GTA = automatic rejection?

[DrJaneDoe]

I agree with most of what you said - and I'm not sure if this is even a disagreement, or just my own opinion...another point added to yours if you will - however, I do not think that this discrimination can ever be eliminated. It is similar to what is being said and done in the US with URM groups, but not exactly the same - although I'm no expert and I don't know all the issues.

 

What I would like to say is that, in our society is based upon capitalism - there is always going to be inequalities. There are those who win and those who lose and unfortunately, despite the efforts of people like Bono, not everyone can get an equal piece of the pie. This is a fact of life, and is a result of how our society, locally and globally, functions. Systemic discrimination is something that is very difficult to eliminate, and I don't think that NOSM or the OMSAS box that you can check off to declare yourself rural will evne take us one little step closer towards equality for the disadvantaged - "disadvantaged" will always be with us, and while we can be more "fair" by taking this into account, to completely solve the problem is impossible. I know this is cynical....

 

you're completely right, but from what I have read, it seems as though the problem is not on how to make NOSM admission process more fair but that some people don't want to acknowledge in the first place the inequality and want to avoid the entire issue to begin with.

[DrJaneDoe]

"The argument that numerical scores make better physicians is a silly one. The purpose of a medical school is to train physicians - and I would hope they do not graduate poor ones. GPA requirements provide the schools with some indicators as to the type of student they are getting, but I fail to see how these factors define the type of doctor one will become. Just because you got an A in first-year chemistry and someone else got a B+ does not tell me who will be a better physician. Let's allow medical schools to decide who will be good doctors and allow them to do the necessary training - or maybe we should just award an MD to everyone with a 3.95 GPA and have them skip the whole med school routine? Also, the fact that schools do look at softer factors indicates that they recognize that how well you wrote a few exams when you were 19 is not fully-indicative of how you will perform in a program."

 

ummmmm than if the were the case then they should let everyone in, and train them. I don't understand where you're going with this statement, I fail to see what it has to do with the debate over why NOSM accepts fewer urban residents.

 

High grades may not DIRECTLY determine whether or not you will be a good doctor but it is indicative of other factors. More than likely, people with good grades have initiative, determination, and the hard work that comes along with being a good physician. Plus, grades are one way of standardizing students as well as the MCAT, they can't just let everyone in, that would be chaotic. And there are other factors that are looked at not just your grades, that's why many schools require you to write an essay, in order for them to get to know you better, the same goes with the interview portion as well.

[DrJaneDoe]

"In many ways this is society's way of discriminating - and perhaps NOMS is one way of closing the gap. Please don't bother with the argument that you had no control over this - it does not negate the fact that things may have been easier for you than for others. I also fully recognize that things may not have been easy for everyone, and many kids find a way to succeed despite facing roadblocks, but ideally (and I realize this may not be reality) will find a way to equalize - and maybe NOMS is the first step in doing this."

 

 

perhaps NOSM is one way of closing the Gap no it's called REVERSE DISCRIMINATION. You're doing exactly what you're trying not to advocate!

And I'm sorry but the statement that "things may have been easier for me" is quite the generalization and NOSM is the first step in equalizing this LOL I'm sorry it's "laughable" what huge generalizations you make. Most urban communities are widely diverse, people come from different backgrounds and no the opportunities are not all the same for all urbanites just because the city has everything doesn't mean that every person has access to it. If that were the case then why do we have poverty in Toronto for example?, seeing that we're better off and have more opportunities than why is there such a huge gap between the rich and poor in Toronto? Why don't all Torontonians go to University seeing that we have 3 in Toronto alone? You can't equalize something when you're advocating the same fallacies as the other party. Kinda like two wrongs don't make a right to put it simply.

[DrJaneDoe]

Hey all,

 

I'm a graduating law student who has been sort of thinking of applying to meds in the coming years, although I anticipate that I will stick with a career in the law. I just read through this entire thread and while I was somewhat disheartened by the immaturity and sense of entitlement displayed by some posters, I was also impressed to learn about how NOMS and the Ontario government is actually doing something to improve health-care in underserviced areas of this province.

 

While I do not think she is even worthy of being responded too, I just wanted to tell DrJaneDoe that she has a lot of growing up to do. You have expressed opinions that reek of an elitist attitude and a lack of respect for the true realities of Canadian society. Go ahead and backpedal and claim differently all you want, but this is my opinion and clearly the opinion of many of the posters on this board. If we are wrong, then may I suggest you take a course or two that emphasize written communication skills. Please do not bother to respond to this as I will not engage in a tit-for-tat discussion, I just hope that if you are going to be a physician that you will be better prepared as an individual than you are right now.

