B.C. Election 2020: NDP pledges second medical school at Surrey SFU campus

[Redpill]

https://vancouversun.com/news/b-c-election-2020-ndp-pledges-second-medical-school-at-surrey-sfu-campus

Looks like BC might be getting a new medical school...

Was a bit surprised about this as I thought the plan was to create a distributed site at SFU from the UBC program, like the UVic, UBCO, and UNBC sites. The NDP seem favoured to win so this has a good chance of becoming a reality.

Personally I think BC could save a bunch of money by just increasing residencies and poaching trainees from Alberta...

[JohnGrisham]

18 hours ago, Redpill said:

https://vancouversun.com/news/b-c-election-2020-ndp-pledges-second-medical-school-at-surrey-sfu-campus

Looks like BC might be getting a new medical school...

Was a bit surprised about this as I thought the plan was to create a distributed site at SFU from the UBC program, like the UVic, UBCO, and UNBC sites. The NDP seem favoured to win so this has a good chance of becoming a reality.

Personally I think BC could save a bunch of money by just increasing residencies and poaching trainees from Alberta...

Not familiar with the politics of things, but this is obviously not a real plan.    The article doesn't even make sense, how can they open up a medical school that fast? 

This is clearly a classic example of promising the world, without actually understanding how things work.    Political showmanship with zero substance.

[bearded frog]

Good, a new medical school would be terrible without increased residency/clinical infrastructure.

[ShadesofCyan]

It looks like they are serious about making an SFU Medical School Happen. https://www.sfu.ca/dashboard/faculty-staff/news/2021/10/sfu-begins-engagement-on-proposed-medical-program.html

[frenchpress]

49 minutes ago, ShadesofCyan said:

It looks like they are serious about making an SFU Medical School Happen. https://www.sfu.ca/dashboard/faculty-staff/news/2021/10/sfu-begins-engagement-on-proposed-medical-program.html

There’s barely enough clinical rotations to go around as it is at UBC for third year, and enormous competition across the province for some speciality electives, including ‘common’ things like family med. Students in Vancouver are already going as far as Abbotsford for regular clerkship rotations, and technically Chilliwack if you include ICC. And there isn’t really capacity to increase the number of medical students at several of the Fraser Health sites (Surrey, RCH, Abbotsford, Chilliwack) without starting to compete for clinical time with the family medicine residency programs there. I can’t imagine how they could possibly make this happen unless they are planning to decrease the number of seats at the UBC Vancouver campus. Not to mention lack of any apparent plans to increase residency spots. 
 

If the NDP wants more doctors they should be increasing residency training spots and making the pay structure for generalists and family doctors more competitive to attract doctors to BC. More medical students in isolation isn’t going to fix anything. 

[indefatigable]

21 minutes ago, frenchpress said:

There’s barely enough clinical rotations to go around as it is at UBC for third year, and enormous competition across the province for some speciality electives, including ‘common’ things like family med. Students in Vancouver are already going as far as Abbotsford for regular clerkship rotations, and technically Chilliwack if you include ICC. And there isn’t really capacity to increase the number of medical students at several of the Fraser Health sites (Surrey, RCH, Abbotsford, Chilliwack) without starting to compete for clinical time with the family medicine residency programs there. I can’t imagine how they could possibly make this happen unless they are planning to decrease the number of seats at the UBC Vancouver campus. Not to mention lack of any apparent plans to increase residency spots. 

If the NDP wants more doctors they should be increasing residency training spots and making the pay structure for generalists and family doctors more competitive to attract doctors to BC. More medical students in isolation isn’t going to fix anything. 

Insightful analysis.  

I wonder how much is a combination of political posturing (creating the appearance of "doing something" towards an issue) with uni admin seeing a chance to build their empire (and funding).  

[frenchpress]

14 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

Insightful analysis.  

I wonder how much is a combination of political posturing (creating the appearance of "doing something" towards an issue) with uni admin seeing a chance to build their empire (and funding).  

