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Any university students turned off McGill due to Med-P?

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They have to do cegep, which has an extra year in it, and 1st year university level courses in the final year, so they are equivalent in age and education to any student in ontario who enters Queens, UofT, or McMaster after completing third year.

 

With regards to their english, there is no reason why it would be any different from the 80 IP students who get in every year.

 

Before condescending, you really should do your research.

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Is anyone turned off from applying due to Med-P? I mean these "kids" get to go into medicine with the equivalent of 2 year of university while we need 4 years of undergrad. They won't even take 3 years like UofT, Queen's... Also, how good is the English of Med-P students?

 

Oui ça sent la rancune conte la vie d'une personne qui se fait refuser à McGill en pensant qu'il serait les premiers acceptés.

 

Hey MON ONCLE MCGILL EST OBLIGÉE D'ACCEPTER DES CEGEPIENS,[ON EST AU QUEBEC!!! tout comme les autres universités franco de la province, elle a cependant le choix du nombre.

 

ça vaut la peine de répondre en francais pour voir tes aptitudes en francais...

 

D'abord, quelle arogance... These Kids ennnnhhh...tu répeteras ça à Drolet. these kids seront medecins vers 25 ans. J'imagine que tu as présentement autour de 25 ans! comment tu te sens, trouves-tu que tu es un kid???

 

J'ai pas hate de te voir devant un patient qui ne comprend pas pourquoi il est malade, tu vas surement lui dire what an ignorant. Anyway si tu es pas du quebec ben t as juste à aller dans ta province.

 

Have a nice day.

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Hey cool..I actually understood some of that! After like...6 years since I took French! Maybe because it was in Frenglish.

 

Sorry for interrupting....you guys can go back to arguring....in French/English....

 

lol you're the best!!!!

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I believe (but am not sure) that the Quebec gov tells all the med schools that they have to take a min. number of med-Ps every year. McGill sticks to that minimum unlike the 3 other schools. I also think that med schools are rewarded with more gov money for a med-P than other candidates. McGill does their best with what they are given.

 

As for the gov. stance on med-P it makes sense financially. They are the biggest bang for your buck b/c post-sec education is so heavily funded. It costs less to pay for 2+1+4 years of cegep/uni than 2+3+4 years. Just a thought.

 

As for the med-Ps in 2011, they all speak english fine. No worries.

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Oui ça sent la rancune conte la vie d'une personne qui se fait refuser à McGill en pensant qu'il serait les premiers acceptés.

 

Hey MON ONCLE MCGILL EST OBLIGÉE D'ACCEPTER DES CEGEPIENS,[ON EST AU QUEBEC!!! tout comme les autres universités franco de la province, elle a cependant le choix du nombre.

 

ça vaut la peine de répondre en francais pour voir tes aptitudes en francais...

 

D'abord, quelle arogance... These Kids ennnnhhh...tu répeteras ça à Drolet. these kids seront medecins vers 25 ans. J'imagine que tu as présentement autour de 25 ans! comment tu te sens, trouves-tu que tu es un kid???

 

J'ai pas hate de te voir devant un patient qui ne comprend pas pourquoi il est malade, tu vas surement lui dire what an ignorant. Anyway si tu es pas du quebec ben t as juste à aller dans ta province.

 

Have a nice day.

 

nicely said...

if i can add... we shouldnt feed the troll.

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Before I started med school, I thought that being in a class where 1/2 my classmates were younger and hadn't done at least an undergrad would be a bad idea and somewhat annoying. But, after spending almost two years with my classmates, I can tell you that for most of the med-p class, they are motivated, mature and dedicated to becoming physicians. Sure I think that maybe some of them would benefit from a few extra years of undergrad to learn "life lessons" and gain extra life experience, but when it comes down to patient care, I don't think there is any difference between the med-p's and those with an undergrad/masters/PhD. There are a handful of med-p's who many of my classmates think really are a bit immature and maybe not ready for med school but this is the exception rather than the rule. I would say that when we started in med-1, there was more of a difference between us and the med-p's but we both have a lot to learn from eachother and everything balances out in the end.

Many of my tutors often express their dislike of the med-p system but I see the Quebec government's logic in having to fund less years of post secondary education. and like i mentioned, at graduation, everything balances out. sure, the guy with the PhD may have a bigger knowledge base to draw from but I find that med-p's are more motivated to pick up a book and do the extra reading and studying to catch up.

