Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

FP Salaries...


Recommended Posts

In addition to more proceedures for rural doctors, there are also alternative payment plans for rural doctors which can guarantee their income often higher than what can be earned in the urban area. Rural doctors also take advantage of the higher income potential working in the ER.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

I thought I would throw some of my experience into the mix.

 

I worked with a Family Health Group (FHG), and the breakdown was basically as follows:

 

Each doc had approximately 2000 patients on the roster. With the FHG, you get paid per patient per year (as opposed to fee for service), which works out to be about an average of $115 - $140 per patient/yr (depending on the patient population). So that works out to approximately $230,000 - $280,000 per year less 35% expenses (this was standard for each doc). That leaves a salary of $150,000 - $180,000 before taxes.

 

BUT (and this is the huge advantage of FHG, FHT, FHN) bonuses are also available. For instance, there is a bonus each month (~$10 per patient) if none of your patients use a walk in clinic that month (you get deducted ~ $100 per walk in visit). There are also bonuses for diabetes follow ups, Screening, giving the flu shot, etc. So this can also be a significant source of income (one doc had about $30,000 in bonuses last year).

 

Another note: The docs I worked with were all at the tail end of their careers, and were trimming their rosters. There is definitely an opportunity to add more patients. As well on average each doc took about 8 or 9 weeks holiday a year, and worked in clinic about 4.5 days per week (4 full days plus one night).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ofie,

 

Thanks for the information you provided. I took a look at the medvisit site and was surprised to see that this type of service existed for people of all ages.

 

I have also heard some of the doctors that I have worked with talking about travelling north to work for a few weeks, would you mind sharing where I would be able to get more information about these endeavours? I wonder whether this opportunity exists for specialists as well.

 

 

 

 

Just to add my 2 cents. Not a physician but married to a GP and have been doing the finances and research on these topics.

 

With incorporation, the advantage is that you can withdraw some of the money as dividends at the end of the year. The laws also allows other shareholders to be paid dividends. Shareholders will be mainly your spouse children 18 years and older. Dividends are taxed at a lower rate and all pulled together provides significant tax savings. Some GP's also employ their spouses and in such situations all payments to the spouse come back to the household and taxes on the spouses income are lower.

 

For the taxes in Ontario in 2006, $100,000 income will provide $70,626 takehome. $150,000 will provide $97,970 takehome. You can work out other numbers and look at other provinces here http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-_Calculators_-_2006_Personal_Tax

 

For family physicians, the best is not to concentrate solely on office family practice. My spouse does a variety, office, ER shifts in various small community hosiptals (usually about an hour from the big city where we live), some obstetrics, now thinking of joining for surgical assist in big city hospitals, about 3 home visits a month with an agency (usually in the evenings for about 4-hours - looks at about 6-7 patients per evening and pulls in over $2000). Once a while travels to northern ontario for about 3-4 weeks a year and pulls in over $30,000 each trip. Sometimes does walk-ins at various places. On the gross side, yearly income is pretty good over the incomes suggested and grows very year. Pretty much balanced lifestyle in addition as there is control over work hours.

 

We have realised that doing office work alone is highly unlikely to provide much income. For office work, pay overhead of 30% and happy with it that way instead of having to run the business ourself.

 

Satisfied with work variety and income as it stands now. You have to be smart business wise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
I thought I would throw some of my experience into the mix.

 

I worked with a Family Health Group (FHG), and the breakdown was basically as follows:

 

Each doc had approximately 2000 patients on the roster. With the FHG, you get paid per patient per year (as opposed to fee for service), which works out to be about an average of $115 - $140 per patient/yr (depending on the patient population). So that works out to approximately $230,000 - $280,000 per year less 35% expenses (this was standard for each doc). That leaves a salary of $150,000 - $180,000 before taxes.

 

BUT (and this is the huge advantage of FHG, FHT, FHN) bonuses are also available. For instance, there is a bonus each month (~$10 per patient) if none of your patients use a walk in clinic that month (you get deducted ~ $100 per walk in visit). There are also bonuses for diabetes follow ups, Screening, giving the flu shot, etc. So this can also be a significant source of income (one doc had about $30,000 in bonuses last year).

 

Another note: The docs I worked with were all at the tail end of their careers, and were trimming their rosters. There is definitely an opportunity to add more patients. As well on average each doc took about 8 or 9 weeks holiday a year, and worked in clinic about 4.5 days per week (4 full days plus one night).

 

does anyone know what the situation is with alberta primary care networks, is it simlar to this ontario concept? I am specifically interested in edmonton primary care networks.

 

looking at the numbers, i think its still more lucrative to have an urban office based practice outside this FHG ...am i right?

 

also whats the deal with these ridiculous 30-40% overhead costs people charge to join their practice or do locums with them.....they are def skimming some money off you..i'm sure if u started a solo practice and ran a tight ship you could get away with an overhead cost between 15-25%..any thoughts?

 

thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

also whats the deal with these ridiculous 30-40% overhead costs people charge to join their practice or do locums with them.....they are def skimming some money off you..i'm sure if u started a solo practice and ran a tight ship you could get away with an overhead cost between 15-25%..any thoughts?