I’d say basically all of it. You’ll note that no where in the SFU notice are they talking about engaging with the existing program at UBC. 

[shikimate]

"SFU has been engaged with the province around a medical school at SFU for more than a decade."

lol so after a decade of talking they're just "begins engagement"?

I bet SPCE would sent William Shatner to Mars before SFU gets a medical school.

[jb24]

Dix mentioned something about training NP's at this SFU "medical school"

[Edict]

When I heard Ryerson was going to have a new medical school in Brampton which is only an entire hour away from the university itself and York which is actually surrounded by community hospitals that could serve as a base site and has been asking for a medical school for years will not, I just lost all hope in common sense. I wonder which RyeHigh administrator got chummy with Ford to pull this BS off. 

[zoxy]

1 hour ago, Edict said:

When I heard Ryerson was going to have a new medical school in Brampton which is only an entire hour away from the university itself and York which is actually surrounded by community hospitals that could serve as a base site and has been asking for a medical school for years will not, I just lost all hope in common sense. I wonder which RyeHigh administrator got chummy with Ford to pull this BS off. 

It's only at a proposal stage. The reason it's proposed to be in Brampton is because Brampton kicked in 1 million for the proposal, the same amount that the Ontario government pitched in.

Anyway, a new medical school, additional residency spots for its graduates, and the billings of the newly minted physicians would put a significant fiscal strain on the Ontario government. The ON government just ran a 39 billion dollar deficit in 2020-21. Health care spending is 38 percent of the provincial budget and growing with the aging population. The Ontario government and Ontario doctors have been at loggerheads over pay, irrespective of the governing party, for the past decade.

Ontario's debt per capita is the second highest in Canada after bankrupt NL. With inflation at an 18 year high at 4.4, the Bank of Canada has no choice but to increase interest rates shortly. This will put a huge strain on the indebted provinces of ON, QC, NL, and the Maritime provinces. Only BC, SK, and potentially AB if oil prices hold steady, are in decent fiscal shape. There is no money for new medical schools anywhere in Canada, particularly not in Ontario.

Doug is all talk to and no action anyway. He'll talk about building new medical schools and having more doctors every day and twice on Sundays. But when it'll come to paying for it, he'll suddenly forget that he advocated for it. 

[Edict]

1 hour ago, zoxy said:

It's only at a proposal stage. The reason it's proposed to be in Brampton is because Brampton kicked in 1 million for the proposal, the same amount that the Ontario government pitched in.

Anyway, a new medical school, additional residency spots for its graduates, and the billings of the newly minted physicians would put a significant fiscal strain on the Ontario government. The ON government just ran a 39 billion dollar deficit in 2020-21. Health care spending is 38 percent of the provincial budget and growing with the aging population. The Ontario government and Ontario doctors have been at loggerheads over pay, irrespective of the governing party, for the past decade.

Ontario's debt per capita is the second highest in Canada after bankrupt NL. With inflation at an 18 year high at 4.4, the Bank of Canada has no choice but to increase interest rates shortly. This will put a huge strain on the indebted provinces of ON, QC, NL, and the Maritime provinces. Only BC, SK, and potentially AB if oil prices hold steady, are in decent fiscal shape. There is no money for new medical schools anywhere in Canada, particularly not in Ontario.

Doug is all talk to and no action anyway. He'll talk about building new medical schools and having more doctors every day and twice on Sundays. But when it'll come to paying for it, he'll suddenly forget that he advocated for it. 

That's good to know. I hope this proposal fails. I do think the GTA can use another medical school but I think York is probably best suited given it's location and I don't think there should be any rush to fund one either. 

[zoxy]

1 hour ago, Edict said:

That's good to know. I hope this proposal fails. I do think the GTA can use another medical school but I think York is probably best suited given it's location and I don't think there should be any rush to fund one either. 

