Applying To US DO Med Schools - FAQs, Guidance & Canadian Friendly Schools

[advair250]

I think that it's obvious most Canadians that traverse this path go in knowing that there is a good chance that they may have to do residency in the US. It's really about balancing expectations. While it may or may not be more difficult to secure residency at UBC or whatever, it is not the end of the world. You still have a great shot to live and pursue your dreams down here. If people can still be content with this possibility, I think going to a DO med school is a great option.

 

Moreover, most US grads (whether MD or DO) are more inclined to stay here and not come back to Canada. And that's really not an option that one has when going the Irish or Aussie routes.

 

Mash, do you intend to come back to Canada? Or are you planning on staying in sunny Cali?

 

"And that's really not an option that one has when going the Irish or Aussie routes." - You mean staying in ireland/australia, or coming back to US/Canada? Yeah, not really an option to stay there, but coming back to US/Canada is still an option currently..in 5-10 years who knows, doom and gloom.

[Slashsev]

island IMGs, must also right the caribbean -form of the USMLE...3x n ur out

 

(from what i hear its another weeding out process)

 

Considering the 18% of IMGs landing a residency in canada (with numbers going lower) and a low % of them even comming back after residency

 

USA is the obvious/ONLY choice you have for adequate GME...

 

American Medical Grads have the advantage here vs anyone else

 

personally id gamble with the 90%match to USA vs the 18% match anywhere else

[Mashmetoo]

I'm confused so please correct me if I am wrong, but don't DOs have to write the COMLEX exams to graduate? whereas IMGS only have to write the USMLE? why would people apply to DOs to escape a test just to write more tests? yes I know USMLE is optional but with the merger failing, it's probably better for DOs to write both sets of exams just like it's better for DOs to still write their OSCE even if they technically don't need it to better their application

 

If you look at the statistics for applicants and matriculants starting in ~2009 to 2013. DO applicants used to be around 40 a year, with 10-15 matriculants. This number has been slowly increasing, and we've hit a all time high of 175 applicants this year. This is a 4 fold increase in 4 years. The number of matriculants has also increased from ~10-15 a year to 40, also almost a 4 fold increase. All this happened when the USDO path for Canadians basically required taking both the COMLEX and most of the USMLEs to get a reasonable shot at the more specialized residencies, and while IMGs had only the USMLEs to take.

 

Now, with the NAC OSCE, the equation has changed in the sense that IMGs have "one extra thing" to do, and USDOs for the most part are not required to do this extra thing. If the numbers of USDO applicants and matriculants can have a 4 fold increase in 4 years when they had to take 2 sets of exams, imagine what would happen if you kept that the same, but made things slightly harder for the IMGs. This is the basis for that statement.

[Mashmetoo]

Mash, do you intend to come back to Canada? Or are you planning on staying in sunny Cali?

 

Either way is fine, I'm set on FM. Let's say I've made arrangements to be ready for both possibilities. I'm mostly interested in FM in Ontario, except NOSM which has rural preference even at the stage of CaRMs application from my understanding. I'd rather do a 3 year FM in Southern California than 2 years in frozen NOSM... I don't expect much from UBC to be honest, but will apply for shiz and giggles. Same for Montreal. Even though you technically should be fluent in French at McGill, my McGill sources tell me something like 1/2 of their classmates have no working knowledge of French.

As for Alberta and Manitoba, I have no intention of being lumped into the IMG pool, forced to do a 5 year ROS just so I can do a 2 year FM program there. Won't be applying to those places, and will in fact lobby the DO med student community to avoid Alberta/Manitoba as well, until they pull their heads out of their rear ends and give us 1st iteration CMG status.

[advair250]

If you look at the statistics for applicants and matriculants starting in ~2009 to 2013. DO applicants used to be around 40 a year, with 10-15 matriculants. This number has been slowly increasing, and we've hit a all time high of 175 applicants this year. This is a 4 fold increase in 4 years. The number of matriculants has also increased from ~10-15 a year to 40, also almost a 4 fold increase. All this happened when the USDO path for Canadians basically required taking both the COMLEX and most of the USMLEs to get a reasonable shot at the more specialized residencies, and while IMGs had only the USMLEs to take.

