rich parents = med school?

[future_doc]

the statistics show that a higher percentage of kids from private schools (high school) graduate and attend some form of post-secondary education that those in public schools. Attendance at private schools is also correlated with family wealth.

 

In comparing public school statistics, children from families that have recently immigrated (either the child and parents immigrated, or the parents did and the child was born in Canada) have a higher rate of attendance in post-secondary education than those that have not recently immigrated.

 

Now tie this together with many people's experiences of the spoiled rich kids, and theories that show a family can go from riches to rags in three generations.

 

The truth is that money can confer an advantage to a person. This makes sense as it can provide an individual with many benefits.

 

However money is an inanimate object, it doesn't have a bias, that depends on how it is used. What makes or breaks you is your parents, and what you learn from them. Why do so many kids comming from money end up screwing it up in life? Because their parents did a crappy job of raising them. Their parents have been influencing their thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, and overall personality since they were toddlers. Now money might give parents a little more leeway in that it won't be until later on that one sees their child being screwed up because the family wealth buffered them for a time, but it is still how good or bad your parents raised you that has the major impact on life.

 

This is why recently children of immigrated families have higher rate of attending post-secondary education, because of their parents. It is not the struggling against poverty, makes these individuals go to post-secondary school it was the family beliefs, and values, and the way their parents raised them.

 

In many ways money can give you an advantage that will put you ahead of the game. In so many more ways having experienced poor parenting and not learning the correct lessons from it can cripple you.

 

In all honest truth if we had more money we would have the opportunity to focus more on school and have more free time for ECs and not have to work part-time (or at least work as much). There is an increased probability that we would be able to afford a better quality of diet, and engage in more activities that would contribute to our well-roundedness.

 

But its late now and I need a fresh mind to reread and consider what you say. I am an immigrant and went to excellent trilingual private elementary and high school, all sudsidized.

[Wolvenstar]

Future-Doc, take your time I check more periodically now that exams are comming ups, I just wanted to add some things though.

 

The problems you see in your friends who come from money are not because they have money and therefore personality problems.

 

Money does not confer handicaps in personality/perceptions/etc

bad parenting = handicaps in personality/perceptions

 

therefore money + bad parenting = handicaps such as a sense of entitlement.

 

I am saying that your friends have their faults, and it is due to their parents not money. If your friends that have this skewed sense of entitlement had the same parents but not as much money, they would have some other negative personality aspect.

 

Although I must add that some children are so resilent that they come out of a poor parenting atmosphere and are still relatively well-adjusted.

 

You also keep talking about how you never felt impoverished or poor. The impact does not come from how you perceive yourself, but how much actual money is available to you (and your family).

 

Even what you talked about proves what I have been saying. It was your mother's parenting style that most impacted your development, and even if you had money when you came to Canada you still would have turned out the way you did because of how your mother raised you.

 

 

But its late now and I need a fresh mind to reread and consider what you say. I am an immigrant and went to excellent trilingual private elementary and high school, all sudsidized.

 

As for having gotten subsidized private school that sounds amazing. However don't believe this is something that is available to all or even the majority of people in the lower income class.

 

Comming from a family that worked itself from lower class (when I was a young child) where both my parents worked almost full-time (father-fulltime mother damn near), to a upper-middle class family a must say that it sounds amazing. Having come from a small town these were advantages not available to me because my family couldn't afford the cost of private school, and with their rising income couldn't get government support. It has been the problem I have experienced for most my life, and alot of middle class families experience this. They don't make enough to fully support their kids through school (either private schools or university) but they make to much to receive government support.

 

The bank's LOC I have survived on while going to school was the only option available to me, however it has added on the expense of paying monthly interest, and putting me 30g in the hole. I am hoping now that I have lived on my own long enough to be considered an independent by the government that I can get financial support, and maybe even decrease my bank debt.

 

 

 

I'm sceptic about the research you've read, as I've seen in school that intelligence is pure biology, and therefore cannot be controled in any way after-birth (only a negligible fraction can). Two very intelligent parents won't necessary make an intelligent children, since the only way to have more intelligent children is with an evolution of the entire nation in a very long period (and not only in one generation); thanks to Darwin.

