Applying To US DO Med Schools - FAQs, Guidance & Canadian Friendly Schools

[medgoal2011]

Most of those schools that didn't know were in Ontario. UBC has a little bit of experience as does one Ontario school. The other Canadian schools in Ontario/outside of ontario have very very limited knowledge of the profession, let alone that it exists.

[Mashmetoo]

Most of those schools that didn't know were in Ontario. UBC has a little bit of experience as does one Ontario school. The other Canadian schools in Ontario/outside of ontario have very very limited knowledge of the profession, let alone that it exists.

 

ic, hopefully, in the next 3-4 years time, things will be even better for DOs in Canada! God knows I'll do my part to explain the profession to Canadian schools once the time comes

[bpatient]

Hey, you did an awesome job with the post, very informative and all. Are you a dual citizen or canadian only? Also I am a bit confused about residency and stuff afterwards...so you finish your DO, then match residency in the US, say an MD school, do you have an MD or DO when you finish?

[Mashmetoo]

Hey, you did an awesome job with the post, very informative and all. Are you a dual citizen or canadian only? Also I am a bit confused about residency and stuff afterwards...so you finish your DO, then match residency in the US, say an MD school, do you have an MD or DO when you finish?

 

Hello, I'm a Canadian citizen, do not have US citizenship/green card. Once you attend a DO school, you will always have the DO title behind your name. You will be Dr. xxxxxxx D.O. Even if you did an ACGME (MD) residency, you'll simply have MD residency training, but an Osteopathic (DO) medical degree.

[Mashmetoo]

Going the DO route is definitely not a deathknell for returning to Canada.

 

If you really want to return to Canada after and don't mind doing FP, the DO route is perfectly reasonable.

 

Why? Worst case is, you would do your residency in the US (a J1 is no problem since you can return to Canada after you graduate). After you pass your US FP boards, you are essentially guaranteed your CCFP (reciprocity agreement). Then, of course you are eligible to practice, at least in BC and ON. Other provinces may or may not recognize the DO degree-check. Only disadvantage is the US FP programs are 3 years as compared to 2 here. But I do think that extra year helps a lot and makes you better prepared to practice medicine, especially if you're planning on doing rural. In fact, if you don't know whether you want to return to Canada or not, it would be better to just do your residency in the US because if you do your residency in Canada, it's only 2 years and you may have trouble being eligible for the US boards. This in turn makes it difficult to get a job with a major employer (like Kaiser) and getting insurance reimbursements.

 

When I was doing a rotation in Victoria and moonlighting there, I met a new DO graduate, who did her FP residency in the US and got licensed fully in BC. Not a hitch.

 

A US MD degree is essentially equal to a Canadian MD if you want to apply for residency. I applied for FP and anesthesia and experienced no discrimination in any of my interviews in Canada for either specialty. (I ultimately chose FP over anesthesia.)

 

http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?p=498781#post498781

[bpatient]

Okay so is there a way to change from DO to MD at the end of your name, cause if I am going to apply to the states, I might as well just go for MD schools then if I can't change?

[Mashmetoo]

Okay so is there a way to change from DO to MD at the end of your name, cause if I am going to apply to the states, I might as well just go for MD schools then if I can't change?

 

You seem confused. DO is DO, MD is MD. You can change DO to MD by redoing 4 years of MD school after your DO schooling. After that, you'll have both a DO and a MD, but you'll still have a DO degree. Other than that, there's no way to "switch" a DO into a MD. If you want MD, go to MD school, even if it's a Caribbean MD school. It's not so much about "choosing" a MD school as it is about actually having a high enough cGPA/MCAT such that a MD school picks you. If you can get into a MD school, more the power to you. Chances are, if your cGPA/MCAT is on the lower side, MD schools won't give you the time of day, let alone an interview. This is why so many people go overseas for med school. DO schools are something quite different (philosophically), although with the same practice rights as MDs. You shouldn't go to a DO school if you want the "MD" title that badly.

