beng Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 i dont agree with you. If you think having a 3.4 GPA on OMSAS scale and hoping to get accepted its foolish, prehaps you should check stats posted on even on this forum where people have been accepted with that GPA ( most recent is on the Queens med school invite/rejection). Again If you are destined to be something you will be it. Impossible is not the realitiy. It is not stupid to have faith in yourself to achieve what is really hard to achieve. Alot of people dont achieve that. Im not providing false hope to anyone. The fact of the matter is relatity is your chances are slim. Stats provide a very useful way of looking at things, we can gain alot of info, however stats dont prove anything. Stats may say the average GPA is say 3.86 of the people accepted with these mcat scores, but there are always always acceptions. Yeah sure it sucks that prehaps you might have say a prefect GPA and a perfect MCAT score but still get rejected, but say someone else might have 3.6 GPA and say Decent MCAT scores and get invited. Its happened. Meds school look for a well rounded person. I have talked to many med schools, they all said the same thing, that sure you can the grades but if you lack in other areas such as ECS or even at the interview you arent able to show the personality thats required to be a doctor, you wont get in. These are facts we already know nothing new. I can tell you that as being a second year undergraduate, alot of people in my university (U of T) tell me that it is hard to get in, your grades wont meet it. Heck the first day when i came to the university as a first year i met with an guidance counsellor and i told him, hey i want to be a doc. You know what he said, your going to fail First year ( This was my first year, first day). Sure i didnt get a high GPA in my first year, but that wasnt enough to tell me that i should give up my hopes of becoming a doctor like many had said before. In fact i realized that i have to work much much harder, do the best i can to give the best shot for my self. I have proven them wrong. The stats were Completely against me. Two points: 1. There's no such thing as "destiny". 2. Nor is there such thing as "alot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md-equation Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Two points: 1. There's no such thing as "destiny". 2. Nor is there such thing as "alot". wrong, there is such a word as destiny, you may not believe in it but i do. This goes into to culture and your own personal beliefs. Im not going to get into that. 2. sorry was typing really fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w8kg6 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 i dont agree with you. If you think having a 3.4 GPA on OMSAS scale and hoping to get accepted its foolish, prehaps you should check stats posted on even on this forum where people have been accepted with that GPA ( most recent is on the Queens med school invite/rejection). Again If you are destined to be something you will be it. Impossible is not the realitiy. It is not stupid to have faith in yourself to achieve what is really hard to achieve. Do you think it's reasonable to send a person down a path where many more have failed than have succeeded? You'd may as well try to become an NHL All-Star, but use 'Rock-Star' as your backup career. If you don't have the average stats of being accepted, it's a logical assumption that you won't be accepted. If you're way below the average (we're talking a 3.4, which is at least two standard deviations below the mean), you'd be foolish to think that you're the lucky one who will get in in spite of your failures to meet the standard that's been set for you. Telling people with <3.6 GPA that medicine is a feasibility for them is the same as telling them lies. They don't have the grades for medicine, and would be better off pursuing an equally fulfilling, equally important, but less competitive profession. Stats provide a very useful way of looking at things, we can gain alot of info, however stats dont prove anything. Stats may say the average GPA is say 3.86 of the people accepted with these mcat scores, but there are always always acceptions. Yeah sure it sucks that prehaps you might have say a prefect GPA and a perfect MCAT score but still get rejected, but say someone else might have 3.6 GPA and say Decent MCAT scores and get invited. Its happened. Assuming you mean 'exceptions', again, it would be foolhardy to pursue something you aren't cut out for. Just because a person can post a sob story on PM101 doesn't mean that they are cut out for medicine. I've seen posts on here where people with a sub 3.0 GPA have gotten encouraging 'sweet nothings' whispered in their ear, but get real, folks. I'm a great swimmer; I swim for my university, and I've competed at the Canada Games, but I know that I'm not cut out for the Olympics. Some people just aren't smart enough, and just because they've made a post here it certainly doesn't mean that they're 'destined' for anything. Get real. I can tell you that as being a second year undergraduate, alot of people in my university (U of T) tell me that it is hard to get in, your grades wont meet it. Heck the first day when i came to the university as a first year i met with an guidance counsellor and i told him, hey i want to be a doc. You know what he said, your going to fail First year ( This was my first year, first day). Sure i didnt get a high GPA in my first year, but that wasnt enough to tell me that i should give up my hopes of becoming a doctor like many had said before. In fact i realized that i have to work much much harder, do the best i can to give the best shot for my self. I have proven them wrong. The stats were Completely against me. So, you're a second year undergrad, and now you're an authority on MD admissions? Let me tell you, as a two time interviewee and as the person who ended last summer in second position on the Dalhousie waitlist that you need the grades before anything else matters. A 3.82 doesn't cut it for a third year