I have noticed a different though between students at the french universities and mcgill. the french universities have a larger % of pre-meds/med-ps and from what I've observed, tend to have less maturity (gross generalization). At 2 of the french schools, students start med school directly after cegep (so at around 18-19 years old). I think that this is WAY too early to begin med school and that you need at least 1 year in university to broaden your knowledge base, mature and decide if med school really is for you.

just my 2 cents...

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The biggest issue that bothers me is that there are a bunch of OOP applicants to McGill who are rejected/permanently waitlisted because there are only 7 or so spots. Ridiculous.

 

The competition for IP MDCM/Med-P isn't even close to comparable. I'm not saying Med-P/IP MDCM applicants are are poor, but McGill is shooting itself in the foot by not offering more OOP spots and making the application fairer and more competitive for everyone.

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... McGill is shooting itself in the foot by not offering more OOP spots and making the application fairer and more competitive for everyone.

 

I've been told that the number of seats is regulated provincially, so McGill (or any other QC med school) don't have much choice in that.

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The biggest issue that bothers me is that there are a bunch of OOP applicants to McGill who are rejected/permanently waitlisted because there are only 7 or so spots. Ridiculous.

 

The competition for IP MDCM/Med-P isn't even close to comparable. I'm not saying Med-P/IP MDCM applicants are are poor, but McGill is shooting itself in the foot by not offering more OOP spots and making the application fairer and more competitive for everyone.

 

You could say the same about any school (although i do agree that McGill is particularly selective).

 

But at least in Ontario you have 6 schools to choose from (most of which select for IP) and most of which have more seats that McGill. If you're from Quebec, you only have 1 IP school that is english

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Regarding the OOP selection process, I'll add the BC, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland all heavily favour their own applicants. So the issue of the OOP waiting list is mute, as provinces simply want a good return on investment.

 

In terms of the Quebec premed situation, it is definitely unique, and yes, it all has to do with the government. My hope for McGill would be to try, within these regulations, to strike a balance between pre-meds, bachelor's, master's/PhDs applicants. In med school, you learn from each other, and diversity of experience is important.

 

I will say, in general, that premeds lack some life experience initially but are, in turn, a very hard-working bunch. They know they have to be, in order to do well. This, in turn, pushes the class to be better.

 

The truth is that pre-meds make fine physicians (I am not a premed). Furthermore, I challenge anyone to see if they can predict, from a bunch of R1s, who was pre-med. For the majority, it will be impossible.

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McGill and the Med-P program are not the sources of the problem. Like someone else said, it has to take a certain number of Med-Ps - no choice. But the incompetence of the provincial government is just unbelievable. Instead of raising physician salaries at par with the rest of the country's average, they stipulate the conditions and locations that prospective physicians are allowed to work. How many people would be willing to work in Rimouski when the pay is subpar?

 

As for the Med-Ps, they have a lot more drive and they take work a lot more seriously than us graduate students. You'll soon have respect for them when you come here and get your a$$ kicked by a 20-yr old regardless of how many degress you have had. The only deficits are that they don't seem to question authority as much and they are more shy and reserved at communicating with patients but these will change with time as they get older.

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Regarding the OOP selection process, I'll add the BC, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland all heavily favour their own applicants. So the issue of the OOP waiting list is mute, as provinces simply want a good return on investment.

 

Yes of course. That is a given. But it is particularly dire for OOPs applying to McGill compared to say, an OOP applicant to UofM, UofA, UofC etc (UofA alone provides 15-20 OOP seats).

 

Quebec has serious retention issues for graduated doctors, since they offer one of the lowest remuneration levels in all of canada.

 

limiting the number of OOP seats only makes sense (in terms of the government doing it), because you don't want to spend a whole bunch of government money training doctors who are going to leave your province the moment they are done and practice in Ontario or BC, for example.

 

Anyway, McMaster does it too (only taking 1/8 OOP for interviews), as well as Western (favoring SWOMEN), and Ottawa.

 

Unfortunately, it's an awful band-aid solution to the problem. Don't you think Quebec would be better off training the best medical doctors and then finding an incentive for them to stay? Instead of artificially keeping in-province competition down and hoping these grads will stick around because they're from Quebec?