[cardiomegaly]

I have a question for you docbill and anyone who has actually gone the DO route

As a Canadian med student who frequently reads the current journals (CMAJ etc) and medical post I did notice that DOs are allowed to come back given certain requirements etc etc details that I won't delve into because I'm not really that educated on it

 

Given that you can in theory come back and practice in Canada, are DOs limited to finding independent practice? I checked out the Canadian DO Association website and googled their officers. It seems none of those Canadian DOs have any association with a hospital department or university. Occasionally you can find the address to their clinic, but mostly it brings up something along the lines of RateMD, facebook or the link to the DO website. If you are granted license to practice in Canada, will a DO grad do solo or group practice with other DOs or is there any chance they can work in the hospital? Would a DO ever be affiliated (in a teaching position, not by research) with the Canadian medical schools?

[medgoal2011]

If you are granted license to practice in Canada, will a DO grad do solo or group practice with other DOs or is there any chance they can work in the hospital? Would a DO ever be affiliated (in a teaching position, not by research) with the Canadian medical schools?

 

The DOs in Canada from my knowledge have their own practices with most affilated with very small/remote hospitals where doctors are vitally needed. In terms of teaching, it may be possible in the future but will be tough as students will question the credentials, perhaps reducing the credibility factor and it may be more difficult to become hired in the first place. Even in the USA, DOs tend to teach at DO schools, MDs at MD schools. Now there is some crossover in some more open institutions but from my experience this is how it is.

[Quester]

Why do most of the people want to come back to Canada to practice? I personally don't see this country with visions and just want to get outta here.

 

What are your reasons? Family? Friends?

[Mashmetoo]

Hello folks, after several months, this thread finally got stickied! To celebrate, I'm going to post some pictures from my school so y'all can see what sunny California looks like (btw, the temperature was mid 30s last week and I had to turn on the AC ). Here's the newest addition on campus - a clock lol

 

 

 

 

 

The best part of my day? - Staring into those distant mountains in the background.

[Mashmetoo]

One more of campus at night

 

[Mashmetoo]

Hey folks, I've wanted to write an update for quite some time, but this is the first instance since school started that I've had a real break to write! I've got some additional advice for premeds and here's what went down:

 

1) The pace of med school is insane! It literally feels like having a fire hose shoved down your throat then turning it on. Another analogy would be like a thirsty athlete who had to drink an entire KEG of Gatorade. The first liter of it tastes AWESOME, by your second liter, it starts to taste the same and you had your full.. but it keeps going!

 

2) Gross anatomy was extremely challenging for me - partly due to the new prof we had this year (who was a surgeon). All her questions were pretty 3 dimensional, and I just couldn't do it, and did horrible on her section lol. I had aspirations for surgery before starting Gross Anatomy, but by the end of it, decided it wasn't for me. You really have to be very 3 dimensional to be good at gross anatomy (and surgery), especially when you hit the abdomen. Added on top of this was the fact that I had no prior experience with gross anatomy in undergrad, so was struggling quite a bit.

 

We had full blown gross anatomy, lectures and dissection labs. We had a cadaver, and we had to dissect every aspect of it from head to toe. I rather enjoyed the dissection, as I had the opportunity to saw my cadaver in half from the pubic symphysis. It was an awesome experience. I also witnessed my group mates sawing the cadaver's head in half - very few people will ever have this experience, so I believe this truly is a privilege. We would get tested on our dissection work. Structures would be tagged on each cadaver, and on exams (after the written exam), we had a lab practical exam where we went around 25 tagged structures, and had 1 minute to figure out what it was and write the answer down. It was pretty challenging.

 

For pre-meds, I would definitely recommend that you somehow get acquainted with gross anatomy, it'll help you tremendously in med school! This being said, a friend I made in gross anatomy class totally failed and had to take a leave of absence. It was very sad to see, and I think the lesson here is watch out for gross anatomy!

 

3) OMM was interesting as well. COMP has a vigorous OMM curriculum. We went through how to perform screening examination, diagnoses and numerous treatments. I'm proud to say that I am now able to treat a few somatic dysfunctions with my newly acquired soft tissue, articulatory and muscle energy techniques I really do believe that learning OMM makes one a better doctor. I've actually seen how a slightly shorter leg became symmetrical with OMM treatment, or a joint stuck in a position get increased range of motion following treatment, it definitely works and OMM could be a very useful tool.

