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Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011


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I think it is more than just protecting job opportunity, it's about the quality of care. Passing the challenge exams simply requires you to be proficient at the procedures tested, and the internationally trained dentists are doing exactly that; perfecting procedures outlined by NBDE. There is no way of verifying that the education they received is credible since they all come from non-accredited schools. I'm not saying accredited schools>non-accredited schools but again there is no way of verifying that since there's no official basis for comparison. Canadian and US dental students have to go through 4 years of dental school before they can sit for NBDE and NBDE part II respectively, why is that? Why not just allow them to challenge the exams when they feel ready? Because no one exam can realistically determine your proficiency to provide dental care, it's the process of education from an accredited program that is essential.

 

Once again I am not saying just because a school is non-accredited that it provides poor education, University College of London (one of the top universities in the world) is not accredited. But at the very least there must be a way to verify that the program they graduated from is at least a certain standard. Would you allow a surgeon to operate on you if he graduated from an unverified program and only had to sit 3 exams to get he's license?

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come on. give the system some credit. ya'll making it sound like these foreign folks that pass the exams do not know what they are doing. To answer your question, yes, i would let that surgeon operate on me because for one, he is licensed to do so! the system would not put out a surgeon who is going to be a liability. And it is not like these surgeons will start performing on their own as soon as the exam is passed. There are policies set in place to transition such individuals to the level that is expected in Canada. secondly, with Canada's health care and the long waits for surgical procedures, i do not think i would even be in a position to turn down a surgery if i need one, and because of what? because my surgeon studied somewhere else? honestly, i personally am not worried about job security. If it becomes very difficult for me to find a job once i am a licensed dentist, then i will go through different avenues! I'm going into dentistry because it is something i want to call my profession. picking where i want to work as a dentist is secondary to me. i think people get caught up with the major cities and the statistics on saturation. do not overlook the rural areas!

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I've said this time and time again.. they are desperate for dentists in parts of this country.

 

The irony though is that most foreign trained dentists want to be in GTA or Vancouver. To ask them to move to Whitehorse, Corner Brook or Churchill would be like asking them to live on the moon.

 

Add to this you millenials who can't imagine living anywhere but an urban centre and the problem is doubled.

 

You don't even have to be that remote. I know of great practices 1 - 2 hours from Ottawa that do very well. I don't know for sure but Id be willing to be that communities like Owen Sound, Huntsville etc are less competitive than the GTA.

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  • 2 months later...

I'm not against foreign unaccredited dental graduates practicing here, but I'm against the number of them without debt that do practice here.

 

This past year about 192 passed the NDEB equivalency process. Now these people have ZERO debt. They will most likely practice in the already saturated urban areas.

 

Only qualifying degree (graduate 77 dentists) should be present imo as they subject these international dentists to debt to which the Canadian graduates have and the graduates of accredited dental schools have (US, Ire, Aus)

 

But to graduate paying 10 grands for your entire dental education and then cruise through equivalency process is just unjust.

 

I think equivalency process should be lifted and few more spots should open for qualify degree program.

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I apologize if this has been covered before but i was just curious, if foreign dentists are allowed to simply write the required exams/get their license etc., then what purpose does the IDAPP serve? I was under the impression that all foreign dentists must go through the IDAPP program..kind of like how they have it set up in the states. 

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lol I don't know about IDAPP. If you to the ndeb website, you will see that 192 dentists last year graduated by challenging Boards directly. Irony is that some people here support this idea but at the same time complain about saturation.

 

So many agencies train foreign unaccredited dental grads for the clinical skills exam, which if they pass, they are on equal level to accredited dental graduate and equally entitled to do the Boards.

 

So you could do this - you finish high school and then go attend foreign unaccredited dental school (India/Philippine) paying 2 grands a year, come here have fun with agencies, pass clinical exam, there you're set. No need to pay 300 + grands going to accredited dental school or pay 180 grands going to Canadian dental school.

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I'm not against foreign unaccredited dental graduates practicing here, but I'm against the number of them without debt that do practice here.

 

This past year about 192 passed the NDEB equivalency process. Now these people have ZERO debt. They will most likely practice in the already saturated urban areas.

 

Only qualifying degree (graduate 77 dentists) should be present imo as they subject these international dentists to debt to which the Canadian graduates have and the graduates of accredited dental schools have (US, Ire, Aus)

 

But to graduate paying 10 grands for your entire dental education and then cruise through equivalency process is just unjust.

 

I think equivalency process should be lifted and few more spots should open for qualify degree program.

You're complaining that someone else paid less than you being unjust? Talk about privilege.

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No your debt level is very important.

 

If someone has high debt level, he/she can work in rural areas to pay off the debt at quick pace.

 

But if someone has no debt, he/she can work in either rural or urban areas, whichever more convenient.

 

Now if the urban areas are already saturated with dentists, then it doesn't make sense to license people who wouldn't mind practicing there.

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No your debt level is very important.

 

If someone has high debt level, he/she can work in rural areas to pay off the debt at quick pace.

 

But if someone has no debt, he/she can work in either rural or urban areas, whichever more convenient.

 

Now if the urban areas are already saturated with dentists, then it doesn't make sense to license people who wouldn't mind practicing there.

But its not the persons fault with less debt, that they have less debt. 

 

Listen its fair to be protectionist, i dont disagree on that front - but at least don't give bogus rationale to support it lol.

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No your debt level is very important.