 

You could say the same about any school (although i do agree that McGill is particularly selective).

 

But at least in Ontario you have 6 schools to choose from (most of which select for IP) and most of which have more seats that McGill. If you're from Quebec, you only have 1 IP school that is english

 

Thanks for recognizing McGill is particularly selective! I agree, Ontario has the most medical schools, but keep in mind two of these schools do not require the MCAT, Queen's/UofT have absolutely no in province preference, and UWO's SWOMEN policy hardly compares to McGill's restrictive 7-8 OOP spots out of a class of ~150.

 

If Ontario were to operate like Quebec, then 5 of the 6 schools would be completely closed off to the rest of Canada, with UofT providing 10 OOP spots to the rest of Canada. I wonder how people would find that?

 

I would like to see Ontario introduce some restrictions to make it a bit fairer for those who live in the province

 

Ditto.

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Having done a BSc I gotta admit those 4 years were a complete waste of time. If you know you wanna be a doctor, you should try and get straight into medicine, because you learn absolutely nothing useful in undergrad due to the incredible diversity, irrelevance and unpracticality of the courses offered (unless you're in a professional program like physical therapy).

 

Two things that should be noted, though, are:

1. Some Med-P's do tend to be somewhat immature, but remember medical school is a great place to see different things and mature up (at your own expense, that is)

2. Some of them are challenged by English, but this is a French-speaking community for the most part and as long as you can understand what's being taught in English, you'll be fine.

 

Another issue here is the fact that people from university have to show competence in English through their MCAT scores, and Med-P's don't. That IS unfair, but so is pretty much everything else in the world! What can you do?....

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Premeds are great, and i am envious of how smart thet are. You pretty much need a 34 CRC score to be considered, and that is no easy task. I worked my butt of in cegep to end with a 33... Then, I busted my butt in undergrad,,and yet the premeds are just so naturally smart. Not to mention they are simply more motivated cause they are younger.

 

I do admit, that on the wards you do see a bit of lack of ppl skills in SOME, but certainly not all. And this of course applies to just about anyone other student (IP, OOP, PhD, etc....)

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I second Bunny. McGill takes CEGEP students because they have to, not because they want to. I personally know people who teach at McGill and they have told me that Pre-meds are the ones who inevitably don't do as well. Not all of them, but most of the people on the brink of failing were pre-meds. And that is understandable: how are you suppose to keep up with only basic bio courses, while more than half of the class have upper level courses and some even have masters and phds?

I totally uderstand that its really frustrating to do a bachelor when you know that you want to get into med anyways, but I find that I have learned so much and that I will be way better prepared this way. Plus I am a lot more mature and I know myself a lot better. I think its unfait to take both cegep and university students in the same class: do either one so that you can tailor your program to your students' stengths.

Et le cegepien, calme toi.

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Hey everyone,

 

So I will try to give the perspective of a Med-P from the Class of 2010 (I'm currently in Med2). I think that this debate is really interesting, in a lot of ways! It's funny because at the beginning of Med1, you can see the division between the MedPs and people who did an undergrad prior to admission. However, I have to admit that throughout Med 1 and once arrived in Med2, everyone is really working together and learning from each other, and this division does not really exist anymore (which I think is creating an amazing group dynamic). Some of my best friends in Med are PhDs, I went in Benin (Africa) with a teacher/undergrad, I work everyday with master students and in general, I must say that I really enjoy working with them, they are amazing friends!

 

I'm francophone and did all my education in French. I hesitated a lot between UdeM and McGill before my admission and I never regretted coming to McGill. My english is not perfect but I think I made a lot of improvement since my admission. In the hospitals, there is a great dynamic because people who speaks french (Premeds and Undergrad) help people who do not speak french (also Premeds and Undergrad) because a majority of premeds are from english cegeps (Marianopolis, John Abbott, Vanier, Dawson and Champlain College)... and in the hospitals, about 50-60% of the population is primarily francophone.

