GTA = automatic rejection?

[NorthernDude]

I'd rather drives hundreds of miles to seek a "city" doctor than go to a underqualified doctor in a rural community, with mediocre undergraduate marks, who happened to beat out other highly qualified "city" applicants because of where they grew up. Gimme a break!

 

.....I think there's a strong implication there..Perhaps I'm reading too much between the lines.

[iwonder]

"Underqualified"=Less educated

"Mediocre undergraduate marks"=Less intelligent

 

These things are clearly implied!!

 

Is it possible that there are highly qualified applicants with above average undergraduate grades and a superior ABS who also happen to be from a northern/rural community?????

 

YES!!!!!!! And they are the ones NOSM is looking for.

[IgJ]

The implications are there, but A for effort on the backpedal.

 

Also just some information for people who aren't very familiar with NOSM but who like to think they are:

 

NOSM has the same accrediation standards as all Canadian and US medical school hence NOSM students can apply to and enter the postgraduate programs of their choosing, not just family medicine and community-based specialities. We will have a special skill set for working with rural, northern urban and underserviced populations (and I think most NOSM students would prefer to work with them), but there are no restrictions in that regard. Our relative ability to compete for subspecialties in major urban centres is yet to be determined but will likely depend on the perceptions and misperceptions postgraduate directors have about NOSM more than anything.

 

NOSM is also the most difficult school to get into in Canada numbers-wise with just over a 1/40 chance. For two years straight we also have the highest first-round acceptance rate and the fewest offers of admission to waitlisted candidates. Our average GPA of entering students is higher than the Canadian average. And even though most of our students have lived in rural or northern communities, most of us have also lived in and/or received a degree in large urban centres.

 

Not saying anyone on here is an unsuccessful applicant, but those who are should stop blaming the admissions process for being discriminatory and realize that the competition is extremely stiff.

 

Also I find that people who use the word "discriminatory" to refer to medical school admissions criteria often have no idea what discrimination is.

[DrJaneDoe]

.....I think there's a strong implication there..Perhaps I'm reading too much between the lines.

ummm if you didn't notice that was a hypothetical situation of a student with low marks from a rural community getting in compared to someone who is from the city with higher marks

 

i have never said that ALL rural medical students are underqualified, see the difference? you're not reading between the lines, you're reading things you want to read not what is actually being said

 

and to all those rural students that are acting with so much defense, and keep bringing up the idea that everyone else is attacking them and calling them less intelligence, it's all in your head, obviously you feel some inferioritiy that you constantly have to bring this issue up, when nobody has explicitly mentioned it

[DrJaneDoe]

"Underqualified"=Less educated

"Mediocre undergraduate marks"=Less intelligent

 

These things are clearly implied!!

 

Is it possible that there are highly qualified applicants with above average undergraduate grades and a superior ABS who also happen to be from a northern/rural community?????

 

YES!!!!!!! And they are the ones NOSM is looking for.

 

 

yes, again read what i wrote to the other poster

 

you don't seem to understand my argument, when someone with a 3.3 wgpa gets into NOSM as compared to someone FOR EXAMPLE with a wgpa of 3.6 (assuming all else is equal) just because they are from a rural community, that's what bothers mean

 

there is no mention of the fact that all rural students who got into NOSM are less intelligent

[DrJaneDoe]

The implications are there, but A for effort on the backpedal.

 

Also just some information for people who aren't very familiar with NOSM but who like to think they are:

 

NOSM has the same accrediation standards as all Canadian and US medical school hence NOSM students can apply to and enter the postgraduate programs of their choosing, not just family medicine and community-based specialities. We will have a special skill set for working with rural, northern urban and underserviced populations (and I think most NOSM students would prefer to work with them), but there are no restrictions in that regard. Our relative ability to compete for subspecialties in major urban centres is yet to be determined but will likely depend on the perceptions and misperceptions postgraduate directors have about NOSM more than anything.