 

If someone has high debt level, he/she can work in rural areas to pay off the debt at quick pace.

 

But if someone has no debt, he/she can work in either rural or urban areas, whichever more convenient.

 

Now if the urban areas are already saturated with dentists, then it doesn't make sense to license people who wouldn't mind practicing there.

 

you have seriously flawed logic.

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I don't really care about what you two think of my rationale. What matters me is what the president of NDEB and his associates think of my rationale. My legitimate rationale!

 

right...now I think you were just trolling

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This thread is almost as amusing as the IMG threads lol.  Especially with the whole foreign trained people= bad and less competent despite passing the licensing exams Canada sets rhetoric.  

 

Like in the IMG thread, if this is truly the issue, I suggest that the problem is with the regulatory bodies in Canada that set these exams (perhaps the testing format or level of difficulty for both accredited and non-accredited grads is not strigent or comprehensive enough); and with our immigration system which needs to tie passing these exams/obtaining a license to successful immigration (which is capped per year depending on need and can be tied to provincial/regional immigration sponsorship based on areas of need) if points are being awarded based on skilled migration on the basis of being a dentist (not sure if this is the current system or not).  People we bring to Canada need to be people who have a reasonable expectation of finding employment in their fields or the additional training needed or else they aren't really able to contribute to our economy and society in the end.

 

The other amusing thing about this thread compared to the various IMG threads is that the SES argument seems to be reversed here with people who can afford large loans and a high tuition burden (Canadian grads) arguing against those with lower debt and tuition burdens (foreign grads).

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You're out of touch with what the thread discusses.

 

No one was advocating for immigrants not to have employment or anything like that. We were saying that only the qualifying program should exist. You see you don't even know how the system works, so I don't even know how I should be arguing with you.

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Hi there,

 

The oversupply of dentists in Canada is becoming an acknowledged fact.

 

Look at those links and see for yourselves:

http://www.professionaladvisory.ca/practice-management/perceived-oversupply-dental-offices

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/glut-of-dentists-means-tough-times-for-them-good-deals-for-customers-doom-and-gloom-report-says

http://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2013/04/08/dentists_offer_perks_while_facing_increasing_competition_for_customers.html

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/qc/job_futures/statistics/3113.shtml

http://www.rcinet.ca/english/daily/interviews-2012/16-38_2013-03-26-surplus-of-dentists-brings-changes-to-the-profession-in-canada/

...and much more!

 

The following link show the increasing number of foreign trained dentists by exams (the number doubles every year). It went up from 44 in 2011 to 264 in 2014! 264 is equivalent to the graduates of 6 dental schools the size of U of A School of Dentistry.

http://ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

 

It won't be long before the occupation of dentistry becomes saturated.

Dentists in Toronto and Vancouver are already feeling the full effect of saturation. It won't be long before it affects all Canada. In fact, I'm a Canadian trained dentist with 3 years of experience and I'm having difficulty working more than 3.5 days a week in EDMONTON, ALBERTA!

 

Everyone will suffer the consequences: Canadian trained dentists and foreign trained dentists, associates and owners alike.

 

We need to stop this madness ASAP.

 

DMD 2012

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This is a federal government matter. I would share your concerns with the MP you intend to vote for in the upcoming election. After all, the MP who represents you should have your interest at heart.

 

The vast majority of young dentists I talked to are underemployed. They are either working 3-4 days a week or sitting around half the time if they are working 5 days a week. It's a bit easier to find full time employment in rural areas but you need to be at least one to two hours from the nearest urban centre. 

 

Existing clinics are also struggling to make a decent profit.

 

Even if you are a foreign trained dentist or have earned your DDS in Australia or NZ, you wouldn't want to invest much time and money only to find out that dentistry in Canada is no longer what you were expecting.

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This thread is almost as amusing as the IMG threads lol.  Especially with the whole foreign trained people= bad and less competent despite passing the licensing exams Canada sets rhetoric.  

 

Like in the IMG thread, if this is truly the issue, I suggest that the problem is with the regulatory bodies in Canada that set these exams (perhaps the testing format or level of difficulty for both accredited and non-accredited grads is not strigent or comprehensive enough); and with our immigration system which needs to tie passing these exams/obtaining a license to successful immigration (which is capped per year depending on need and can be tied to provincial/regional immigration sponsorship based on areas of need) if points are being awarded based on skilled migration on the basis of being a dentist (not sure if this is the current system or not).  People we bring to Canada need to be people who have a reasonable expectation of finding employment in their fields or the additional training needed or else they aren't really able to contribute to our economy and society in the end.

 

The other amusing thing about this thread compared to the various IMG threads is that the SES argument seems to be reversed here with people who can afford large loans and a high tuition burden (Canadian grads) arguing against those with lower debt and tuition burdens (foreign grads).

 

That's reasonable but unfair for Canadian graduates who end up spending $200-250k and work their butts off to get into dental school. Getting into Canadian Dental schools is also no joke (UofT avg GPA is 3.85+ UofA avg GPA is 3.9). Then you have those who basically bypass the system and work here. Oh and foreign trained dentist usually enter dental school right after highschool, therefore saving them 4 years of their lives. It's unacceptable but I understand at the end it's not fair for either foreign trained dentist and Canadian trained dentist, so I feel there should be a balance where there is only x number of people can pass the board exams a year, with seats reserved for Canadian grads. This would give everyone a fair chance. There really needs to be a change before we reach a point of saturation and we make peanuts (it will eventually happen).

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