 

Now, with the NAC OSCE, the equation has changed in the sense that IMGs have "one extra thing" to do, and USDOs for the most part are not required to do this extra thing. If the numbers of USDO applicants and matriculants can have a 4 fold increase in 4 years when they had to take 2 sets of exams, imagine what would happen if you kept that the same, but made things slightly harder for the IMGs. This is the basis for that statement.

 

What he means to say, is that increase is due to Michigan State Universities Canadian Initiative. The jump was not a statistical "4 fold increase" due to any relevance to tests. That has literally nothing to do with anything and are two separate streams of thought.

 

Using his own quote above: "How are those two conceptually linked? Logically linked? Are they even linked? "

[Thomas86]

What he means to say, is that increase is due to Michigan State Universities Canadian Initiative. The jump was not a statistical "4 fold increase" due to any relevance to tests. That has literally nothing to do with anything and are two separate streams of thought.

 

Using his own quote above: "How are those two conceptually linked? Logically linked? Are they even linked? "

 

If you actually take away the 25 spots from MSU Canadian Initiative that would be in 2 more years, the number of marticulants would again drop down to 15-20... and yet you see an increase in the number of applicants every year for the same number of spots.

[Mashmetoo]

What he means to say, is that increase is due to Michigan State Universities Canadian Initiative. The jump was not a statistical "4 fold increase" due to any relevance to tests. That has literally nothing to do with anything and are two separate streams of thought.

 

Using his own quote above: "How are those two conceptually linked? Logically linked? Are they even linked? "

 

Actually, no. Where in that previous statement did I even bring up MSU, or the Canadian initiative? You came up with that yourself, which is not what I said, nor meant.

 

In 2011, there were 40 matriculants, of which 16 came from MSU. So 24 came from non MSU places. In 2012, they had ~20, making it another ~20 from non-MSU sources.

 

Assuming the MSU Canadian initiative goes away, do you honestly think the numbers will go back down to 10-15 a year? I think not. People will simply apply to other DO schools, and the matriculation rate will stay relatively constant, if not increase further.

 

How do you explain the number of applicants, 175 this year, and ~40 four years ago? Did MSU account for this 4 fold increase in applicants as well?

[Slashsev]

with the number..i think you got to look at it this way

 

we are seeing a massive increase in applicants...175 next yr 200-225

 

the DO schools (maybe touro NY X2- MIGHT increase canadian enrollment)-are not that canadian friendly..they DONT take more than 5 a year (aside from msu) --- thats not alote

 

so saying a 15-20 a year taken..sure..and this has held constant to the 5 can students per school rule

 

the MORE IMPORTANT point is:

 

more people are applying

 

 

the popularity of DOs has not dropped.. the number accepted has been low, as more people apply

 

15 (45 a year) with 175 applicants 35% success (taking out students that didnt want to matriculate)

[maple.leaf]

I had another question about some other osteopathic medical schools:

 

I read in the College Information Book that UMDNJ-SOM (now RowanSOM) considers international students, and was wondering whether they're Canadian-friendly.

 

I was also wondering about some of the newer schools: Marian, Campbell, and William Carey all indicate they take international students, and I was wondering whether there's any news about how Canadian-friendly they are. Thanks!

[Mashmetoo]

I had another question about some other osteopathic medical schools:

 

I read in the College Information Book that UMDNJ-SOM (now RowanSOM) considers international students, and was wondering whether they're Canadian-friendly.

 

I was also wondering about some of the newer schools: Marian, Campbell, and William Carey all indicate they take international students, and I was wondering whether there's any news about how Canadian-friendly they are. Thanks!

 

Hard to say as they are new. I'd also be hesitant to apply to these new schools because they probably have only provisional accreditation at this point. Either way, it'll probably be 150-200 dollars of application fees to find out if they truly are Canadian friendly or not.

 

Better yet, just apply to MSU

[zunik]

I think the ones that apply to the top programs (Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, UW, Duke, and a handful of others) are people who have worked just as hard and think that they may have more opportunities if they go to these prestigious reputable schools -....

 

The people Im referring to are the canadians that wind up at SUNY upstate, or Albany state medical college or any of the other unknown universities that have medical programs in the US.

 

There is a big difference between going to the US because you have options and want to get a unique experience at a world class university and going to the US because you can't get into a Canadian school and are willing to go to a nonane medical school because you can afford it.