 

4) We started standardized patient encounters right in OMSI. It was scary at first, but after a few times, you just get used to it. This is your chance to act as real doctors while in med school, and the early implementation to Standardized patient encounters is the reason why WesternU has the highest pass rate for COMLEX 2 (with patient encounters) for all the DO schools. I really appreciate this aspect of the curriculum.

 

5) Someone questioned the "caliber" of DO students earlier on in this thread, and let me tell you, that really isn't something to be worried about. The people here are pretty damn smart. I thought I was a smart cookie after matriculating here since I attended UofT and had a high GPA, but after 6 months or so, I'm only at around the middle of the pack. Med school (DO AND MD) are full of smart and capable people. At Western specifically, it's full of people from the UC schools, especially UCLA. I have this secret desire to crush the UCLA students academically lol, and this will be an ongoing project.

 

@ Mourning cloak, I'm not sure what mountain range that is.. I thought it was the Rockies at first, but the Rockies is wayyy to the East of Socal. But it sure is a sight to see

 

Lastly, I wish the best of luck to Virdip and med_73 in their apps to WesternU!!

[med_73]

Wow. thanks for the update and all your posts on this thread. After going through the supplimentary of western and reading all about the school - it has become my top choice.

Also, the campus looks very nice.

[boobiman]

Dear Mashmetoo, its very nice to see people like you being very helpful and giving advice. Ill be applying DO coming summer and will definitely get in touch!

 

Thanks!

[CdnatWayne]

Glad to see your enjoying medical school!

 

I think Gross Anatomy is challenging for a lot of folks including myself, it's just a totally different type of learning. I also enjoyed doing a full cadaver dissection and am glad that Wayne allowed me the opportunity to do so. I'm jealous that you only had a 25 item lab practical, ours were 100 questions and they tagged practically everything! I think Gross Anatomy is one of the few courses in first year that makes you feel like a med student.

 

Enjoy your experience as time flies by, I'm almost done second year and can't believe how fast things are going.

[virdip]

Hey folks, I've wanted to write an update for quite some time, but this is the first instance since school started that I've had a real break to write! I've got some additional advice for premeds and here's what went down:

 

1) The pace of med school is insane! It literally feels like having a fire hose shoved down your throat then turning it on. Another analogy would be like a thirsty athlete who had to drink an entire KEG of Gatorade. The first liter of it tastes AWESOME, by your second liter, it starts to taste the same and you had your full.. but it keeps going!

 

2) Gross anatomy was extremely challenging for me - partly due to the new prof we had this year (who was a surgeon). All her questions were pretty 3 dimensional, and I just couldn't do it, and did horrible on her section lol. I had aspirations for surgery before starting Gross Anatomy, but by the end of it, decided it wasn't for me. You really have to be very 3 dimensional to be good at gross anatomy (and surgery), especially when you hit the abdomen. Added on top of this was the fact that I had no prior experience with gross anatomy in undergrad, so was struggling quite a bit.

 

We had full blown gross anatomy, lectures and dissection labs. We had a cadaver, and we had to dissect every aspect of it from head to toe. I rather enjoyed the dissection, as I had the opportunity to saw my cadaver in half from the pubic symphysis. It was an awesome experience. I also witnessed my group mates sawing the cadaver's head in half - very few people will ever have this experience, so I believe this truly is a privilege. We would get tested on our dissection work. Structures would be tagged on each cadaver, and on exams (after the written exam), we had a lab practical exam where we went around 25 tagged structures, and had 1 minute to figure out what it was and write the answer down. It was pretty challenging.

 

For pre-meds, I would definitely recommend that you somehow get acquainted with gross anatomy, it'll help you tremendously in med school! This being said, a friend I made in gross anatomy class totally failed and had to take a leave of absence. It was very sad to see, and I think the lesson here is watch out for gross anatomy!