 

NOSM is also the most difficult school to get into in Canada numbers-wise with just over a 1/40 chance. For two years straight we also have the highest first-round acceptance rate and the fewest offers of admission to waitlisted candidates. Our average GPA of entering students is higher than the Canadian average. And even though most of our students have lived in rural or northern communities, most of us have also lived in and/or received a degree in large urban centres.

 

Not saying anyone on here is an unsuccessful applicant, but those who are should stop blaming the admissions process for being discriminatory and realize that the competition is extremely stiff.

 

Also I find that people who use the word "discriminatory" to refer to medical school admissions criteria often have no idea what discrimination is.

 

discrimination -treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination. source: dictionary.com

 

"however we give preference to rural applicants , this rejection is in no way a reflection on your strength as an applicant, in fact, the average GPA for the candidate receiving an interview is 3.6." NOSM

 

preference is the key word, a synonym of favour which as mentioned above is also used to define the word discrimination

 

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about the word discrimination because as far as I am concerned, it works well in this context

[drcameron]

Maybe you should write a letter to the government and take up your issues with them. Afterall, the creation and mandate of NOSM are rooted in government identification of a need for this medical school to help fill the physician shortage. It is possible the selection process is not perfect, but it is obviously viewed as the most appropriate way to deal with this issue at this point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy, the purpose is to contribute to the greater good. You just have to deal with it!

[DrJaneDoe]

Maybe you should write a letter to the government and take up your issues with them. Afterall, the creation and mandate of NOSM are rooted in government identification of a need for this medical school to help fill the physician shortage. It is possible the selection process is not perfect, but it is obviously viewed as the most appropriate way to deal with this issue at this point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy, the purpose is to contribute to the greater good. You just have to deal with it!

 

this isn't an issue about making people happy, we're not dealing with a less important issue such as what colour NOSM should paint its schools' walls =/

 

we're dealing with people's futures here! would you be content if the prime minister said "well i can't make everyone happy, just deal with it"?? Isn't it the government's responsibility to ensure everyone's happiness and rights?

[drcameron]

OK, then like I said...maybe you should write a letter to the government and they will ensure your happiness.

 

The rest of the post is my personal opinion. It is also my opinion that NOSM's admissions criteria are not going to directly ruin anyone's future.

 

It sounds like you were denied admission by this school and have decided to take out your anger here? I could be wrong though. Would you be expressing this opinion if you had been accepted?

[DrJaneDoe]

OK, then like I said...maybe you should write a letter to the government and they will ensure your happiness.

 

The rest of the post is my personal opinion. It is also my opinion that NOSM's admissions criteria are not going to directly ruin anyone's future.

 

It sounds like you were denied admission by this school and have decided to take out your anger here? I could be wrong though. Would you be expressing this opinion if you had been accepted?

Actually I haven't even applied

but i'm planning on applying this year (but then again I'm planning on applying everywhere in Ontario to increase my chances, NOSM isn't my first choice, Mac is)

 

if I don't get my top 5 choices, but I get accepted to NOSM I'll go, nobody would be foolish enough to not accept especially because of the immense competition.

 

and about taking out my anger on here haha far from it, if I haven't been rejected yet then there's no need for me to be angry. And why does criticizing something automatically translate into being angry???

 

Let me guess, you're defending NOSM because you go there right??

[dialntin]

Also I find that people who use the word "discriminatory" to refer to medical school admissions criteria often have no idea what discrimination is.

 

Your finding is just that, perhaps an opinion at best.

[Kidha]

I must say that everyone is bringing up some interesting points here. However, I would hope that people do not start making assumptions on what others are saying or purposely attacking individuals.

 

The whole issue of discrimination is interesting. According to some definitions I guess that discrimination may apply, if this is true and we find it to be true the bigger question is "Is intentional discrimination ever justified". However, the issue for many of us will be deciding if this is a case of discrimination.

 

What if urban schools said that they favored urban applicants because they adjust better to urban communities than there rural counterparts, would this be acceptable? Imagine UofT saying that they are short of Doctors in Toronto (which is true) and that they will recruit people only from Toronto as it is most likely that they will remain in Toronto upon completion of their studies. I want to Know if you guys think this would be the same thing. If not how is it different?