 

I really don't know how you can view intelligence as pure biology. That completely discounts the number of years one attends school, the support and demands given by family, friends, and teachers. The teaching style of your teacher. What school you went to, etc. I mean kids from low SES are less likely to graduate high school, and even less likely to go on to post-secondary education (ignoring immigrant/recent immigrant families.). Looking at the other side, you also see a higher percentage of kids graduating who attended private school (usually from higher SES families, unless they have subsidization) as compared to public school. Kids from private schools are more likely to continue on in post-secondary education.

 

These are just common stats that the government keeps. Intelligence is not pure biology. The potential limits of intelligence are, what impacts how intelligent you become is social and developmental factors.

 

 

and if going by biology and genetics, two very intelligent parents will most likely have intelligent offspring. There are studies which have shown correlations between intelligence of the parents and intelligence of the children, if still have my one textbook I might even be able to refer you to those studies.

[future_doc]

money + bad parenting = handicaps such as a sense of entitlement.

 

If your friends that have this skewed sense of entitlement had the same parents but not as much money, they would have some other negative personality aspect.

 

Even what you talked about proves what I have been saying. It was your mother's parenting style that most impacted your development, and even if you had money when you came to Canada you still would have turned out the way you did because of how your mother raised you.

 

Bingo!

 

 

You also keep talking about how you never felt impoverished or poor. The impact does not come from how you perceive yourself, but how much actual money is available to you (and your family).

 

No bingo here b/c there was never any money but always had enuf food in the belly, wore hand me downs, got free piano, ballet lessons til we could afford them and no allowance, any money came from work. I found this shoe store, can buy great shoes ofor $5 or $10/pair, but they are piled in hundreds, loose, so you found a beautiful sohoe or boot and fit and looked great, you spend another 30 minutes looking for the other, lol, and it worked. So no money in family, no savings, one parent and we managed, survied and thtrived. Poverty is relative, I come from nowhere in Russia where soap, detergent, toilet paper, bananas did not exist. With essential food and shelter, an inquisitive mind, educational opportunities and no money, youo are wealthy!

 

 

As for having gotten subsidized private school that sounds amazing. However don't believe this is something that is available to all or even the majority of people in the lower income class.

 

Yes, you are entirely correct. As akid, this was the only reality I knew though - and the price I paid was always being picked on by the rich kids, which made me stronger, so I wouldn't change that.

 

 

Comming from a family that worked itself from lower class (when I was a young child) where both my parents worked almost full-time (father-fulltime mother damn near), to a upper-middle class family a must say that it sounds amazing. Having come from a small town these were advantages not available to me because my family couldn't afford the cost of private school, and with their rising income couldn't get government support. It has been the problem I have experienced for most my life, and alot of middle class families experience this. They don't make enough to fully support their kids through school (either private schools or university) but they make to much to receive government support.

 

The bank's LOC I have survived on while going to school was the only option available to me, however it has added on the expense of paying monthly interest, and putting me 30g in the hole. I am hoping now that I have lived on my own long enough to be considered an independent by the government that I can get financial support, and maybe even decrease my bank debt.

 

I hear you. Thank goodness for student loans that can keep us afloat. I realize I will need to pay off my loans, even more so with medicine, but it is a small price to pay to have the opportuntiy to make our dreams come true. And as a result to help others as a career, it is win-win for us as individuals and for society. If I was back in Russia, I might be a fulltime cleaning lady by now.

[deeman101]

I don't have lengthy logical arguments to put forth. All I'll say is money matters. TRUST ME. I would know...I've walked with the rich and the poor alike.

 

 

And parental failures is not related to wealth. There is no point giving anecdotal evidence. I can give waaayy more anecdotal evidence of parental fails in poor families than in rich families.

[GewoW]

I don't know if this is stepping on anyone's foot...but to be honest, I don't really care much. Donations make things happen. It just depends if someone wants to use them to their benefit. Let me explain.

 

If someone's parent(s) donate(s) a substantial amount to a school's medical program, at a strategic time, and then later calls them up and mentions to them that his/her son/daughter is applying...they would have quite a hard time denying their acceptance. I have no problem against 1- donations and 2- parents that donate to school programs their kids are applying to....BUT I do have a problem with parents that donate for the wrong reasons...

 

It is up to the parent to ensure that his/her kid follows a righteous path and ensures their own acceptance into whatever program they want to enter...and not have a way in that others don't. It is also up to the admissions committee to graceously accept a donation but not necessarily see it as an indication of what to do, but I don't really see that ever hapenning.