 

First of all - discrimination. Allow me to draw on my legal background and provide a definition better than what was found on dictionary.com (this is a wiki site folks and you should never quote it in any official manner, seeing how I could post on dictionary.com that discrimination is a form of mating dance performed by elephants). The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which I quote with the caveat that it does NOT apply to the actions of NOMS, which is a legal argument, but we can still follow the values enunciated in the document) addresses matters of equality in s. 15:

 

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

 

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

 

The means of applying this section was explained by the Supreme Court in the case of Law v. Canada:

 

1. Did the law, program, or activity impose differential treatment between the claimant and a comparator group? That is, was a distinction created between the groups in purpose or effect?

2. If so, was the differential treatment based on enumerated or analogous grounds?

3. If so, did the law in question have a purpose or effect that is discriminatory within the meaning of the equality guarantee?

 

 

We could probably get past the first part of the rest given that there is differential treatment between the comparator group (residents of NO) and the rest of the population. The second part of the the test looks to see if this is a legitimate grounds to find differentiation. For simplicity, and since we are debating policy and not the letter of the law, let's say the ground is legit. The third part of the test looks at the second part of s. 15. From the perspective of the disadvantaged group (in this case non-NO med applicants), Law v. Canada suggests we look at the following factors and analyze based on a contextual approach (meaning we consider the matter holistically based on the facts of the case):

 

1. pre-existing disadvantage

2. correlation between the grounds of the claim and the actual needs, capacities, and circumstances

3. ameliorative purpose or effect of the law on more disadvantaged groups

4. nature and scope of interest

 

I think #3 is the big one here. Weigh the fact that NO residents are underserved and this policy seeks to solve the problem against the debatedly-disrciminatory practice of not admitting a few kids with a higher GPA to med school. As a Canadian citizen, I am willing to make this trade.

 

See next post for other considerations.

 

 

written communication skills, what do I have improper grammar, maybe it's my spelling I fail to see what is wrong with my "written communication skills" I have two hands, I can spell, and I can type I'm pretty sure I've got my written communication skills set. Second asking me not to respond, then don't be troll if someone addresses me I'm going to answer them back obviously you posted this to get a reaction out of me, if you have a problem with me and my maturity level than don't bring it up on here because we're talking about something else, don't get too emotional and drag people's maturity into this just because you don't agree with something doesn't say anything about my character nor my maturity. Third, my attitudes are not elitist as you call them my arguement is plain and simple don't over complicate them nor get them twisted. NOSM is being discriminatory, please do not tell me otherwise. And yes there is DIFFERENTIAL TREATMENT between NO and non NO students, when the website clearly states that they have a preference for NO applicants that's differential treatment. THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT FROM THE BEGINNING, why do you people not understand this! I don't need to go beyond that I just want people to realize that there is a differential treatment between the two groups. And from my perspective just like YOUR perspective, emphasis on YOUR, I don't find there is legit grounds for what NOSM is doing. People keep bringing up the fact that rural residents are more likely to stay in rural communities when they've graduate med school. Well only time will tell, but I highly doubt they'll be a difference.

And your attempt to come off as highly educated on this issue by brining up the charter of rights is excess seeing that is the law, just because it is the law it doesnt mean that it's fair or right.

 

 

btw, maybe you should stick to law school, you've completely twisted the debate by using useless law jargon, but hey I can't blame you I guess there's nothing better or useful to do with your law degree, the rate at which law schools are splurging out grads in vast numbers, it's hard to find a decent job in your field. Maybe I should feel bad for you instead of arguing with you. Most law students come off as arrogant and you're no exception and therefore I couldn't resist the opportunity of putting you in your place.

[Islet]

written communication skills, what do I have improper grammar, maybe it's my spelling I fail to see what is wrong with my "written communication skills" I have two hands, I can spell, and I can type I'm pretty sure I've got my written communication skills set. Second asking me not to respond, then don't be troll if someone addresses me I'm going to answer them back obviously you posted this to get a reaction out of me, if you have a problem with me and my maturity level than don't bring it up on here because we're talking about something else, don't get too emotional and drag people's maturity into this just because you don't agree with something doesn't say anything about my character nor my maturity. Third, my attitudes are not elitist as you call them my arguement is plain and simple don't over complicate them nor get them twisted. NOSM is being discriminatory, please do not tell me otherwise. And yes there is DIFFERENTIAL TREATMENT between NO and non NO students, when the website clearly states that they have a preference for NO applicants that's differential treatment. THAT WAS MY ARGUMENT FROM THE BEGINNING, why do you people not understand this! I don't need to go beyond that I just want people to realize that there is a differential treatment between the two groups. And from my perspective just like YOUR perspective, emphasis on YOUR, I don't find there is legit grounds for what NOSM is doing. People keep bringing up the fact that rural residents are more likely to stay in rural communities when they've graduate med school. Well only time will tell, but I highly doubt they'll be a difference.