 

3) OMM was interesting as well. COMP has a vigorous OMM curriculum. We went through how to perform screening examination, diagnoses and numerous treatments. I'm proud to say that I am now able to treat a few somatic dysfunctions with my newly acquired soft tissue, articulatory and muscle energy techniques I really do believe that learning OMM makes one a better doctor. I've actually seen how a slightly shorter leg became symmetrical with OMM treatment, or a joint stuck in a position get increased range of motion following treatment, it definitely works and OMM could be a very useful tool.

 

4) We started standardized patient encounters right in OMSI. It was scary at first, but after a few times, you just get used to it. This is your chance to act as real doctors while in med school, and the early implementation to Standardized patient encounters is the reason why WesternU has the highest pass rate for COMLEX 2 (with patient encounters) for all the DO schools. I really appreciate this aspect of the curriculum.

 

5) Someone questioned the "caliber" of DO students earlier on in this thread, and let me tell you, that really isn't something to be worried about. The people here are pretty damn smart. I thought I was a smart cookie after matriculating here since I attended UofT and had a high GPA, but after 6 months or so, I'm only at around the middle of the pack. Med school (DO AND MD) are full of smart and capable people. At Western specifically, it's full of people from the UC schools, especially UCLA. I have this secret desire to crush the UCLA students academically lol, and this will be an ongoing project.

 

@ Mourning cloak, I'm not sure what mountain range that is.. I thought it was the Rockies at first, but the Rockies is wayyy to the East of Socal. But it sure is a sight to see

 

Lastly, I wish the best of luck to Virdip and med_73 in their apps to WesternU!!

 

Hey Thanks buddy that was really kind of you I am hoping to hear soon from them! Good luck to you med_73... Did you hear from them buddy?

[boobiman]

On average, how expensive are D.O schools for us Canadians? Any idea?

[Mashmetoo]

On average, how expensive are D.O schools for us Canadians? Any idea?

 

Exactly the same amount that an American would pay, and also comparable to US MD schools (i.e., basically the same amount). Except for 1 or 2 DO schools, the majority of DO schools do not ask you to pay all 4 years of tuition (~300k) all at once in an eschrew account. e.g., at Western U, you pay tuition twice a year, half in August when school starts, and the rest in December. The tuition is listed on each school website. For WesternU, it's around 45,000 this year.

[balaa]

Mashmetoo//

 

Thank you so much for your help. I am actually in my 3rd year right now and had no idea about DO.

 

Now, this is something I am considering but I guess I have to read up on it a little more.

 

Thanks again

[sunshinebound]

I just realized a few things that should be made aware of for everyone who's interested in pursuing the DO route, note that:

 

1) if you're doing family medicine residency - it's 3 years as supposed to 2 in Canada (one internship year, 2 residency years)

 

2) For Ontario: once you complete residencies in the US, you'll have to practice a year to be granted the certificate of registration.

 

"The physician must practice with a mentor and/or supervisor until he or she has successfully completed an assessment.

The physician must undergo an assessment after completing a minimum of one year of practice in Ontario"

 

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1640

 

3) In Mashmetoo's earlier post (P1 of this thread, very informative, thanks again!) - He made a good comparison between the success to matching for US DOs vs. IMGs into US Allopathic residencies. The stats are in the range of about 68-70% for US DOs and 40-49% for IMGs. Although the trend does look more promising for US DOs than IMGs, we should also account for the fact that US citizens in DO school will most likely be prioritized than Canadian citizens attending the same schools. Residency programs may have certain a set budget as to how many international student they can sponsor for the Visa.

So conservatively, the 68-70% success rate should be discounted a little. I'm not familiar with the employer Visa sponsoring process, maybe it's not a big deal at all (let's hope).

 

Not to discourage anyone..just so that there are no surprises down the road.

[Mashmetoo]

I just realized a few things that should be made aware of for everyone who's interested in pursuing the DO route, note that:

 

1) if you're doing family medicine residency - it's 3 years as supposed to 2 in Canada (one internship year, 2 residency years)

 

2) For Ontario: once you complete residencies in the US, you'll have to practice a year to be granted the certificate of registration.

 

"The physician must practice with a mentor and/or supervisor until he or she has successfully completed an assessment.

