BC Naturopaths imminent to be granted prescribing power/minor surgery/lab/imagi

[Daemos]

BINM in BC the ACCREDIATED Naturopathic College in New Westminister, BC, did you know they do NOT have any labs? No Cadavers, no gross labs, no real facilities beyond lecture rooms. They give students lab assignments they take home to experiment on...somehow.

 

Yea...great...how are you supposed to get real learning without any real labs?

 

FYI, I know some people who went to BINM, well they technically enrolled believing they would get a "MD" Equivalent education, they were given a tour of the facilities BEFORE they started classes, then dropped out the next day.

 

They are very confused to how BINM could even be accredited without proper facilities on site. This has actually turned them off from the Naturopathic path, and they are now doing some searching on what they should be doing now.

[wtkchen]

"Naturopath prescribing: The hill to die on"

BC Medical Journal, Vol. 51, No. 3, April 2009, page(s) 101—Editorial

http://www.bcmj.org/naturopath-prescribing-hill-die

 

Some issues ago I wrote about the fact that the recent Bill 25 permitted pharmacists to renew and adapt prescriptions. I argued that pharmacists who are masters of pharmacopoeia, given limits and conditions, could reasonably be allowed some expansion of their scope of practice. I argued that fighting this legislation would not be a good hill to die on.

 

Unfortunately I found another hill, one worthy of dying on; naturopath prescribing.

 

However, I always felt it strange that once I had exhausted allopathic treatments that patients could then be sold snake oil with absolutely no proof of benefit. I am not afraid to keep an open mind about remedies I know nothing about, but I research their scientific evidence. What I see now, however, is not just an unprincipled expansion of naturopaths into allopathic medicine, but I also fear their contamination of allopathic medicine. So far, allopathic and non-allopathic physicians have been able to live relatively peacefully side by side. However, naturopath prescribing and their expanded scope of practice proposal is a deep foray into the boundaries of allopathic medicine, and gives the appearance of allopathic investiture for the purpose of attempting scientific credibility.

 

We sing from a different hymnal—keep it that way.

 

[wtkchen]

ROLE EXPANDS FOR MIDWIVES, NATUROPATHIC DOCTORS, NURSES

For Immediate Release

Ministry of Health Services

April 9, 2009

http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2005-2009/2009HSERV0045-000871.htm

 

The enhanced scope of practice for naturopathic physicians means practitioners with additional training will be able to prescribe medication as appropriate to their primary care practices.

 

To protect patient safety, the regulations require naturopathic physicians to have successfully completed a certification course before administering, prescribing or dispensing prescription medication. Additionally, the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. will receive access to B.C.’s PharmaNet database system so that it can monitor its members’ prescribing patterns. The College will also establish standards, limits and conditions for prescribing based on the recommendations of an inter-professional committee that includes medical doctors, pharmacists and a Ministry of Health Services representative.

 

“The scope of practice legislation for naturopathic physicians has been unchanged in B.C. for more than 50 years,” said Dr. Lorne Swetlikoff, naturopathic physician and board chair of the College of Naturopathic Physicians of British Columbia. “This move recognizes the current education and skills of naturopathic physicians and allows us to fully support the needs of our patients.”

 

There are over 300 registered naturopathic physicians in B.C. and naturopathic medicine has been a regulated health profession in B.C. since 1936.

 

UPDATE: Official Ministry of Health Document:

"Amendment to naturopathic physician regulation" - April 9, 2009

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/leg/pdfs/BC_Reg_156_2009.pdf

 

Naturopaths can now:

 

1. prescribe non-controlled medications (eg. they can prescribe Tylenol #3, all antibiotics, all mood altering medications - antidepressants, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers including lithium, immune suppressants such as prednisone, methotrexate), "after completing a certification training". A list of medications they cannot prescribe is attached at the end of the PDF file (seems to be mainly narcotics / sedatives / chemotherapy agents)

2. order Xrays / Ultrasounds. Not CT scan.

3. perform minor surgeries at or below dermis

4. perform allergy challenge testing and desensitization

5. insert finger/instrument/device into any body cavity, whether natural or artificially-created

[A-Stark]

And what kind of surgical (or anaesthesia!) training do naturopaths receive? They have no business prescribing antibiotics (particularly if they can't order labs... does that make any sense at all?) or mood altering medications. Where's the training?

[smile]

I'm at a loss for words right now. I just hope people do their research before stepping into a naturopathic clinic.

[ploughboy]

Wanted to point out a couple of classic tactics used by whomever is pushing these changes through:

 

1) If memory serves, the original notification about these pending changes was given to the BCMA over the Christmas holidays, with a ridiculously short deadline for the Association to reply.

 

2) The announcement of these changes was made on the day before a long weekend, when the general public isn't paying attention.

[da_birdie]

It seems like the bc naturopaths have been busy updating their website!

 

Comparing Medical Curricula: MDs vs. NDs

http://www.bcna.ca/documents/comparativecurriculacombined.pdf

 

An Eight Year Accredited Medical Degree Program

http://www.bcna.ca/documents/NDEducation-TheHealingPowerofBeingInformed.pdf

 

Seems like their underlying assumption is that:

100 hours spent in classroom/clinic taught by naturopaths = 100 hours spent in medical school.