 

Think he would have slipped through our crack? http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808711?src=mp

 

Not implying CU is a bad school... just thought it was an interesting article to share --- crazies can get in anywhere but.. YIKES!!

 

There are many Canadian students with stellar MCAT, GPA's and even Phd's who do not get accepted for one reason or another. They have worked hard but perhaps they were not lucky with this cycle that is why it takes an average of 2-3 trials to get in. They have two options, either they try again and go through the lottery or perhaps consider other options instead of wasting their time applying all over again. Whether they go to a "brand" name school or not, it doesn't matter - it all leads to the same goal. What matters the most is how that student performs in their residency and their patients.

I have seen many doctors here in Canada and I don't remember asking where they graduated from because quite frankly I don't care. What matters is how the doctor performs. You could be a Harvard Grad and you can still be an idiot and vice versa.

[advair250]

I had another question about some other osteopathic medical schools:

 

I read in the College Information Book that UMDNJ-SOM (now RowanSOM) considers international students, and was wondering whether they're Canadian-friendly.

 

I was also wondering about some of the newer schools: Marian, Campbell, and William Carey all indicate they take international students, and I was wondering whether there's any news about how Canadian-friendly they are. Thanks!

 

UMDNJ-SOM just wants money. Don't count on them to take Canadians. The newer schools, are just that, new schools. They will have growing pains and the likes. WCU has regional bias, so unless you have family or connections, wouldn't bother.

 

MSU is the most Canadian friendly, and accepts the majority of the admitted Canadians.

[Dayne67]

I think the ones that apply to the top programs (Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, UW, Duke, and a handful of others) are people who have worked just as hard and think that they may have more opportunities if they go to these prestigious reputable schools -....

 

The people Im referring to are the canadians that wind up at SUNY upstate, or Albany state medical college or any of the other unknown universities that have medical programs in the US.

 

There is a big difference between going to the US because you have options and want to get a unique experience at a world class university and going to the US because you can't get into a Canadian school and are willing to go to a nonane medical school because you can afford it.

 

Think he would have slipped through our crack? http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808711?src=mp

 

Not implying CU is a bad school... just thought it was an interesting article to share --- crazies can get in anywhere but.. YIKES!!

 

I am just wondering what Canadian schools would you consider as no name? Cause the vast majority of them are no-name in the sense that outside of Canada barely anyone has heard of them. They are "famous" schools but only in the sense that they are well known in Canada. Outside of the country, you just get shrugs from most people.

 

And those people that went to Albany U or SUNY Upstate have a better shot than any Canadian med grad of getting a top notch residency at the big places like you just mentioned. It's true.

 

And you can't really compare places UWO, Mac, UBC, Sask, McGill, or Queen's to powerhouses like Duke, Columbia, UCSF, et al. There really is no comparison at the undergrad or med school level.

[Der Kaiser]

I wish I was as awesome as ConcernedMedStudent...

[Mashmetoo]

I wish I was as awesome as ConcernedMedStudent...

 

You wish you have narcissistic personality disorder?

[concernedmedstudent]

I am just wondering what Canadian schools would you consider as no name? Cause the vast majority of them are no-name in the sense that outside of Canada barely anyone has heard of them. They are "famous" schools but only in the sense that they are well known in Canada. Outside of the country, you just get shrugs from most people.

 

And those people that went to Albany U or SUNY Upstate have a better shot than any Canadian med grad of getting a top notch residency at the big places like you just mentioned. It's true.

 

And you can't really compare places UWO, Mac, UBC, Sask, McGill, or Queen's to powerhouses like Duke, Columbia, UCSF, et al. There really is no comparison at the undergrad or med school level.

 

They are different from those schools indeed. At the the Canadian medical school I attended there was a significant number of us who came from Harvard, Brown, Hopkins, Dartmouth for undergrad - and yes it was definitely a different school BUT your second paragraph is not true - a medical grad from UofT, McGill, UBC would have a much better chance (if they wanted to) to get into a a top US residency if that is what they decided to do (if they wrote USMLEs and applied to the States preferentially over Canada) but like most of the people on this blog - their goal is not to practice or live in the US but to be in Canada and thus many don't bother applying and those that do will often just do their fellowships there and then come back to big Canadian centres.