applicant, especially if you have a 9 in VR. If you mess up first year, then you're in big trouble for schools that look at all of your courses, and will likely never meet the 3.8 standard for entry to medicine at these schools (fortunately, there are other possibilities in Canada). Like you've said, if you don't have the grades for medicine, that doesn't mean your life is over, but it also doesn't mean you keep pursuing a lost cause that you simply don't have the traits to achieve. Your posts saying that 'impossible is nothing' and that a person is 'destined' for medicine are based in fantasy, and prevent many people from realizing the true potential they can have in other fields. Get your head out of the clouds. Sure i didnt get a high GPA in my first year, but that wasnt enough to tell me that i should give up my hopes of becoming a doctor like many had said before. In fact i realized that i have to work much much harder, do the best i can to give the best shot for my self. I have proven them wrong. The stats were Completely against me. Uhh, wut? So, you're in second year undergrad now... you had a bad first year... and you've somehow proven them wrong? Am I missing something? From what you say, the only academic achievements you have wouldn't really be that compelling for a med school ADCOM member. How have you proven anybody wrong? Marks aren't even out for the first half of your second year yet. All these questions are somewhat off topic, and aren't condusive to my argument that people like you do more harm than good when you send the wrong people down the path towards medicine when they'll be better rewarded elsewhere. The only reason I ask is that I find your logic perplexing and I'd like to hear how you reached the conclusion that you've proven someone wrong by screwing up in your only year of academic studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uvicstudent Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Telling people with <3.6 GPA that medicine is a feasibility for them is the same as telling them lies. They don't have the grades for medicine, and would be better off pursuing an equally fulfilling, equally important, but less competitive profession. I disagree with this. You can't just say a person with a 3.4 is not competitive for medicine because it all depends on their grade distribution over their years in undergrad. Example: Applicant 1. cGPA of 3.9 Applicant 2. cGPA of 3.4, last 2 years(or best 2 years, whatever) 3.9 If both above applicants had MCATs above the cut-off's, they would be considered to be equal academically by UWO's selection criteria. I believe it would be the same for Queens(not as sure though). Obviously its not likely that someone who starts with 2 years of GPA below 3.0 will have 2 years with a 3.9 GPA, but I'm sure you can see the point I am trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leap87 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 People on this thread really like to crush each other's dreams eh? World would be a better place without judgments tossed around. In reality, many of us (or maybe only me) don't know what is possible and what is not possible. It is not for us to decide - we have no control over it. Not knowing is so much more fun than knowing. No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w8kg6 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 I disagree with this. You can't just say a person with a 3.4 is not competitive for medicine because it all depends on their grade distribution over their years in undergrad. Example: Applicant 1. cGPA of 3.9 Applicant 2. cGPA of 3.4, last 2 years(or best 2 years, whatever) 3.9 If both above applicants had MCATs above the cut-off's, they would be considered to be equal academically by UWO's selection criteria. I believe it would be the same for Queens(not as sure though). Obviously its not likely that someone who starts with 2 years of GPA below 3.0 will have 2 years with a 3.9 GPA, but I'm sure you can see the point I am trying to make. You've neglected the basis of my argument. All too often, people on these forums tell people who are unqualified that they can become doctors. Both applicants you've outlined above are qualified, and hence my argument doesn't apply to them. I would be the first person to tell applicant 2 what schools to apply to. The applicant I'm referring to is: Applicant 3: 3.45 best two years, 3.37 overall, 25M MCAT THIS is the applicant who is consistently getting bad advice on these forums, and is potentially missing out on life opportunities because of it. Some people may see me as crushing dreams, but I think this misses the point. What I'm doing is throwing people a life-raft that they can ride to other opportunities instead of encouraging them to flap their arms in the water before drowning 2 - 3 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uvicstudent Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 You've neglected the basis of my argument. All too often, people on these forums tell people who are unqualified that they can become doctors. Both applicants you've outlined above are qualified, and hence my argument doesn't apply to them. I would be the first person to tell applicant 2 what schools to apply to. The applicant I'm referring to is: Applicant 3: 3.45 best two years, 3.37 overall, 25M MCAT THIS is the applicant who is consistently getting bad advice on these forums, and is potentially missing out on life opportunities because of it. Some people may see me as crushing dreams, but I think this misses the point. What I'm doing is throwing people a life-raft that they can ride to other opportunities instead of encouraging them to flap their arms in the water before drowning 2 - 3 years from now. Well said, I definitely agree. I also enjoyed the life-raft analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leap87 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 THIS is the applicant who is consistently getting bad advice on these forums, and is potentially missing out on life opportunities because of it. Some people may see me as crushing