 

and that by spending more hours in classes than Yale or Johns Hopkins medical students, the naturopathic schools are superior?

 

Even their official press releases / documents make my quack-sense tingle like mad!

 

 

The Naturopathic Medicine Week 2009

First Week of May

Open Houses / Free Public Lectures / Clinic Events

 

 

_____________________________________________

"Those who believe that regulation is a substitute for evidence will find that even the most meticulous regulation of nonsense must still result in nonsense"

[wtkchen]

Finally made CBC:

 

B.C. gives naturopaths right to prescribe drugs

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/04/10/bc-naturopaths.html

[NLengr]

I can't believe they devoted an entire PDF to comparing hours with MDs (failing to mention residency, of course). Equivalent lengths of education does not equal equivalent education! For all their "lectures and clinical instruction" there's a huge lack of clinical experience.

 

There is also a huge lack of science involved in many of the classes.

 

As I said before, the profession is greasy.

[leviathan]

Finally made CBC:

 

B.C. gives naturopaths right to prescribe drugs

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/04/10/bc-naturopaths.html

 

Wow...soooooo what do we do now? I don't know if I want to ever come back to work in BC now, if a naturopath is deemed equivalent to me.

[Daemos]

*facepalm*

[youngdad]

Wow...soooooo what do we do now? I don't know if I want to ever come back to work in BC now, if a naturopath is deemed equivalent to me.

 

You would still be doing the same work. Whats the big deal anyway? Most of the people I know who go to naturopaths regularly have a general distaste for allopathic medicine already. Who cares if they go see a quack that makes them feel better? Why are some of you so threatened?

 

Maybe if these "doctors" put a larger strain on the system because they are making people sicker with their phony cures. But I think a lot of it is just harmless placebos which, by the way, perform quite well in double blinded studies for countless conditions. I am not comfortable with giving or recommending placebos to anyone, but I am certainly glad there are some people out there that are.

 

I will admit that it is strange to me that naturopaths would want to start prescribing "allopathic" meds. I thought it was "alternative medicine"

 

We will have to see how this one plays out. I doubt it will make much difference to patient care in the end. Just some political dirt kicking.

[BlackJack]

This is all about money.

 

Naturopaths want to get paid more. Being given the right to prescribe true medications, order real tests, and perform ill-defined minor procedures increases their bottom line substantially.

 

The bureaucracy has made its voice clear: the general practitioner is equal to the naturopath. The public, in a cloud of ignorance, will no doubt support this increase in the number of "doctors" - poor quality "doctors", but "doctors" nonetheless.

 

The bell has tolled for the general practitioner. Give it a few years, and people will be able to order their OWN laboratory tests for a fee.

[xylem29]

I think many of us (well, I'm not a med student or MD) are forgetting the fine details - the government is not saying that the ND is equivalent to the FP.

 

"To protect patient safety, the regulations require naturopathic physicians to have successfully completed a certification course before administering, prescribing or dispensing prescription medication. Additionally, the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. will receive access to B.C.’s PharmaNet database system so that it can monitor its members’ prescribing patterns. The College will also establish standards, limits and conditions for prescribing based on the recommendations of an inter-professional committee that includes medical doctors, pharmacists and a Ministry of Health Services representative."

 

Are NDs visits covered by the government? I don't think most people would go see an ND for something that they should see the FP about if it means they'll have to pay out of pocket for it...like if they're looking for antibiotics, etc.

[Fred]

This is crass lobbying pure and simple, and it does the public absolutely no good whatsoever. The pdf's are blatant propaganda. The one comparing ND and MD school is a joke I don't find funny at all. Quantity certainly doesn't equal quality.

 

There is a growing disregard for science and standard of practice in the way governments act toward health policies. Autoregulation, standing and privileges have been earned by the medical profession trough rigor of training, professionalism and use of science. Now governments give these privileges to groups (ND's in this case) who shouldn't have them just because the population wants them to or because of $...

 

The fact that I have to go trough 4 years of med school and 5 years of residency to get the same privilege as an ND who can get them with a "certification course" seriously pisses me off. It diminishes the medical profession and gives legitimity to naturopathic medicine not earned through science. I'd really like to know what those "certification courses" are. This allows inferior standards of practise. Of course they'll claim that since they are not MD they need not be hold to the same standards. This is dangerous to patients.

[A-Stark]

I have no idea where their comparisons of ND and MD curriculums get their information, but I'm certain - beyond the palest shadow of a doubt - that they are pulled out of the air, completely made up, and are dishonest and disingenuous.

[leviathan]

You would still be doing the same work. Whats the big deal anyway? Most of the people I know who go to naturopaths regularly have a general distaste for allopathic medicine already. Who cares if they go see a quack that makes them feel better? Why are some of you so threatened?

The problem is that the government has legitamized their practice, meaning the majority of the naive public is not going to understand that this means nothing in regards to the safety of their practice.