It will in all likelihood fail. York's been trying for a school since at least 08 and they didn't get one in much better fiscal times. Opening a brand new school with the requisite LMCC accreditation will require far more money than adding positions at already established schools. Especially since a Brampton campus would be smack dab between UofT and McMaster and wouldn't really add much in terms of geographical diversity and serving underprivileged populations. It would make much more sense to just expand UofT's Missassauga campus, which is next to Brampton, than to build a new school in that area. When Quebec added new spots because of the pandemic, they just added them to their existing schools rather than building a new school. Same thing at UBC with their distributed sites since 2000.

Since the early 70's when UofC, MUN, McMaster and Sherbrooke got new medical schools, there's been a single new medical school established in Canada. NOSM in 05 and that's due to how under served Northern Ontario is. Ryerson or even York getting a new medical school with the current fiscal situation would truly surprise me.

I don't even think that spots will be added at existing schools. The government will try to starve the healthcare beast by limiting the number of physicians, not expanding them. It's already been done once before in Ontario. In "1993, under the Bob Rae NDP government the first-year medical-school class at the University of Toronto went from 252 to 177." In 2002, Ontario had 12.0 million people, a median age of 38.0, and 692 medical school seats. In 2021, Ontario has 14.7 million people, a median age of 40.7 and 758 medical school spots. Not to mentioned the 65+ population has increased from 13 percent of the population to 17.5 percent.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/york-steps-up-med-school-push/article671157/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/letters/cutting-medical-students/article985864/

[offmychestplease]

relevant thread

 

[zoxy]

11 hours ago, offmychestplease said:

relevant thread

 

Wow, I was unaware of this. Apparently the two Alberta schools had 342 graduates participating in CaRMS in 2013 and 2014. According to the AFMC, In rhe 2021 admission cycle, the UofA had 162 seats and UofC had 150 for a total of 312 across the two schools.  That's a 9 percent decline in spots despite Alberta's population increasing by 10 percent between 2013 and 2021 alone. And Kenney and Shandro are still fighting doctors.

[Redpill]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:15 AM, jb24 said:

Dix mentioned something about training NP's at this SFU "medical school"

This doesn't surprise me. The NDP have really been pushing NPs in their new primary care networks, their end goal seems to be to replace all GPs with NPs, I assume because they (erroneously) think that will be cheaper for the system.

I'm almost expecting to announce in 2022 that this new "medical school" will exclusively train "primary care practitioners", which we'll find out in a couple years means NPs. They've already said they want to see more training in clinics over hospitals, obviously they don't think the acute care training is important to an outpatient practice.

SFU posted a video updating the community on their work, see more info here:

 

[indefatigable]

1 hour ago, Redpill said:

They've already said they want to see more training in clinics over hospitals, obviously they don't think the acute care training is important to an outpatient practice.

They basically say that from minute 12:30 to 17.  I'm really not sure how strong their understanding of medical education/system is since most acute rotations are part of a mandatory curriculum.  But, they also mention "general internists and surgeons" as part of their "primary care" network - obviously normally considered "specialists" and would be difficult to develop to train without acute exposure.  

[frenchpress]

1 hour ago, indefatigable said:

They basically say that from minute 12:30 to 17.  I'm really not sure how strong their understanding of medical education/system is since most acute rotations are part of a mandatory curriculum.  But, they also mention "general internists and surgeons" as part of their "primary care" network - obviously normally considered "specialists" and would be difficult to develop to train without acute exposure.  

Yeah this whole presentation feels very vague on substance or understanding. They mention talking with the health authorities, but not really doctors. It’s not clear they understand the accreditation requirements at all. It’s hard to train any kind of generalist without acute exposure.

[jb24]

3 hours ago, indefatigable said:

They basically say that from minute 12:30 to 17.  I'm really not sure how strong their understanding of medical education/system is since most acute rotations are part of a mandatory curriculum.  But, they also mention "general internists and surgeons" as part of their "primary care" network - obviously normally considered "specialists" and would be difficult to develop to train without acute exposure.  