 

Keep it clean folks

[DrJaneDoe]

I must say that everyone is bringing up some interesting points here. However, I would hope that people do not start making assumptions on what others are saying or purposely attacking individuals.

 

The whole issue of discrimination is interesting. According to some definitions I guess that discrimination may apply, if this is true and we find it to be true the bigger question is "Is intentional discrimination ever justified". However, the issue for many of us will be deciding if this is a case of discrimination.

 

What if urban schools said that they favored urban applicants because they adjust better to urban communities than there rural counterparts, would this be acceptable? Imagine UofT saying that they are short of Doctors in Toronto (which is true) and that they will recruit people only from Toronto as it is most likely that they will remain in Toronto upon completion of their studies. I want to Know if you guys think this would be the same thing. If not how is it different?

 

Keep it clean folks

I brought this exact scenario up in a previous post and it's no different, it would be the same, no school should be favouring one group over the other

[NurseNathalie]

Heavy discussion!

 

Giving a slight advantage to those from Northern Ontario does not mean that ONLY Northern ON students are accepted (as demonstrated by the make-up of the last 2 classes)... I personally don't think there is any form of 'discrimination' or bias... every school has its own selection process criteria (some are just not in the public eye). NOSM is just trying to fullfil what it was mandated to do.

 

I also disagree with the statement that : 'someone from Northern ON with a much lower GPA is accepted before applicants with high GPAs from urban centers'. There are SO many factors that come into play into the selection process (GPA being one)... but there's also experience and the interview, etc. I think its unfair to judge, when we don't have all the facts.

 

I think the school has done an amazing job so far... and I'm looking forward to when they can increase their enrollment numbers.. it is a great thing for Northern Ontario!

 

Northern dude: impressed by your posts..

[Kidha]

There is much more than a "slight" advantage if you are from Northern Ontario, infact it is a significant advantage. This I speak from experience. I know of at least 3 students including myself that had higher than the average gpa of the classes getting in, furthermore, all of us were told that our interview scores were strong. My follow up interview - the person told me to do exactly what I had done that year next year and eventually told me that my score was very competitive and ranked top half.

 

I know I might sound like I am whining but seriously I am not. I just hate it when people say that there is NOT an advantage. I do not want Non NO students to think that they are on equal footing or close to. In reality you are not and those that are not from NO that have gotten in are way above the average in gpa, xcurricular, and interview. This reflects the beliefs of at least a few NOSM students that I have talked to. Keep it real.

 

NN I was wondering why you choose Mac over NOSM. I know you love NOSM and NO what were your deciding factors (answer only if not too personal).

[DrJaneDoe]

Heavy discussion!

 

Giving a slight advantage to those from Northern Ontario does not mean that ONLY Northern ON students are accepted (as demonstrated by the make-up of the last 2 classes)... I personally don't think there is any form of 'discrimination' or bias... every school has its own selection process criteria (some are just not in the public eye). NOSM is just trying to fullfil what it was mandated to do.

 

I also disagree with the statement that : 'someone from Northern ON with a much lower GPA is accepted before applicants with high GPAs from urban centers'. There are SO many factors that come into play into the selection process (GPA being one)... but there's also experience and the interview, etc. I think its unfair to judge, when we don't have all the facts.

 

I think the school has done an amazing job so far... and I'm looking forward to when they can increase their enrollment numbers.. it is a great thing for Northern Ontario!

 

Northern dude: impressed by your posts..

 

ummm reading a few posts down, someone mentioned that they were from rural ontario, and they got an interview at NOSM with a gpa 3.3, and the person was pretty surprised that they even stood a chance. Even with stellar extra curriculars and experience a 3.3 is pretty low....

[DrJaneDoe]

citta quote: "just got an interview invite - so surprised / excited / nervous!

 

3.3 gpa, lots of EC, from NO (but queen's for undergrad)... surprised due to the low gpa...