 

Maybe if these "doctors" put a larger strain on the system because they are making people sicker with their phony cures. But I think a lot of it is just harmless placebos which, by the way, perform quite well in double blinded studies for countless conditions.

That's an oxymoron. How does a placebo perform well in a double blinded study? Which studies are you referring to?

 

I am not comfortable with giving or recommending placebos to anyone, but I am certainly glad there are some people out there that are.

I don't follow you. You're glad that there are people out there conning people out of lots of money at the expense of their health?

[smile]

The bell has tolled for the general practitioner. Give it a few years, and people will be able to order their OWN laboratory tests for a fee.

 

I don't think that would be a problem - in fact, I'd be all for that so long as they are simple tests that don't inflict any bodily harm (yes to blood tests, no to x-rays). The technicians that perform these laboratory tests are qualified all the same whether or not an MD/ND orders the tests. I think the real issue is the way these lab results will be interpreted by NDs. If we order our own laboratory tests, chances are we'll still end up at an MD's office looking for a diagnosis, and if necessary, a prognosis.

 

Wanted to point out a couple of classic tactics used by whomever is pushing these changes through:

 

1) If memory serves, the original notification about these pending changes was given to the BCMA over the Christmas holidays, with a ridiculously short deadline for the Association to reply.

 

2) The announcement of these changes was made on the day before a long weekend, when the general public isn't paying attention.

 

Numero deux is so weak sauce on behalf of the BC government.

[da_birdie]

Originally Posted by BlackJack

The bell has tolled for the general practitioner. Give it a few years, and people will be able to order their OWN laboratory tests for a fee.

 

I don't think that would be a problem - in fact, I'd be all for that so long as they are simple tests that don't inflict any bodily harm (yes to blood tests, no to x-rays). The technicians that perform these laboratory tests are qualified all the same whether or not an MD/ND orders the tests. I think the real issue is the way these lab results will be interpreted by NDs. If we order our own laboratory tests, chances are we'll still end up at an MD's office looking for a diagnosis, and if necessary, a prognosis.

 

I actually disagree.. any investigation, including "simple blood tests", result in potential costs to healthcare/taxpayer's money, even potential harm to the patient. For example, if any young Mr Curious reads on the internet that every guy should get his PSA done, and goes out to order one for himself... the PSA may be elevated, but it may be elevated due to UTI, prostatitis, BPH, recent bicycling / ejaculation. Mr Curious goes on to the family physician asking for a rectal U/S, or referral to urology. In this era of defensive medicine, many FPs may be pressured to order further invasive tests/referrals which are unnecessary and incur cost on the public healthcare.

 

The same argument goes if the government later allows naturopaths to order labs.

 

One of the roles of a Family Physician is to serve as the gate-keeper for the healthcare system & its limited resources. By loosening the gate, what will be holding back the flood?

[da_birdie]

I wonder if drug reps will start visiting naturopath's offices.

With their freshly acquired (yet under-trained) prescribing power, perhaps they will be more easily influenced by big pharma compared to MDs?

I doubt the big pharma will distinguish between advertising to naturopaths vs MDs. The ultimate goal is to get as much prescriptions/sales as possible.

 

(I am sure the naturopaths already got plenty of visits from the natural-product reps, with a much more intimate relationship (ie. much less integrity than the MD-pharma relationship) as the naturopaths profit directly from sales of such "natural products")

 

Will they also have samples of birth control pills/blood pressure meds/antidepressant/antibiotics/viagra/cialis in the cupboard, like in a family physician's office?

 

Hmm.

 

I just hope in those CME presentation/dinners I won't have to sit (and argue) with the naturopathic crew~!

[ethanre]

What I am reading is a lot of paranoia, fear, arrogance and ignorance by the allopathic doctors or med students. You need to research the ND programs better, and accept the limitations and failures of allopathic medicine.

 

I am not an ND nor an MD student, i have had chronic illnesses in my family, every single allopathic doctor that was sought failed to help. Naturopathic medicine doctors however did help and "alternative medicine" did work. So much for your drugs.

[ethanre]

It's sad to read all your comments...

 

I am not an ND nor an MD student, i have had chronic illnesses in my family, every single allopathic doctor that was sought failed to help. Naturopathic medicine doctors however did help and "alternative medicine" did work. So much for your drugs.

 

Rather than wonder why NDs are actually successful, your comments reflect paranoia, fear, arrogance and ignorance.

 

You need to research the ND programs better, and accept the limitations and failures of allopathic medicine. Don't be so arrogant, you are not the best there is on this planet. Be humble, you might learn a thing or two.

[Erk]

I wonder if drug reps will start visiting naturopath's offices.

With their freshly acquired (yet under-trained) prescribing power, perhaps they will be more easily influenced by big pharma compared to MDs?

I doubt the big pharma will distinguish between advertising to naturopaths vs MDs. The ultimate goal is to get as much prescriptions/sales as possible.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'd be a bit surprised if big pharma didn't have a hand in the lobbying. The naturopathic medicine field is already a huge cash cow, and now pharma has access to those same purveyors. They probably already have a cohort of sales reps dressed in hand-knitted smocks, carrying hemp bags, ready to go.