week (every week is a long weekend at least), and slap on a huge bunch of vacation on top. Partner up with someone with the same mindset and bamp - split a practise. Time for staying healthy, time to travel a ton (man so much travel), time to raise a family the way you want.......

Priorities - you have to figure out what you actually want, and then go from there. Defaulting to income maximization at all costs is often not a well thought out route (unless it is a part of a bigger plan - like going all in for 10 years save like crazy and then back way up). No right or wrong answer, UNLESS the figured out goal doesn't match the actual plan. Mismatch between the two is quite common - mismatch causes pain. We really don't think enough about this sort of stuff. 

Side note - almost all of the happiest doctors I know did some kind of reduced work plan as soon as they could - in radiology that was often 80% salary. Again 4 days a week vs 5 make s huge difference. again long weekend every weekend (or as one did it mon, tues, day off, thurs, fri weekend off. She was extreme active fitness wise and really had the time for it). 

 

 

This is exactly it. A lot of my colleagues and I do not go hard on maximizing income because in medicine that often means grueling patient loads and long work hours. I know someone who is an outlier in their field and having seen them practice it's not something that the majority of medical students could handle.

[rmorelan]

10 hours ago, blah1234 said:

This is exactly it. A lot of my colleagues and I do not go hard on maximizing income because in medicine that often means grueling patient loads and long work hours. I know someone who is an outlier in their field and having seen them practice it's not something that the majority of medical students could handle.

and probably in particular not possible long term. 

It is easy to just say I will work the max until you look down the tunnel of zero free time for a decade and really understand what that means. Constantly fighting to handle all the inevitable things that pop up. It is also a great way to ruin your family life (which is a great way to complete invalidate anything financially you were trying to do with the crazy work system)

It is also for almost everyone so unnecessary.  There is such a thing as "enough"

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by rmorelan

[blah1234]

3 hours ago, rmorelan said:

and probably in particular not handle long term. 

It is easy to just say I will work the max until you look down the tunnel of zero free time for a decade and really understand what that means. Constantly fighting to handle all the enviable things that pop up. It is also a great way to ruin your family life (which is a great way to complete invalidate anything financially you were trying to do with the crazy work system)

It is also for almost everyone so unnecessary.  There is such a thing as "enough"

 

Another outlier I know absolutely kills it (I know from conversations but also just mental math of billing codes) but guess what he loses a lot of it in child payments, alimony, etc.

Financially, I don't think he does much better than me (if at all) and works way harder too

[rmorelan]

5 hours ago, blah1234 said:

Another outlier I know absolutely kills it (I know from conversations but also just mental math of billing codes) but guess what he loses a lot of it in child payments, alimony, etc.

Financially, I don't think he does much better than me (if at all) and works way harder too

Ha, well that is the case in point. That just sounds like a lot of spinning wheels. The point of money is to be able to DO something - and I am pretty sure his original plan was not to be doing that.