 

so no choice in interview date/time? t-bday is quite a trek from here!"

[xylem29]

I think that what NOSM is doing is just fine. In fact, when asked about how to solve the rural shortage, I mentioned that having a school whose mandate was to graduate rural physicians is a good start.

 

I recognize that these underserved communities need physicians, and I have no problems with NOSM's mandate - which necessarily requires that they recruit students from rural communities b/c studies have shown that rural students are more likely to return to rural communities (that, or they force every student to sign a contract that requires them to practice in rural ON for a certain number of years, obviously this is not a good option) - it may not always be the case, be the key word is "more likely". This seems to be the best way to address the shortage so far. There are so many other schools out there, and NOSM is only one - why are you so disgruntled at their admissions policy, given their mandate and the reason the school was created in the first place?

 

And to add my 2 cents - giving preference is the same thing as discriminating or bias. In the cases of Maritime "preference", SWOMEN "preference", Ottawa resident francophone/billingual "preference", Rural "preference", and In province "preference" - of course, the schools have a mission, a purpose, and a GOAL of admitting MORE "preferred" students. As a result, they will have to (and indeed DO) devise a scoring system that discriminates/biases or whatever you want to call it, against students that are not from any of their "preferred" categories. Do I have a problem with this? Of course not, it's not like this is discrimination based on race or religion or sex or something. In the case of the Maritimes, if there were no selection preference and all spots were opened to all Canadians, then it may very well result in the majority of their class being filled by Ontario residents who will likely leave the Maritimes after graduation. If you look at thes schools with IP quotas - such as Memorial and Manitoba, you'll notice that the OOP applicants always outnumber the IP applicants to start, so if they didn't have a discriminating admissions policy, their classes would be likely filled with OOP students just due to random chance. To say there is no bias or discrimination, is a bit naive - since these schools make it blatantly clear what their mission is and what their admissions policies are. They make it VERY CLEAR on their website that if you are not from a "prefered" category, you are indeed subjected to higher GPA and MCAT standards - and when they post the average gpa and MCAT scores of matriculating students, broken down by "prefered" and "non-prefered", there is always a discrepancy b/w the averages where the students from the "prefered" categories have the lower averages -> there is a bias. But I think it is justified.

[Jwells]

I fully agree with xylem29. Medical schools have always been biased in their selection criteria, and rightfully so. They have a specific purpose in mind, more specific than to simply educate great physicians.

 

I am amazed to see NOSM be under attack for its Northern Onario prefference. I imagine most of those complaining must be Ontario residents who feel they should be entitled to attend NOSM simply because they live in Ontario. That's what I call a double standard! If I'm wrong are those who are complaining are not Ontario residents, why aren't you complaining about the entrance selection of most every Canadian medical school?

[IgJ]

again, the research shows that rural students are underrepresented at Canadian medical schools in general. why is that not discrimination, but NOSM's admissions criteria are?

[xylem29]

again, the research shows that rural students are underrepresented at Canadian medical schools in general. why is that not discrimination, but NOSM's admissions criteria are?

 

I'm sorry but that is definitely not discrimination. What kind of logic are you using here? Simply because rural students are underrepresented does not mean they are discriminated against - it could be because of many different reasons. The most likely reason, is that - b/c rural areas are less populous than urban areas, there will likely be less rural students applying to medicine compared with urban students. For instance, aborginal students are given "special consideration" when applying to medical school, but they are still VERY underrepresented - is this b/c they are discriminated against? I doubt it, there just aren't as many aboringinal applicants as there are other applicants.

 

I am not aware of any medical schools that discriminate against rural students - they only receive preferential consideration. I think even the OMSAS application asks if you wish to declare your rural status. I think that, universally in Canada - the groups of rural, disadvantaged, and Aborginal students all get special consideration in the admissions process. How much consideration or extra points/reduced standard each group receives probably varies with each school and province (or provinces in the case of the Maritimes).

