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Valentine

If the gov't is so concerned about the FP shortage...

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-What exactly do you mean 'better options professionally'? How are you defining 'better professionally'?

 

I mean that students who enter any other specialty are more likely to secure academic positions. Additionally, if they are interested in research, then going into FP will be counterproductive since FP is not widely considered to be a heavily research-oriented field. All of the major research is being done by specialists or PhDs.

 

Additionally, from my experience FPs get s#it on by other doctors constantly. I can't speak for everyone, but I would have a hard time being proud of my work if I was being disrespected by specialists all of the time. Of course, what could I do about it? They'd be making far more money and have far more political and academic respect.

 

"Wide range of practice: this is only partially true and is dependent on the number of specialists in an area."

 

This is just plain false. Have you ever done a family medicine elective? [/quote=Gob;245807]

 

Yes. Both in a small rural area and in a major center. The small rural area doc basically did everything besides surgery, and referred only when he was truly stumped. The major center doc juggled medications while referring any thought-provoking problems to the specialists, and this was de-rigeur for the area...not very interesting work.

 

"This discussion is about why the FP shortage is persisting, and how little is being done to remedy it."

 

Again, not true. Talk to any GP about the new fee-schedule for billing diabetes control, the bursaries for rural practice, etc etc.

 

Talk to any student about the lack of pay a GP makes compared to basically anything else. For instance, these rural bursaries are minuscule relative to the yearly net of basically anything else AND you have to move rurally, which most students do not want to do. So why not just do opthto?

 

 

I hate it when med students(or worse yet, clueless pre-meds), laypeople, and doctors pull the argument that we shouldn't be in it for the money. Why is it ok for basically any other profession to be in it for the money except physicians? Physicians sacrifice a lot of their time, financial credit, and energy to provide a crucial service to society. When family physicians are not paid well, it is construed that those physicians are not important, only necessary.

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"I hate it when med students(or worse yet, clueless pre-meds), laypeople, and doctors pull the argument that we shouldn't be in it for the money."

 

That's great, I have no problem with you enjoying the money you earn. I just believe that if making a lot of money is a top priority for you, there are easier ways to do it than in medicine.

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I hate it when med students(or worse yet, clueless pre-meds), laypeople, and doctors pull the argument that we shouldn't be in it for the money. Why is it ok for basically any other profession to be in it for the money except physicians? Physicians sacrifice a lot of their time, financial credit, and energy to provide a crucial service to society. When family physicians are not paid well, it is construed that those physicians are not important, only necessary.

 

Physicians of all kinds are in the top 5% (if not the top 1-2%) in income, so the notion that they are not paid well is rather ridiculous - psychiatrists and public health physicians make about the same (or less, as the latter are invariably in salaried-government jobs). That's not to say that I disagree that FPs (or the aforementioned specialties) are underpaid relative to their training and experience, but then that's why the standard fee-for-service arrangements and individual practices are probably not the most efficient ways of delivering primary care in the community.

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That's great, I have no problem with you enjoying the money you earn. I just believe that if making a lot of money is a top priority for you, there are easier ways to do it than in medicine.

 

I'd like to know specifically what these are. I've found that, generally, as money increases, competitiveness for that job increases proportionally.

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If you think about it though, with a shortage of doctors, it basically means that most doctors are doing the job of two rather than just one. I completely agree that money should be the most important factor (or only) but if it is a priority for you, then I would not be worried that you are going to be booed by society, you deserve the money you earn.

 

Frankly Looking at all other top paying jobs as well, I would like someone to point one out that would be more enjoyable than being a doctor.

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..what about dentistry ? only 7 or 8 years total university study, you basically set your own fees and your own hours. You can practise the type of dentistry you want with no government intervention. 200 k ++ /yr working 35 hrs. pretty shveet if you ask me!

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I also want to hear more about the ''easier money'' jobs. I doubt the average dentist makes more than the average doctor, and as far as I know, CEOs/top-firm lawyers/investment bankers don't get their jobs strictly out of good grades/skills...

 

I think people often underestimate how much of a great equalizer medicine really is.

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..what about dentistry ? only 7 or 8 years total university study, you basically set your own fees and your own hours. You can practise the type of dentistry you want with no government intervention. 200 k ++ /yr working 35 hrs. pretty shveet if you ask me!

 

My buddy is doing dentristy, and I swear they go full gladiator in terms of competitiveness the way he talks. I must admit though that I would rather stick my fingers in your body then your open mouth where you could bite them off, lol.