And your attempt to come off as highly educated on this issue by brining up the charter of rights is excess seeing that is the law, just because it is the law it doesnt mean that it's fair or right.

 

 

btw, maybe you should stick to law school, you've completely twisted the debate by using useless law jargon, but hey I can't blame you I guess there's nothing better or useful to do with your law degree, the rate at which law schools are splurging out grads in vast numbers, it's hard to find a decent job in your field. Maybe I should feel bad for you instead of arguing with you. Most law students come off as arrogant and you're no exception and therefore I couldn't resist the opportunity of putting you in your place.

 

wow. Why do you even WANT to go to NOSM? it doesn't seem like you'd fit in very well walking in already with a huge chip on your shoulder and already bashing people who could be your future colleagues and classmates for the next 4 years at least! give US a break!

[paulos]

I'd bet that if you could have a heart-to-heart with the bigwigs of NOSM, they'd admit that inviting so many candidates for interviews is simply their way of meeting externally-imposed criteria for approval of their facility... my only hope is that I can write the trip off on my taxes as business:D

[aclementine]

how exactly do you start a medical school? how did NOSM get developed?

[unknown user 7]

I think NOSM was urged by Mcguinty or something. Pretty much the main reason NOSM is here is because we need more doctors in Northern Ontario. Is a really big doc shortage up there and so NOSM is supposed to try and facilitate this, which is why I believe those from NO or having interests in practicing in NO are "prefered." I think I heard of someone that got into NOSM last year from TO or Ottawa. I dunno for sure. Everything in this post is hearsay or what I heard, so please no one please hold me what I am saying here.

[estrella]

NOSM ROCKS!!

 

*slinks back into shadows*

[DrJaneDoe]

wow. Why do you even WANT to go to NOSM? it doesn't seem like you'd fit in very well walking in already with a huge chip on your shoulder and already bashing people who could be your future colleagues and classmates for the next 4 years at least! give US a break!

 

 

if someone has something to say to me, I'm going to respond, and that's exactly what I did

I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted to get in so bad

don't assume

[Albt]

hey drjanedoe!

 

i thik that many of them think this is the only place we interviewed...lol

[HandSolo]

This discussion is somewhat ridiculous. If someone from an urban centre wants to practice in rural northern ontario so badly, why don't they just go to one of the other fine canadian medschools and practice in rural areas?

Selection is a form of discrimination. Plus i didn't hear people complaining BEFORE NOSM opened.

 

NOSM opened with a specific mandate....there is no way to FORCE their applicants to practice in rural areas, so the only logical way is to train applicants that seem most likely to practice in rural areas. I think it's also an admission that many medschool hopefuls would happily lie about their intentions to get an MD.

 

Are we gonna complain about ladies rooms discriminating against men...who could easily use the toilets? I had a far better bathroom analogy in my head, but i really have to pee and can't fully concentrate.

 

Anyway....if you're from Toronto, and you're really committed to practicing rural medicine...then instead of spending your summers doing research assistantships or whatever med hopefuls like to do, get a contract to work in the northwest territories or something. The wages are ridiculously high for many different jobs, and you get a taste for rural life. Hell, you could even volunteer at the clinic while you're down there.

[paulos]

Handsolo said, "If someone from an urban centre wants to practice in rural northern ontario so badly, why don't they just go to one of the other fine canadian medschools and practice in rural areas?"

 

That seems to cap it for me, your logic is impeccable.

[unknown user 7]

This discussion is somewhat ridiculous. If someone from an urban centre wants to practice in rural northern ontario so badly, why don't they just go to one of the other fine canadian medschools and practice in rural areas?

Selection is a form of discrimination. Plus i didn't hear people complaining BEFORE NOSM opened.

 

NOSM opened with a specific mandate....there is no way to FORCE their applicants to practice in rural areas, so the only logical way is to train applicants that seem most likely to practice in rural areas. I think it's also an admission that many medschool hopefuls would happily lie about their intentions to get an MD.

 

Are we gonna complain about ladies rooms discriminating against men...who could easily use the toilets? I had a far better bathroom analogy in my head, but i really have to pee and can't fully concentrate.

 

Anyway....if you're from Toronto, and you're really committed to practicing rural medicine...then instead of spending your summers doing research assistantships or whatever med hopefuls like to do, get a contract to work in the northwest territories or something. The wages are ridiculously high for many different jobs, and you get a taste for rural life. Hell, you could even volunteer at the clinic while you're down there.