[xylem29]

Wouldn't it be odd if for example Ottawa had a ladder of GPA cut-offs depending on whether the applicant was Franco-Ontarien, from the Outaouais region, from an underserviced area, etc, etc, etc?

 

Wouldn't it be odd if for example UWO was more flexible on MCAT cut-offs for residents of SW Ontario than for other applicants?

 

Wouldn't it be odd if for example U Manitoba reserved 90% of the seats in the class for residents of Manitoba?

 

Wouldn't it be odd if for example U Calgary gave preference to Albertan applicants?

 

 

Include in there, 20% of class reserved for rural students. The 10% of seats for OOP have also been opened up to Thunderbay applicants - who are considered both IP and Rural...can't get more discriminatory than that. Allowing OOP seats to be open for students who have the advantage of being assessed as IP and Rural...

[IgJ]

by underrepresented i don't mean fewer rural medical students total, i mean a number that is disproportionately lower than the number of rural people in the population.

 

and you're right, there are no medical schools i'm aware of that have criteria that explicitly select against rural students.

 

the problem is systemic and ingrained, which when you think about it, is worse.

 

rural populations in canada have lower educational levels, lower average income and higher unemployment on average. rural students have less financial opportunity to go to post-secondary education on average and fewer opportunities to get the same kind of extra-curricular experiences, go to the private schools, win the right awards, or make the right connections as urban students. obviously lots of rural students make it and many go on to the very top of their fields, but on average it's a bit tougher.

 

medical school admissions criteria that give an advantage to rural students are an attempt to restock rural areas with physicians, but they also recognize that the traditional concept of a great med school application does not favour students with a rural background.

[xylem29]

by underrepresented i don't mean fewer rural medical students total, i mean a number that is disproportionately lower than the number of rural people in the population.

 

and you're right, there are no medical schools i'm aware of that have criteria that explicitly select against rural students.

 

the problem is systemic and ingrained, which when you think about it, is worse.

 

rural populations in canada have lower educational levels, lower average income and higher unemployment on average. rural students have less financial opportunity to go to post-secondary education on average and fewer opportunities to get the same kind of extra-curricular experiences, go to the private schools, win the right awards, or make the right connections as urban students. obviously lots of rural students make it and many go on to the very top of their fields, but on average it's a bit tougher.

 

medical school admissions criteria that give an advantage to rural students are an attempt to restock rural areas with physicians, but they also recognize that the traditional concept of a great med school application does not favour students with a rural background.

 

Interesting point - when you mention "systemic discrimination", that makes it very complex. Perhaps you are correct in saying that the "rural advantage" is given b/c schools recognize the systemic discrimination.

 

I think this systemic discrimination is due to capitalism. I'm not an expert, so what I say might be simplistic or even ignorant, but I think that rural populations earn lower average wages b/c the local economies are not developed enough. They're not developed enough b/c they are underpopulated. The market in rural locations are too homogenous and are also not large enough for companies to invest in these areas. As a result, the areas are underdeveloped and few people want to move there, hence they are underpopulated and the cycle repeats. Simply based on geography, politics, and history - certain places were made into flourishing locations of opportunity while others were left behind and b/c of our free market economy, big ubran centres will always dominate b/c that's where the majority of people want to go and b/c that's where the largest and most diverse (not just ethnically but in terms individuality like people with certain fringe ashethics being large enough to create a specific niche for the enterprising mind) populations are, that is where all the $$$ is always going to go, privately especially and from the government as well.

 

as for the educational levels - what might be the reason for this? There probably isn't one reason, but a multitude of factors. I personally doubt though, that the system is responsible for this discrepancy in educational levels. I might be wrong, and I'd like you to tell me what you think.

[quickdraw_mcgraw]

Although it wasn't mentioned recently in this thread, there was talk of "huge" signing bonuses.

 

I've looked into these bonuses, they are anything but huge. They havn't changed since 1969. Now $10K/yr to max $40K was quite a bit back then, it is not now.

 

I wouldn't uproot my life for that and the government is stupid to think anyone would. But then again, the government manages healthcare, and it works so well.