 

If I was admitted because of daddy's or mommy's money, I don't see myself feeling too happy with myself...and would basically not feel at home in medicine. That's another aspect, but I speak for myself and not others. I'm sure others can shrug that feeling off quite easily...

 

I actually know of a story like this, but I don't want to get into details. I love the guy, but I don't appreciate how he entered the school he did.

 

my 2 cents

 

P.S. I don't really think that rich parents actually have that much to do with a kid getting accepted if they never donate or are in no way tied with the school (influence/rep/etc).

[funzone36]

Who cares? Do what you have to do to get in.

 

 

I never gave a f***.

[Leon]

Who cares? Do what you have to do to get in.

 

................................

[Octavius]

LOL He speaks the truth about the world.

If you want people to donate for the right intentions (i.e. funding the pursuit of education and the institution that provides it) one simply just has to anonymize the donations, no one knows who gave the money except the person who gave it them self. Of course...how much would a school collect on that policy?

[DOC_Ma]

I don't know if this is stepping on anyone's foot...but to be honest, I don't really care much. Donations make things happen. It just depends if someone wants to use them to their benefit. Let me explain.

 

If someone's parent(s) donate(s) a substantial amount to a school's medical program, at a strategic time, and then later calls them up and mentions to them that his/her son/daughter is applying...they would have quite a hard time denying their acceptance. I have no problem against 1- donations and 2- parents that donate to school programs their kids are applying to....BUT I do have a problem with parents that donate for the wrong reasons...

 

It is up to the parent to ensure that his/her kid follows a righteous path and ensures their own acceptance into whatever program they want to enter...and not have a way in that others don't. It is also up to the admissions committee to graceously accept a donation but not necessarily see it as an indication of what to do, but I don't really see that ever hapenning.

 

If I was admitted because of daddy's or mommy's money, I don't see myself feeling too happy with myself...and would basically not feel at home in medicine. That's another aspect, but I speak for myself and not others. I'm sure others can shrug that feeling off quite easily...

 

I actually know of a story like this, but I don't want to get into details. I love the guy, but I don't appreciate how he entered the school he did.

 

my 2 cents

 

P.S. I don't really think that rich parents actually have that much to do with a kid getting accepted if they never donate or are in no way tied with the school (influence/rep/etc).

 

I second that, rich parents=better education i.e. private school + personal tutors etc + No financial pressure etc. Try to compare the GPA of a person who has to work 40 hours per week while at school with someone who doesnt have to work at all. I think rich parents increase the chance of acceptance into med school from many aspects.

[rmorelan]

[/b]

 

I second that, rich parents=better education i.e. private school + personal tutors etc + No financial pressure etc. Try to compare the GPA of a person who has to work 40 hours per week while at school with someone who doesnt have to work at all. I think rich parents increase the chance of acceptance into med school from many aspects.

 

That's likely how better of parents help the most. No way around it- although on the downside there the risk that children of better of parents will lack a certain amount of discipline if they never had to work for anything. I made a killing in uni tutoring people with that problem

 

As for donors directly to university, the donor list is usually quite public. Going to look a bit obvious if parent A give big time money followed by child of A immediately getting in

[rmorelan]

my parents have a lot of money and i work 10-15 hours a week to pay for my books and commute to school. (~$250/month). they only pay for tuition, while some of my friends are on OSAP and parents pay for everything , they don't work/ pay for anything, they can get OSAP grants b/c of high marks. So in my case its a detriment to my chances of getting in to a prof. school.

 

I always found that OSAP rule to be a bit silly actually. There is no obligation for parents to pay for their childrens' schooling. Seems entirely unfair to not only expect it but to actively block some students from access to OSAP out right. Seems to mostly affect the upper middle class families (although I guess the sorts of people who have enough money to give to a med school at level the school would actually be paying serious attention is well above the upper middle class mark).

[Jochi1543]

 

As for donors directly to university, the donor list is usually quite public. Going to look a bit obvious if parent A give big time money followed by child of A immediately getting in

 

You can choose to be an anonymous donor, though, so the regular folk will never have any idea.

[rmorelan]

You can choose to be an anonymous donor, though, so the regular folk will never have any idea.