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We had a FP come present his specialty at our school a while back and he gave the impression that family practice is what you make of it. It's very open because you can do fellowships and training to expand the kinds of things you wish to do. On top of a FP residency, options such as doing a 3rd year for emerg or anesthesiology, adding surgical or rheum fellowships on top and etc are all possible. The presenter actually built his own surgical suite at his clinic and operated a couple of days a week. He mentioned that he was billing over 400k gross a year while the top billing FP in Calgary was raking in 1.2 million gross a year so it's definitely not impossible to earn a VERY good living if you have the business acumen.

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You can make a very good wage at anything - provided you're good enough at it. Look at musicians, artists, authors... You can make a killing recycling scrap metal, for Pete's sakes... it depends how lucky you are, too. Business sense helps out tons.

 

More 'traditional' pursuits such as law, engineering, and business can make tons more money than a physician (if of course, you do it right).

 

Very few musicians, artists, and authors make a lot.

Physician incomes are more or less guaranteed to be relatively high, whereas those other jobs have varied income levels and lower job security.

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True, but in response to your original post, these are specific occupations that will make more than a physician if done properly.

 

Understandable, but the high salaries in those fields cannot be achieved consistently across all candidates... so in that sense those jobs are not "easier" ways to make more money

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We had a FP come present his specialty at our school a while back and he gave the impression that family practice is what you make of it. It's very open because you can do fellowships and training to expand the kinds of things you wish to do. On top of a FP residency, options such as doing a 3rd year for emerg or anesthesiology, adding surgical or rheum fellowships on top and etc are all possible. The presenter actually built his own surgical suite at his clinic and operated a couple of days a week. He mentioned that he was billing over 400k gross a year while the top billing FP in Calgary was raking in 1.2 million gross a year so it's definitely not impossible to earn a VERY good living if you have the business acumen.

 

You make a good point here. Those who have an aptitude for business would thrive in an FP setting.

 

However, as it stands most medical students are there to do medicine, and medicine is I assume what they expect to be doing for most of their lives. Thus, why put all of that business effort into an FP office that may fail when you can just do ophtho and bill crazy amounts.

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Ya it's like falling off a log, really. ;)

 

Yeah exactly! I will bring this point up to my class, in 2010 they better be able to accomodate 138 optho residents from UWO.

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It's really not about money, it's about freedom.

 

You give up the best years of your life to a classroom and residency. Then you discover that you are under a mountain of debt.

 

Then, if you pay really close attention to what the "bureaucrats" are planning for your profession, you will understand that doctors are slaves.

 

You ask for more money because costs are increasing---"No doctor, you are greedy, you shouldn't be asking for money, you should do this work out of your love for the job."

 

You ask for time off---"No doctor, you should be selfless and give ALL of your time to patient care"

An epidemic happens, and you want to protect yourself and your family---" No doctor, there is no evidence that you should get this respirator suit, or an early version of the vaccine, but it's okay, we respect your selfless and tireless care, just don't ask for extra compensation"

 

On that last note, who knows how many doctors got sick or died during SARS, also, who knows if their family got any compensation from the provincial government?

 

Oh and doctors don't get pensions, how much will you need to save to retire? How much per year to retire?

 

Ask yourself those questions and tell me if $90 000 is such a great income.

 

Sorry, these are things I worry about and so should you.

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An epidemic happens, and you want to protect yourself and your family---" No doctor, there is no evidence that you should get this respirator suit, or an early version of the vaccine, but it's okay, we respect your selfless and tireless care, just don't ask for extra compensation"

 

On that last note, who knows how many doctors got sick or died during SARS, also, who knows if their family got any compensation from the provincial government?

 

One doctor and two nurses in Toronto died of SARS. At least one other physician contracted it, along with ~14 nurses. Anyway, you can't second-guess precautions that were taken after the fact - no one knew what SARS was. I think your view of bureaucrats influencing who gets protection is rather ridiculous.

 

Oh and doctors don't get pensions, how much will you need to save to retire? How much per year to retire?

 

Ask yourself those questions and tell me if $90 000 is such a great income.

 

Sorry, these are things I worry about and so should you.

 

Well, first the CMA has a service called MD Management which will assist in making RRSP investments which is, incidentally, how most people save for retirement but few have significant job-based pensions. Of course, this is just one reason why the fee-for-service/private practice model is outdated and burdens many physicians with excessive paperwork and overhead. Running a private practice or even a small group practice is a severe sacrifice of economy of scale.

 

Anyhow, even if someone will receive a pension through their job, they still have to make contributions over their entire work life - these things don't pay for themselves.

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Dude, I know about MD...

 

Seeing that I have seven years of actually practicing the craft...and you have not even started medical school, I think you should pay attention. I am not lying, I have no agenda.

 

My only interest is to open the eyes of students like yourself in a way that wasn't possible when I applied.

 

Whatever...

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