 

I am sorry for asking this, but I like your name. Lol. Is it what I think it means. PM me.

[LawDude]

Written communication skills involve more than just an ability to spell and type. The fact that you don't realize that only reinforces my point.

 

Obviously the explanation I provided for my legal arguments went well over your head. I surely hope the same doesn't happen for anatomy.

 

One more thing. Notice that you have zero support in here. Not one person has stood behind your asinine points, even though I am sure many may agree with some of the things you have to say.

 

Grow up.

[LawDude]

I think chichi hit the nail on the head of this one.

 

Discrimination is really just a label. For whatever reason it has received a negative connotation when, in some areas, it can be a very good thing. As a society, we need to root out the bad discrimination and look to equalize the good discrimination. For example, how would you feel if the government sponsored breakfast programs at inner-city schools, many of which serve working-class immigrant populations, where kids do not get a good morning meal at home? This obviously discriminates against the upper class, but is it that bad a thing?

 

The fact is that NOSM has a mandate to bring more doctors to an underserviced area. Statistics prove that NO residents are the ones most likely to stay and service this area.

 

Is this a form of discrimination? Yes it is. Deal with it.

[KMG007]

Very true that it makes total sense to discriminate in this circumstance...however it is to bad there is no way of proving one's true want to practice in the North when you are not from the North. I have grown up in a community about an hour east of Toronto with a population just under 100,000 people. Therefore I am very much not from the North. Yet, my partner is a Northerner and we plan on living and practicing in the Soo when we complete school. I will be applying for medical school for entry in August 2008 while he will be starting his residency in Sault Ste Marie (with his center being in Sudbury) in July 2008. I would love to go to Sudbury, but I know my chances are slim to none. I wish there was a way of proving my true desire to be there. Granted I will mention this arrangement, but I imagine people lie all the time. I can not blame them for not believing me.

[Julie]

KMG007, I don't really know much, but I wouldn't be so sure they won't believe you. There'll be places to speak of that on your application.

 

This said, I wanted to agree with LawDude & others, &, although my arguments probably have all been said before, I just want to show my support for NOMS's policy and it's students. It's true you can try & recruit doctors with $, work conditions, etc., but I think NO is already doing as much as they can in that area and they need to try other things, because it's just not enough.

 

I actually did apply to NOMS and didn't get an interview. I was very dissapointed and I'm sure my lack of experience with NO and rural settings in general played alot in my not getting invited. However, they were probably right. Although I would have tried to stay in NO, as I think I would have owed it to them, I'm not sure I would have fitted in or actually stayed for my whole career.

 

I understand how frustrating it must be to work so hard and not get in, while people with lower GPAs and MCAT scores do. Carreer is just so important, and for those of us who happen to really, really want to be a doctor, the whole process can be frustrating and seem soooo unfair. The fact is, there's just not enough spots in med school for everyone who would be a great doctor, and that's what's really unfair.

 

However, discrimination is everywhere, and NOMS's discrimination is a very small part of the big picture. Some said you couldn't choose where you grew up, but you also can't chose whom you grew up with, what kind of environment you were brought up in, what physical handicap you may have been born with... all those things and sooo many other, uncontrollable ones have a huge impact on odds to get in med school. Life's not fair. At the risk of sounding corny, I think it's time to start counting our blessings The students of NOMS worked really hard to get there and they will be great doctors. Let's not bust their bubble And keep in mind : if your stats are so much better than theirs, keep trying and you'll get in somewhere!

 

We'll always be able to find people who seem to have it easier than us, but let's not forget about the other end of the bell curve

 

 

ps. Wow, when I read my post, it seems so heavy and serious! Can anyone please post a joke to lighten things up?

[DrJaneDoe]

Written communication skills involve more than just an ability to spell and type. The fact that you don't realize that only reinforces my point.

 

Obviously the explanation I provided for my legal arguments went well over your head. I surely hope the same doesn't happen for anatomy.

 

One more thing. Notice that you have zero support in here. Not one person has stood behind your asinine points, even though I am sure many may agree with some of the things you have to say.

 

Grow up.

 

What about the whole "I'm not going to engage in tit-for-tat discussion" with me...

 

and don't you worry I pulled off a A+ in anatomy, and no your discussion about law didn't go way over my head, it was off topic, maybe you should actually read what I said, maybe you should work on your reading skills

 

have you noticed your only supporters are NOSM students?

I'm not here to gain support, whether or not people agree with me or not doesn't change my opinion or how I feel

Unfortunately for you, it does, this forum isn't suppose to be about a popularity contest...maybe you should do a little growing up

[Opiedog]

This thread has become unproductive, and is now locked.