General internists and general surgeons aren't primary care. Theres also no shortage of general surgeons, although there is a shortage of jobs. Odd proposal overall. I have a feeling UBC will nix this from happening, considering they are affiliated with all of the Fraser hospitals.

[Redpill]

25 minutes ago, jb24 said:

General internists and general surgeons aren't primary care. Theres also no shortage of general surgeons, although there is a shortage of jobs. Odd proposal overall. I have a feeling UBC will nix this from happening, considering they are affiliated with all of the Fraser hospitals.

Unfortunately UBC doesn't really have a say in what the province decides to fund. And if the province decides to give more money to the Fraser Health Authority I doubt they'd decline it

[offmychestplease]

.

[frenchpress]

27 minutes ago, Redpill said:

Unfortunately UBC doesn't really have a say in what the province decides to fund. And if the province decides to give more money to the Fraser Health Authority I doubt they'd decline it

No UBC doesn't. But unless the province is ear marking the money they're giving to the FHA for SFU specifically, who knows how it actually gets spent. The FHA has also committed to provide dedicated spaces for a UBC medical school school clerkship cohort starting with the year 3s in 2024, and I suspect UBC did not agree to that without a long term commitment for spaces. 

[BCelectrophile]

I remember UNBC/ NMP was similarly first announced at first as “BC’s second medical school” before it later was confirmed as an extension of UBC distributed program.

The distributed sites are actually quite distinct from one another. While we share a curriculum and the MD will say UBC, we have eg. a UNBC student number and pay UNBC student fees. Each site has their own full complement of non-clinical staff (histo, anatomy profs, regional dean and assistant deans) who are UNBC employees. The cohorts do everything on their own after 1st semester. So it really isn’t that much of a stretch to call it “UNBC medical school” or “SFU medical school” as it stands. 

[BCelectrophile]

Ok so I did a bit of detective work for anyone interested. In addition to the SFU medical school announcements:

New UBC Surrey campus announced located right by Surrey Memorial - https://604now.com/ubc-campus-surrey-renderings-2021/

New Surrey Hospital announced to be built in Cloverdale -https://www.fraserhealth.ca/news/2019/Dec/its-official-second-hospital-coming-for-people-in-surrey#.YYa9VCRfMlQ

New Fraser Medical Cohort announced - 32 students out of the VFMP class will complete clerkship in Fraser valley https://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/2021/06/08/vancouver-fraser-medical-program-fraser-medical-cohort-year-3-clinical-clerkship/

Somehow seems like all these things are connected. Maybe we will get both a UBC Fraser cohort AND an SFU medical school 

[Redpill]

1 hour ago, BCelectrophile said:

Ok so I did a bit of detective work for anyone interested. In addition to the SFU medical school announcements:

New UBC Surrey campus announced located right by Surrey Memorial - https://604now.com/ubc-campus-surrey-renderings-2021/

New Surrey Hospital announced to be built in Cloverdale -https://www.fraserhealth.ca/news/2019/Dec/its-official-second-hospital-coming-for-people-in-surrey#.YYa9VCRfMlQ

New Fraser Medical Cohort announced - 32 students out of the VFMP class will complete clerkship in Fraser valley https://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/2021/06/08/vancouver-fraser-medical-program-fraser-medical-cohort-year-3-clinical-clerkship/

Somehow seems like all these things are connected. Maybe we will get both a UBC Fraser cohort AND an SFU medical school 

I don't know if its a big secret that there is a lot of expansion planned in Surrey - it is the fastest growing city in North America after all. There is also significant development planned for RCH. The entire Fraser region is going to see a lot more infrastructure over the next decade.

I think at this point if UBC decides to completely split off a cohort of students to Fraser for the full four years, it'll be done with existing spots, i.e. 32 of the 192 from the current VFMP site. I doubt the government will fund more spots at this time.