 

I think that the level of academic success is about the same amongst MedPs and Undergrads. However, I must admit that the only people I know are in the top 10% of class are premeds... but then again, I do not believe that this is an index of academic success. However, to answer the "question" of Mikkey, I have to admit that generally speaking, in terms of marks on exams, premeds are the one to be in the upper portion of the range. I think that it's the "keener" factor and the fact that a lot of undergrad a more laid back (because they are sick of school in a sense... lol). I don't think that McGill is tailoring their program for student's strength... the averages are always in the 80s, and all my premed friends are generally 85 and above. Again, I don't think that marks are an indicator, but since Mikkey seemed to talk about academic strength. In clinics, I think that everyone is about the same. In all my groups of ICM (Intro to clinical med), it was a good mix of premeds and undergrad. With all my groups, I had tons of fun and skills of both "types" of students are the same :). From what I could see... And as solocup said: "You'll soon have respect for them when you come here and get your a$$ kicked by a 20-yr old regardless of how many degress you have had." LOL...

 

I agree a lot with what Miss Sunshine said: "I would say that when we started in med-1, there was more of a difference between us and the med-p's but we both have a lot to learn from eachother and everything balances out in the end." A

 

I really quickly realized that Undergraduates have more life experiences... however, I must admit that concerning maturity, as you say, there is immature people in both groups.

 

I think that MedP students are a great add-on to the class of McGill and that the proportion 50-50 btw them and the undergraduate population is a very good balance. Once in clinics, there is generally no differences and a lot of team work. Concerning the balance at McGill, I agree with MissSunshine when she said: "I have noticed a different though between students at the french universities and mcgill. the french universities have a larger % of pre-meds/med-ps and from what I've observed, tend to have less maturity (gross generalization)." I have a lot of friends at Sherbrooke, UdeM and Laval... and I have to admit that the general feeling I have is that a majority of their class lacks maturity compared to students of McGill (and this is a personal observation, and I don't want to say that in a condescending manner). I just think that at McGill, with the MedP year itself, and with being launched in a class with 50% undergraduate students, WE HAVE to get more mature faster (in a sense)... we just need to keep up with the work, we learn from the other students, we are expose to different things as a group composed of both undergrads and premeds and for multiple other reasons...

 

I might have liked to do an Undergrad prior to enter medschool, but I do not regret my path. I don't think I will be less of a good doctor because I'm going to be younger. I think hard work, team collaboration and enjoying day-by-day social activities and involvement in extra-curricular stuff (for fun and meeting new ppl) are the key to success in med school.

 

I don't know if you have specific questions, I don't think premed should defend their existence... I think that many generations of doctors from this program proved to be very competent. I met a Dr. from the Class of 1963 who told me that 7 students who entered straight from High School graduated in his promotion... so I guess it's been a long time since this kind of program exists :).

 

I'm opened to your comments and questions

 

This is my personal opinion. Maybe some people of my class would not agree with me, but I think that it reflects the general feeling...

Gab

 

PS: I don't think we are "kids", as it was mentioned before, and I understand how this expression could be interpreted in a condescending manner. I believe that it was inappropriate but I don't think you said that to offend anyone, so it's ok :).

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I might have liked to do an Undergrad prior to enter medschool

 

Quite the opposite here, I wish I hadn't wasted 3 years of my life in undergrad. I didn't go to CEGEP, but I wish I had, and gotten in straight from there. My first couple of years in med school would have been more painful, but I would have bypassed 3 fruitless and stressful years of undergrad.

 

As for your comment on academic success, I beg to differ. You don't know every single person in the top 10% of your class, the ones you know happen to be Med-P's since most of your buddies are Med-P's. I think Med-P's might do slightly better on exams, but the difference is minute.

 

Overall, as you said, this system has been in effect in Quebec for decades and it seems to work. Maybe it's time for other places to consider letting people in straight from high school or a pre-university level. Just a thought...

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Hey abcabc

 

I agree with you, I don't know everyone on the top 10...

 

However, as I said, I do not believe that this is an indicator of "success". Just the fact of knowing medps in this top10 just shows to some people that questioning their academic potential is that valid... that lot of those "kids", as we were called ;), are still able to keep up with the level they are required to cover...

 

I personally think that everyone is very strong in the med class... and a 80 vs a 85 is not that a big deal in the end... I don't think that this will change the quality of their practice... :) But again, I agree I spoke too fast on that one and thanks for correcting me ;)

 

Gab

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