 

That's true, although at least at the schools I have looked at we haven't have any extremely large donations that are anonymous.

[sfinch]

GeWoJ: Are you a fool.

 

Donations can make a difference at large private institutions, or large public institutions run like corportations. This is true in the USA - but even there, the few cases caught, each had MULTIPLE whistle blowers (suggesting most cases of blatant favorism in the 21st century as premier institutions are caught).

 

Canadian medical schools have strict cutoffs and marks collation. Lists are compiled by computer and are available to a large group of people (secretaries and admission staff), and can be reviewed. The schools get the bulk of their funding from the government - additional donation moneys help with scholarships and some capital projects but are not absolutely critical.

 

Large donations do not get people into medical school. If there was a donation large enought to do that, it would be more money than that future kid could make in a lifetime as a doctor anyways. I cant see how it could happen at schools like UWO and Queen's anyways.

 

Some people are paranoid. In my class, the upper middle class predominates, but there are no CEO children either, and plenty from working class backgrounds - as Rob himself has stated.

 

Upper middle class families tend to be educated, and pass on those values to their children. This idea that rich kids are lazy asses is a hollywood invention - some exist no doubt - but many also ape their parents hard work (through a combination of genetics and or observation/environment), and do very very well.

 

I grew up poor, and understand that growing up rich does have some advantages. But hard work and morals overcomes all. That's why poor jews 100 years ago, and poor asians today do so well economically in a short period of time. Hard work and intelligence hand in hand.

[incognito]

GeWoJ: Are you a fool.

 

Donations can make a difference at large private institutions, or large public institutions run like corportations. This is true in the USA - but even there, the few cases caught, each had MULTIPLE whistle blowers (suggesting most cases of blatant favorism in the 21st century as premier institutions are caught).

 

Canadian medical schools have strict cutoffs and marks collation. Lists are compiled by computer and are available to a large group of people (secretaries and admission staff), and can be reviewed. The schools get the bulk of their funding from the government - additional donation moneys help with scholarships and some capital projects but are not absolutely critical.

 

Large donations do not get people into medical school. If there was a donation large enought to do that, it would be more money than that future kid could make in a lifetime as a doctor anyways. I cant see how it could happen at schools like UWO and Queen's anyways.

 

Some people are paranoid. In my class, the upper middle class predominates, but there are no CEO children either, and plenty from working class backgrounds - as Rob himself has stated.

 

Upper middle class families tend to be educated, and pass on those values to their children. This idea that rich kids are lazy asses is a hollywood invention - some exist no doubt - but many also ape their parents hard work (through a combination of genetics and or observation/environment), and do very very well.

 

I grew up poor, and understand that growing up rich does have some advantages. But hard work and morals overcomes all. That's why poor jews 100 years ago, and poor asians today do so well economically in a short period of time. Hard work and intelligence hand in hand.

 

Sfinch, you are a fool.

[terryann]

Agree with you on that one..

Sfinch is right..it is a computer that determines the applicants who meet the cut offs...atleast at Queens and Western...where essays are required numerous individuals read them......often different people for each question..that is what I heard anyway.

Canadian schools are gov't funded...if someone got in with a 2.5 at Western and other students found out...imagine the havoc especially if the parent was a donor etc...the credibility of the school would be in question...

Students from more affluent families perhaps benefit by not having to take on jobs to support themselves while at school, which takes alot of pressure..so I believe that is the benefit....When applications are submitted, I am sure that the adcom looks favourably on individuals who can work and obtain the cut-offs...

[NewfieMike]

not all parents who are rich even seem like they are rich. That's another variable to consider. For example: my sister and I grew up for the most part on the sketchy salary of a single person. I live a pretty middle class life, with all of my neighbours roughly the same sized house. Let me tell you about my nextdoor neighbours: a doctor, a pharmacist, and 3 kids. Their house is smaller than mine. They don't travel. They have a cabin but it is hardly like a summer home like you see from some rich families. They must have LOTS and LOTS of money, yet, you would never think it unless you knew the professions of the two parents.

[GewoW]

Agree with you on that one..

Sfinch is right..it is a computer that determines the applicants who meet the cut offs...atleast at Queens and Western...where essays are required numerous individuals read them......often different people for each question..that is what I heard anyway.