[concernedmedstudent]

You wish you have narcissistic personality disorder?

 

I suppose - except I get get a long great with all of the wonderful allied health professionals that I work with and never have I had a pathologic obsession with power and status that disrupts my ability to function.

 

On DO/Caribbean/CRNA blogs I often come off this way because I am extremely frustrated with people trying to artificially inflate their own "status/power/ego".

 

It is frustrating when people take short cuts and when people try to elevate their own status without actually having accomplished or earned the privilege that so often comes with the position that they have been given or claim to have.

[Mashmetoo]

I suppose - except I get get a long great with all of the wonderful allied health professionals that I work with and never have I had a pathologic obsession with power and status that disrupts my ability to function.

 

On DO/Caribbean/CRNA blogs I often come off this way because I am extremely frustrated with people trying to artificially inflate their own "status/power/ego".

 

It is frustrating when people take short cuts and when people try to elevate their own status without actually having accomplished or earned the privilege that so often comes with the position that they have been given or claim to have.

 

People with narcissistic personality disorder tend to be very charming, and charismatic in real life. They also tend to be quite successful. Steve Jobs was suspected to have a variant of narcissistic personality disorder. No one's the wiser to their mental disorder.

[Mashmetoo]

Diagnosing people with mental disorders over the internet is non-productive and childish

 

I once correctly diagnosed a person with schizophrenia from solely reading their writings. True story.

[Dayne67]

They are different from those schools indeed. At the the Canadian medical school I attended there was a significant number of us who came from Harvard, Brown, Hopkins, Dartmouth for undergrad - and yes it was definitely a different school BUT your second paragraph is not true - a medical grad from UofT, McGill, UBC would have a much better chance (if they wanted to) to get into a a top US residency if that is what they decided to do (if they wrote USMLEs and applied to the States preferentially over Canada) but like most of the people on this blog - their goal is not to practice or live in the US but to be in Canada and thus many don't bother applying and those that do will often just do their fellowships there and then come back to big Canadian centres.

 

I respectfully disagree. There is a bias against Canadian med grads in the US despite their schools being school's also being LCME-accredited. A lot of it is based on unfamiliarity with places even like UofT or UBC and the rest has to do with visa issues. Matching into a competitive specialty or even IM at a top 30 US institution would be quite difficult for Canadian med grads. Same goes for fellowships. While even at schools like SUNY Upstate or Albany, a decent chunk of grads are able to do so.

 

I think McGill still reserves at least 10 spots in its med school for internationals. Nearly all of these are taken up by Americans. Suffice to say, they have had a lot of issues matching back into the US into the specialties that they want. Many have regretted their decision to go there....

[Dayne67]

 

On DO/Caribbean/CRNA blogs I often come off this way because I am extremely frustrated with people trying to artificially inflate their own "status/power/ego".

 

It is frustrating when people take short cuts and when people try to elevate their own status without actually having accomplished or earned the privilege that so often comes with the position that they have been given or claim to have.

 

Um. Do you routinely visit DO or CRNA blogs for the purpose of doing this? Why not just tell them straight to their face? And what interaction do you have with DO's? In can't be that significant as you live somewhere in Canada.

 

And I am sorry but some people like to think they are important and have status for whatever reason . I guess may be even a few Canadian med students think this while in their bubble up north. But I don't know what they exactly hope to accomplish by posting on a board about American med schools and residencies when they really have not much to do with either.

[Slashsev]

if your going IMG over DO , your a retard

 

the DO concerns from SDN are from struggles in getting top specialties in nice locations

 

the IMG concern is about getting a job/FM at the high end

[advair250]

Nothings black and white. For the average person DO may be the better choice, and for others maybe IMG.

[Slashsev]

Yes it is black and white,

theres a hierarchy for a reason. MD>DO>IMG

 

I think canadians have not visted enough american hospitals to know whats going on AND theres been very little attention drawn to what a DO is

 

like i said before

With DO youll struggle for top positions

with IMG youll struggle to find a job

[Mashmetoo]

 

 

Hey everyone, we will be having another presentation this fall. It will be held at the University of Toronto, on Friday October 18. Everyone is welcome to attend!

 

Also, if you're a U of T student please sign up for the event through the career centre http://www.careers.utoronto.ca/ so we can track expected numbers. Non UT students are welcome as well though!