dreams, but I think this misses the point. What I'm doing is throwing people a life-raft that they can ride to other opportunities instead of encouraging them to flap their arms in the water before drowning 2 - 3 years from now. I don't think you're necessarily crushing their dreams. You're cautioning them. However, your approach is a bit rough. You can give advice, tell them that maybe they should look into other fields (they might like something). However, it is ultimately THEIR decision as to what they want to do with their life. No? This individual is crushed. You go full out with mini bullets and tell them how they're not good enough. It's really not going to help their a)self-esteem; outlook on their future. If you got a rejection letter from something you really wanted to do and dreamed about, how would you feel? I'm all for giving advice. However, I believe you're being a bit harsh and instead of giving advice, right now, stomping on their self-esteem (which is already low). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamP Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 So this is going to be my pragmatic and empathetic response. I'm all for people being hopeful and people being positively encouraged. I also think stats and reality matters. Yesterday was my 4th rejection thus far, I'm a reasonable applicant but I always knew my Q was a liability and it may be something that I will have to correct in the future. In the grand scheme another MCAT write is actually a pretty small obstacle. People on the left side of the bell curve should be hopeful, a bunch of you (of us) will get in, all I can say is make sure if you are one of those people, you have a legitimate back-up plan in place. Hope is good, but it's not a plan. I have a short-term backup, and a long-term backup if I decide to stop applying and I feel like they will offer me similar (perhaps even more) happiness/satisfaction as meds will so that has allowed me to be somewhat relaxed about the entire process. It has offered me a certain amount of poise and calm that I suspect will make be a better applicant overall. Just some advice to 1st years, HS school students etc. who may come across this. I've posted this before and still believe it. In my first year, I along with probably 300-400 other 1st and 2nd year students, were told by a panel of med students, who obviously didn't understand inflation, that if you got an 80 in every course (3.7 by my school's scale) you would be fine for meds. Now all those 80s are sadly becoming scars on my transcript, so my advice to new students is this. You will need (4 years from now) 3.9+ and 11/11/11 R to be safe, that means at most schools an 85 in every single course. Aim for that and don't take extra stuff on(research, sports,ecs etc.) until you can be sure you are getting 3.9s in all your courses. All those extras are great and important (and you can take on lots of extra stuff and still get 85s) but if you're not hitting it your not gonna get interviewed. All the Best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 So this is going to be my pragmatic and empathetic response. I'm all for people being hopeful and people being positively encouraged. I also think stats and reality matters. Yesterday was my 4th rejection thus far, I'm a reasonable applicant but I always knew my Q was a liability and it may be something that I will have to correct in the future. In the grand scheme another MCAT write is actually a pretty small obstacle. People on the left side of the bell curve should be hopeful, a bunch of you (of us) will get in, all I can say is make sure if you are one of those people, you have a legitimate back-up plan in place. Hope is good, but it's not a plan. I have a short-term backup, and a long-term backup if I decide to stop applying and I feel like they will offer me similar (perhaps even more) happiness/satisfaction as meds will so that has allowed me to be somewhat relaxed about the entire process. It has offered me a certain amount of poise and calm that I suspect will make be a better applicant overall. Just some advice to 1st years, HS school students etc. who may come across this. I've posted this before and still believe it. In my first year, I along with probably 300-400 other 1st and 2nd year students, was told by a panel of med students, who obviously didn't understand inflation, that if you got an 80 in every course (3.7 by my school's scale) you would be fine for meds. Now all those 80s are sadly becoming scars on my transcript, so my advice to new students is this. You will need (4 years from now) 3.9+ and 11/11/11 R to be safe, that means at most schools an 85 in every single course. Aim for that and don't take on extra stuff on (research, sports,ecs etc.) until you can be sure you are getting 3.9s in all your courses. All those extras are great and important (and you can take on lots of extra stuff and still get 85s) but if you're not hitting it your not gonna get interviewed. All the Best. Mmm hmmm, and if you don't get it right, you can do another degree and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md-equation Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Do you think it's reasonable to send a person down a path where many more have failed than have succeeded? You'd may as well try to become an NHL All-Star, but use 'Rock-Star' as your backup career. If you don't have the average stats of being accepted, it's a logical assumption that you won't be accepted. If you're way below the average (we're talking a 3.4, which is at least two standard deviations below the mean), you'd be foolish to think that you're the lucky one who will get in in spite of your failures to meet the standard that's been set for you. Telling people with <3.6 GPA that medicine is a feasibility for them is the same as telling them lies. They don't have the grades for medicine, and would be better off pursuing an equally fulfilling, equally important, but less competitive profession. Assuming you mean 'exceptions', again, it would be foolhardy to pursue something you aren't cut out for. Just