The physician must undergo an assessment after completing a minimum of one year of practice in Ontario"

 

http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1640

 

3) In Mashmetoo's earlier post (P1 of this thread, very informative, thanks again!) - He made a good comparison between the success to matching for US DOs vs. IMGs into US Allopathic residencies. The stats are in the range of about 68-70% for US DOs and 40-49% for IMGs. Although the trend does look more promising for US DOs than IMGs, we should also account for the fact that US citizens in DO school will most likely be prioritized than Canadian citizens attending the same schools. Residency programs may have certain a set budget as to how many international student they can sponsor for the Visa.

So conservatively, the 68-70% success rate should be discounted a little. I'm not familiar with the employer Visa sponsoring process, maybe it's not a big deal at all (let's hope).

 

Not to discourage anyone..just so that there are no surprises down the road.

 

Woot! over 10,000 views!

 

Thanks for pointing those out. I'd like to elaborate:

 

1) Family medicine in the US is 3 years period, for both MDs and DOs, the 3 year FM residency stands.

 

2) Again, that specific stipulation for practicing with a mentor or supervisor applies to BOTH US MDs or DOs who wants to come back to Ontario, so the Canadian USDO will not be at a disadvantage compared to the Canadian USMD. Also, the 1 year assessment is ONLY if you don't want to write the MCCQEs. But if you did write the MCCQEs, there would be no 1 year assessment.

 

***IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR USMGs - Please Note: As of February 2010, USMGs must complete the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examinations Parts 1 and 2 (MCCQE 1 & 2) order to qualify for an Independent Practice certificate in Ontario. USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 ARE considered acceptable alternatives to the MCCQE 1 & 2 but will mean that the candidate cannot obtain an Independent Practice certificate from the CPSO directly after residency and RCPSC/CFPC certification. Rather, they will be required to apply for a restricted certificate of registration to practice medicine in Ontario, practice with a mentor/supervisor for at least one year, and successfully complete an assessment before obtaining an Independent Practice certificate. The CPSO policy on Acceptable Qualifying Exams can be reviewed at http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?id=1640*** - this applies to BOTH MDs and DOs.

http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

 

For 1 and 2, I'm trying to say that those routes are exactly the same for both MD and DO graduates. No one is more advantaged nor disadvantaged over the other.

 

3) You are correct in saying that a Canadian will probably face more difficulty matching compared to a US citizen, the point I was trying to make there is that as a Canadian DO, you'll still be in a much better position compared to a Caribbean/Australian/Irish IMG. Lastly, if one is not successful in matriculating to a US/Canadian MD school, then the US DO schools will be the closest thing you'll ever get to experiencing a true North American MD medical education.

[moo]

God the Ontario CPSO is so annoying. The USMLE should be made equivalent to the LMCC. The LMCC (particular Part II) was a joke. If you pass the CCFP/FRCPC you should be ok. THe LMCC is redundant and should be abolished IMO. It is just a cash grab for all of us.

[moo]

There is no or very little stigma in the US. Any stigma comes from misinformed premeds or medical students. When I went to school at Northwestern, I had a DO attending in internal med, and a DO attending in anesthesia.

 

However, there is some stigma in Canada, mostly in that people don't know what a DO is. I worked with a DO in BC in the same clinic. Most people were confused. Patients didn't care because they saw "Dr" on his business card, not "DO". But the other physicians were a bit perplexed. Explanations here go a long way. And that's the issue with being a DO in Canada is that you WILL have to explain your degree. You WILL have to explain that you have gone through the same rotations and curriculum as an MD, except with less statistics/epi and more OMM stuff. But for a proud DO, you should be ready to explain away the differences. Personally, I would find it a bit tiring but I think the more DOs we have in Canada, the more educated the physician population will be.

[DubZteR]

- why can't the board exams be just a valid a measure? - In that regard, it is simply a statement of FACT that DOs go through MORE screening than MDs.

 

Oh I forgot to add ..... if DOs actually learn MORE medicine than MD as you have claimed ... then why are they subjected to MORE screening/exams than MDs?

 

btw ... all 5 DOs I know personally rarely ever use OMM and OMT in patient care, so while you learn about it in theory, the fundamental principle on which Osteopathy was founded on hasn't translated into practice/residency training for them.