Canadian schools are gov't funded...if someone got in with a 2.5 at Western and other students found out...imagine the havoc especially if the parent was a donor etc...the credibility of the school would be in question...

Students from more affluent families perhaps benefit by not having to take on jobs to support themselves while at school, which takes alot of pressure..so I believe that is the benefit....When applications are submitted, I am sure that the adcom looks favourably on individuals who can work and obtain the cut-offs...

 

I'm sorry, but computers are run by people...If someone needs to get in, they will...whether there's a computer there or not.

 

And anyone that believes that money can not get you in to whatever program you want (unless you're a complete fool and can't get anything above a C) is just unable to comprehend how the world works...

[sfinch]

AAMC has the full range of mcats and gpas for all schools and i think they publish it in a book. In my class, there is no one i would suspect being below any of the cutoffs - everyone had min 30, and us non-swomen all had >=11 on bio, >=10 on verbal, and qs or higher on WS. Same with people at Queen's.

 

Its easy to make accusations blindly. Prove it, as s hat. Find me one case of this happening in Canada blatantly. How would you donate? Call up the dean and meet him in a dark alley and give him an envelope with unmarked bills? Who benefits - the medical schools are publicaly funded. If money wa no object, I know tons of asian families that would mortgage their homes and give 500K in cash if it got their kid into medical school - I don't see that happening.

 

GewoW...you are an idiot.

[NewfieMike]

I'm sorry, but computers are run by people...If someone needs to get in, they will...whether there's a computer there or not.

 

And anyone that believes that money can not get you in to whatever program you want (unless you're a complete fool and can't get anything above a C) is just unable to comprehend how the world works...

 

yeah I'm actually with sfinch on this one.

 

While I don't believe that insider connections are not completely removed from medicine, I see it highly unlikely that donations traded for seats occurs as much as you seem to think.

[rmorelan]

yeah I'm actually with sfinch on this one.

 

While I don't believe that insider connections are not completely removed from medicine, I see it highly unlikely that donations traded for seats occurs as much as you seem to think.

 

Plus there is another thing to consider - if you have enough money to get into medicine with some million dollars worth of hidden donation, then you have enough money that you wouldn't have to go to Canada at all. Rich people aren't stupid - why pay what a million+ in some donation (which I suspect would be the range that would actually get someone's attention) that might have an effect and has risk of being found out when you can drop a few hundred thousand on a international school, and cover your child's fully expenses + nice lifestyle until they find their way back (even if that requires going through the states for residency). The end result is the same and it is way cheaper/legit.

 

I mean it is really only a 120,000ish more to go to an international school versus a Canadian one. And you know, there is likely warm beach sand involved in international routes as well - and who doesn't like that

 

Actually the wealthier people I know whose children have been unable to go to a Canadian school did exactly this. One is going to ireland, the other is going to Ross. No one is suggesting in the grand scheme of things money can't be used to push your way into medicine but money is generally used more subtly to get things done.

[Leon]

Plus there is another thing to consider - if you have enough money to get into medicine with some million dollars worth of hidden donation, then you have enough money that you wouldn't have to go to Canada at all. Rich people aren't stupid - why pay what a million+ in some donation (which I suspect would be the range that would actually get someone's attention) that might have an effect and has risk of being found out when you can drop a few hundred thousand on a international school, and cover your child's fully expenses + nice lifestyle until they find their way back (even if that requires going through the states for residency). The end result is the same and it is way cheaper/legit.

 

I mean it is really only a 120,000ish more to go to an international school versus a Canadian one. And you know, there is likely warm beach sand involved in international routes as well - and who doesn't like that

 

Actually the wealthier people I know whose children have been unable to go to a Canadian school did exactly this. One is going to ireland, the other is going to Ross. No one is suggesting in the grand scheme of things money can't be used to push your way into medicine but money is generally used more subtly to get things done.

 

Exactly.

 

10char

[terryann]

You are a smart man, rmorlean...I know people who have done exactly that..so in that way, money does make a difference...but not getting into Canadian schools..

[Rudy]

Why would rich kids be willing to bear the great adversity of going through med school, when their parents already have money? Couldn't they just relax, travel, and enjoy life?

[Renin]

Why would rich kids be willing to bear the great adversity of going through med school, when their parents already have money? Couldn't they just relax, travel, and enjoy life?

 

ROFL, I wish I was born into that kind of money.

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