because a person can post a sob story on PM101 doesn't mean that they are cut out for medicine. I've seen posts on here where people with a sub 3.0 GPA have gotten encouraging 'sweet nothings' whispered in their ear, but get real, folks. I'm a great swimmer; I swim for my university, and I've competed at the Canada Games, but I know that I'm not cut out for the Olympics. Some people just aren't smart enough, and just because they've made a post here it certainly doesn't mean that they're 'destined' for anything. Get real. So, you're a second year undergrad, and now you're an authority on MD admissions? Let me tell you, as a two time interviewee and as the person who ended last summer in second position on the Dalhousie waitlist that you need the grades before anything else matters. A 3.82 doesn't cut it for a third year applicant, especially if you have a 9 in VR. If you mess up first year, then you're in big trouble for schools that look at all of your courses, and will likely never meet the 3.8 standard for entry to medicine at these schools (fortunately, there are other possibilities in Canada). Like you've said, if you don't have the grades for medicine, that doesn't mean your life is over, but it also doesn't mean you keep pursuing a lost cause that you simply don't have the traits to achieve. Your posts saying that 'impossible is nothing' and that a person is 'destined' for medicine are based in fantasy, and prevent many people from realizing the true potential they can have in other fields. Get your head out of the clouds. Uhh, wut? So, you're in second year undergrad now... you had a bad first year... and you've somehow proven them wrong? Am I missing something? From what you say, the only academic achievements you have wouldn't really be that compelling for a med school ADCOM member. How have you proven anybody wrong? Marks aren't even out for the first half of your second year yet. All these questions are somewhat off topic, and aren't condusive to my argument that people like you do more harm than good when you send the wrong people down the path towards medicine when they'll be better rewarded elsewhere. The only reason I ask is that I find your logic perplexing and I'd like to hear how you reached the conclusion that you've proven someone wrong by screwing up in your only year of academic studies. first id like to say that i do agree with what your saying. Your chances of getting into med school with grades like that is hard, however it isnt impossible. If someone who is really passionate about medicine, will work as hard as they can in order to achieve it. I agree alot of people here may provide bs info. However, you have to look out for your self. People who are guilable and dont accept the reality that hey you what i may not be able to get into med school, are definately being stupid. However im not talking about that. Im not talkin about a fantasy. I am talking from my own shoes. I believe that if i want to be a doctor then i must work as hard as i can. Of course i am well aware at the stats, and what is required and what not. I have accepted reality, i know that it is tough. However it isn't right to give up that easy either. All the things you are saying i have heard over and over. Im not going to sit there and screw my self over. I mean to say, if you have a low GPA say 2.3 or so, and you want to be a doctor, then that is pure stupidity. Now im talking about someone who prehaps is a good candidate for med school. How did they become a good candidate, because they were smart enough to realize reality, effectively come up with a plan in order to strive for what they wanted. I agree with you, some people are not made for medicine and they believe they are when they are not. Some people are briliant and get into whatever they like, but others like me who is your average guy, who has to work for those marks put the effort it isnt just right for me to say hey the odds are agianst me, soo i should sit down and give up on my dream and chase something else. Thats not true at all. This person who is sick of getting rejected can easily go and improve his MCAT Scores, has a very decent GPA and assuming he has good amount of EC he should stand a chance. it isn't right just to dream and hope that dream comes true, but infact what the right thing to do is making that dream a reality by working to make it one. A dream is just an idea, a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 What do you guys the the lowest acceptable cGPA or wGPA of two years would be. I was thinking 3.7 would be bare minimum to have any shot in province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Just some advice to 1st years, HS school students etc. who may come across this. I've posted this before and still believe it. In my first year, I along with probably 300-400 other 1st and 2nd year students, was told by a panel of med students, who obviously didn't understand inflation, that if you got an 80 in every course (3.7 by my school's scale) you would be fine for meds. Now all those 80s are sadly becoming scars on my transcript, so my advice to new students is this. You will need (4 years from now) 3.9+ and 11/11/11 R to be safe, that means at most schools an 85 in every single course. Aim for that and don't take on extra stuff on (research, sports,ecs etc.) until you can be sure you are getting 3.9s in all your courses. All those extras are great and important (and you can take on lots of extra stuff and still get 85s) but if you're not hitting it your not gonna get interviewed. All the Best. This should be stickied somewhere because I'm quite sure its very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wut? Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 This is an interesting thread. The only thing I have to say, though, is that there's a difference from being honest and a realist, and being arrogant. And I agree with Moo...once you get into your clerkship years, you're at the bottom of the totem pole. Actually, it's more like being the person stuck at the bottom of the dogpile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w8kg6 Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 This thread has gone in an intriguing direction, and we're now discussing applicant strength in a general sense. It's cool to see your guys' views. For the record, I'd like to say that the OP was an admittedly weak candidate for 3rd yr acceptance, but I think the stats are there for a traditional application. If you're still reading this, it is in your best interest to flap your arms for a little while longer . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdai Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hay guise wats goin on here? Yes I am the guy that applied 7 times. Just want to say, if I can do it, there's hope for everyone out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hay guise wats goin on here?Yes I am the guy that applied 7 times. Just want to say, if I can do it, there's hope for everyone out there. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnussey Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hay guise wats goin on here?Yes I am the guy that applied 7 times. Just want to say, if I can do it, there's hope for everyone out there. Congratulations! I can only imagine how good that felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wut? Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Knowing Jeff, he probably shrugged and then kept playing CS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDmoBmCYD0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md-equation Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 lmao, you doctor yet? no dad im 12. You talk to me when you a doctor then hahaha priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOC_Ma Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 So this is going to be my pragmatic and empathetic response. I'm all for people being hopeful and people being positively encouraged. I also think stats and reality matters. Yesterday was my 4th rejection thus far, I'm a reasonable applicant but I always knew my Q was a liability and it may be something that I will have to correct in the future. In the grand scheme another MCAT write is actually a pretty small obstacle. People on the left side of the bell curve should be hopeful, a bunch of you (of us) will get in, all I can say is make sure if you are one of those people, you have a legitimate back-up plan in place. Hope is good, but it's not a plan. I have a short-term backup, and a long-term backup if I decide to stop applying and I feel like they will offer me similar (perhaps even more) happiness/satisfaction as meds will so that has allowed me to be somewhat relaxed about the entire process. It has offered me a certain amount of poise and calm that I suspect will make be a better applicant overall. Just some advice to 1st years, HS school students etc. who may come across this. I've posted this before and still believe it. In my first year, I along with probably 300-400 other 1st and 2nd year students, were told by a panel of med students, who obviously didn't understand inflation, that if you got an 80 in every course (3.7 by my school's scale) you would be fine for meds. Now all those 80s are sadly becoming scars on my transcript, so my advice to new students is this. You will need (4 years from now) 3.9+ and 11/11/11 R to be safe, that means at most schools an 85 in every single course. Aim for that and don't take extra stuff on(research, sports,ecs etc.) until you can be sure you are getting 3.9s in all your courses. All those extras are great and important (and you can take on lots of extra stuff and still get 85s) but if you're not hitting it your not gonna get interviewed. All the Best. People told me the same thing and there I was happy like an idiot about my low 80's in first year and thinking boy those are really good enough for med school, then after I did research on my own I found out the bitter truth about what GPA is really competitive for med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 It's ironic too, anyone with a 3.3-4ish sort of gpa could get by in med without too much trouble (they prob wouldn't be top of the class but they prob wouldn't fail either...) its a shame there's not enough funding b/c there are a lot of qualified people People told me the same thing and there I was happy like an idiot about my low 80's in first year and thinking boy those are really good enough for med school, then after I did research on my own I found out the bitter truth about what GPA is really competitive for med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 It's ironic too, anyone with a 3.3-4ish sort of gpa could get by in med without too much trouble (they prob wouldn't be top of the class but they prob wouldn't fail either...) its a shame there's not enough funding b/c there are a lot of qualified people I agree. I really think that an individuals personality is just as if not more important than their academic success. I mean really, what makes a person with a 4.95 a better candidate that a person with a 4.70? They've both showed they're equally capable of attaining straight A's. This is obviously why they have an extensive interview process, but I just can't help thinking that it wouldn't be difficult to BS your personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Being personable, professional, expressing oneself well, verbal and non-verbal communication skills, ethical and critical thinking play a major role. GPA plays an important role, however, other factors are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astudentis Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Being personable, professional, expressing oneself well, verbal and non-verbal communication skills, ethical and critical thinking play a major role. GPA plays an important role, however, other factors are important. sadly, it is gpa/mcat that play a major role among things like ECs and essays, that will determine if you even get an interview first... Then apparently, interview is where you attempt to demonstrate those characteristics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.