 

thanks!

 

 

Sure, but how much are you factoring in paying your staff? Having worked as a medical peon, I know that in order to maintain, and keep, good staff (especially if you're interested in Edmonton right NOW) you'd have to pay them well.

Think about it from a dentistry POV, the hygenists I know (ok, only two) pay a fee to the dentist just for 'using' their patients. You are basically getting business from THEM, so why shouldn't you kick back a bit to them?

I don't know much about how much they should be charging based on what they get, but I do know that the overhead in any business racks up quicker than you could imagine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ask yourself this question: do you like having your dictations transcribed in a timely manner?

Well...I understand your point and do agree that many costly overhead expenses are often necessary.

 

...but I can't help but think that family docs don't really do dictations in my experience. I've worked with about 10 different family docs and only have seen one dictate. In that case it was a guy who couldn't type more than about 20 wpm and who would dictate maybe 3 or 4 complicated consultation requests each week for his wife to type up at home.

 

Have you seen other family docs using dictation more often? I'd be interested to know if some docs use it for all consult requests (or other things?)...I can definitely see the advantage - quick way to get across more info in a easy-to-read format. But at the same time, writing or typing it out quickly yourself is what most seem to do and it works just fine without the added expense. Anyway...as a (hopefully) soon-to-be family med resident, I'm definitely interested in hearing about how different practices are set-up. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The family doctor I'm currently with on my rotation uses dictation for all his consults. They're nowhere near the huge notes I've seen done in medicine clinics, but I'd say he does 6-7 a week. They're not always for complicated issues either. He gets his secretary to type them up, maybe because he's on the slower side when it comes to typing. I think the secretary also has a way of automatically incorporating information from the EMR, like medications and some past medical history, which cuts down on the amount that needs to be typed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well...I understand your point and do agree that many costly overhead expenses are often necessary.

 

...but I can't help but think that family docs don't really do dictations in my experience. I've worked with about 10 different family docs and only have seen one dictate. In that case it was a guy who couldn't type more than about 20 wpm and who would dictate maybe 3 or 4 complicated consultation requests each week for his wife to type up at home.

 

Have you seen other family docs using dictation more often? I'd be interested to know if some docs use it for all consult requests (or other things?)...I can definitely see the advantage - quick way to get across more info in a easy-to-read format. But at the same time, writing or typing it out quickly yourself is what most seem to do and it works just fine without the added expense. Anyway...as a (hopefully) soon-to-be family med resident, I'm definitely interested in hearing about how different practices are set-up. :)

 

 

True, family docs don't dictate as much as some other specialties. My off-the-cuff comment probably sprang from having just spent three weeks with a psyche who dictates on every patient. By the point remains...docs rely on their admin staff for a lot of stuff and because of that you need to keep the admin happy by paying them a decent salary, among other things.

 

Maybe it's just transference (ooohh, more psi-babble) on my part, but whenever people start talking about running "tight ships" and pinching pennies until they scream I get scared. I've seen enough instances of people focusing on the short-term bottom line to the detriment of the long term that comments like the OP's scare me You might be able to run a practice on 10-15% overhead, but when your secretaries constantly screw up your bookings, when bloodwork gets misfiled and when you can cut the atmosphere in the waiting room with a knife you might want to reconsider your approach (sorry OP, if that was not the intent of your comment).

 

Docs have a reputation for being crappy money managers, but they're not all horrible at it and I keep hearing the 30% figure often enough to assume that it's a realistic amount for overhead.

 

pb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i'm not talking about pinching pennies excessively

i'm saying..hey when your out in real practice and you join a group practice or do loucums and they want to take 30-40% of your billing as overhead...i guess its easy to say oh yeah they are probably runing a practice that has 30-40% overhead or are they???..even if they are taking 5-10% profit off you i think that is too much....how about runing your own practice see where the money really is going instead of working for a group which is basically taking a profit off you

 

that was my point..there is no doubt that having a good a secretary is key to an efficient practice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

riamo, it is obvious you have never ran a business or know what it takes. 30-40% is not out of line. Have you thought about what it really costs to run an office?

15-20%! Maybe if you lived in town that leases office space for 5 dollars a square foot, you couldn't have any office staff let alone a nurse, you could only work during day light as you couldn't afford electricity, the average phone bill for an office is over 400.00 a month, computers plus tech support, office supplies plus incidentals. I suggest you ask a family doc what they spend on overhead a month, I also suggest you bring a vomit bag because it will make you sick.

 

I am sorry if the tone is a little harsh.

 

shaka

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ofie,

 

Thanks for the information you provided. I took a look at the medvisit site and was surprised to see that this type of service existed for people of all ages.

 

I have also heard some of the doctors that I have worked with talking about travelling north to work for a few weeks, would you mind sharing where I would be able to get more information about these endeavours? I wonder whether this opportunity exists for specialists as well.

The rural locum program formally used to be managed by the OMA but now with other orgainizations. Check here for links http://www.oma.org/jobsearch/central.htmle

Also get infor and contacts from other physicians who already go to the rural areas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...