Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[Fullmetal_Biochemist]

2013 results are up.

 

http://www.ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

 

Slightly down from last year, but still greater than the domestic grad output of UofT and UWO, combined.

 

Interestingly, the pass rate was 9.5% this year, but the process costs $8800 each time. That's millions of dollars being spent by failed applicants. What a money maker!

 

wonder whose pocket those money will end up in

[uwodesperate]

2013 results are up.

 

http://www.ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

 

Slightly down from last year, but still greater than the domestic grad output of UofT and UWO, combined.

 

Interestingly, the pass rate was 9.5% this year, but the process costs $8800 each time. That's millions of dollars being spent by failed applicants. What a money maker!

 

Do you think they will abolish this process anytime soon?

[donnadee]

thats true that foreign intake is alot...i also worry that what has been overlooked as well is the additional intake of denists from australia, US, NZ which combined with foreign intake will soon outnumber Canadian grads...whats the point of such expensive canadian schooling then?

[Teamplayer7]

thats true that foreign intake is alot...i also worry that what has been overlooked as well is the additional intake of denists from australia, US, NZ which combined with foreign intake will soon outnumber Canadian grads...whats the point of such expensive canadian schooling then?

 

the new classes in Australia -

 

Melbourne - pumping out 30 canadian dentists a year now

Sydney - pumping out 30 canadian dentists a year now

 

 

Thats basically two more canadian schools to add....... 30 dentists make up a large portion of those Oz classes. The dentist market in Australia is already saturated. How can a country very siimilar in size to us be producing so many canadian dentsts on top of our schools and we think our market wont saturate. If I was to do it over again........Im very very concerned

[Ostracized]

the new classes in Australia -

 

Melbourne - pumping out 30 canadian dentists a year now

Sydney - pumping out 30 canadian dentists a year now

 

 

Thats basically two more canadian schools to add....... 30 dentists make up a large portion of those Oz classes. The dentist market in Australia is already saturated. How can a country very siimilar in size to us be producing so many canadian dentsts on top of our schools and we think our market wont saturate. If I was to do it over again........Im very very concerned

 

Where are you getting those numbers from?

[Teamplayer7]

Since Australia was accredited, University of Melbourne Dentistry

 

2011 - class 9 are Canadian

2012 - 20 Canadians

2013 - not confirmed, but told around 30/90 students are Canadian.

 

I know people in the classes, and these are the #'s they have told me.

[limeciel]

Since Australia was accredited, University of Melbourne Dentistry

 

2011 - class 9 are Canadian

2012 - 20 Canadians

2013 - not confirmed, but told around 30/90 students are Canadian.

 

I know people in the classes, and these are the #'s they have told me.

 

For the class of 2013 Melbourne Dentistry, there are only about 10 Canadian students.

[Teamplayer7]

i previously had years class started dates

 

sorry.....i meant to say:*

 

2014 - class 9 are Canadian

2015 - 20 Canadians

2016 - not confirmed, but told around 30/90 students are Canadian.

 

I know people in the classes, and these are the #'s they have told me.

[limeciel]

i previously had years class started dates

 

sorry.....i meant to say:*

 

2014 - class 9 are Canadian

2015 - 20 Canadians

2016 - not confirmed, but told around 30/90 students are Canadian.

 

I know people in the classes, and these are the #'s they have told me.

 

I am in Melbourne DDS 2016, it's definitely not 30, only about 10.

[Divine89]

The number from Australia will likely be increasing as well considering James Cook University (~12 spots) and University of Queensland (2-3 spots) recently got accreditation.

Not sure when the first intake of Canadian students was though.

[Ostracized]

Here's the funny thing - we have a reciprocity agreement with Australia (and NZ and Ireland). So there will be dozens of Canadians studying in Australia. How many Australians will be in Canadian dental schools?

20?

10?

5?

1?

 

My bet is zero. I really don't understand how this can be considered reciprocity when one side opens dozen of spots and the other side doesn't really accept international students.

[cookiemonster99]

Here's the funny thing - we have a reciprocity agreement with Australia (and NZ and Ireland). So there will be dozens of Canadians studying in Australia. How many Australians will be in Canadian dental schools?

20?

10?

5?

1?

 

My bet is zero. I really don't understand how this can be considered reciprocity when one side opens dozen of spots and the other side doesn't really accept international students.

 

It's because the system in Canada is flawed.

If you look at the averages of students that are accepted into Canadian schools vs american and australian schools. I can pretty "safely" say that the Canadian students who got accepted into Canadian schools have a much higher GPA and/or DAT scores when comparing to students that get accepted into american or australian schools.

 

As an example: one of my friends applied to american schools with a cGPA of 3.44 but a DAT score of 23AA got multiple interviews.

With a GPA like that in Canada you definitely won't even have a shot!

It's because Canada has too little opportunities for students that they are trying to fill the gap.

[z3u2]

I really don't understand how this can be considered reciprocity when one side opens dozen of spots and the other side doesn't really accept international students.

 

what's your bet on number of Americans are in Canadian dental schools?

 

reciprocal agreements means Canadian graduates can work there, and graduates from accredited schools can work in Canada, without additional required training. Regardless of citizenship.

[Ostracized]

what's your bet on number of Americans are in Canadian dental schools?

 

reciprocal agreements means Canadian graduates can work there, and graduates from accredited schools can work in Canada, without additional required training. Regardless of citizenship.

 

Probably 2-3 Americans in Canada per year at most, compared to probably 100 Canadians in the US.

[donnadee]

im so curious to know the motives behind the australian/nz reciprocity agreements when the foreign intake was increased at the same time. im curious if they were aiming towards a certain target number of intakes per yr that these agreements collectively satisfy?

[Teamplayer7]

im so curious to know the motives behind the australian/nz reciprocity agreements when the foreign intake was increased at the same time. im curious if they were aiming towards a certain target number of intakes per yr that these agreements collectively satisfy?

 

An Ontario election was won on promise of cheaper healthcare in the future......this was the fastest way to deliver the promise. POLITICS

[dis321]

I am in Melbourne DDS 2016, it's definitely not 30, only about 10.

 

Why do you think there are less Canadian students in DDS 2016 class compared to DDS 2015? Do you think the university accepted less Canadian students that year, or were more student hesitant to make the move to Australia?

[limeciel]

Why do you think there are less Canadian students in DDS 2016 class compared to DDS 2015? Do you think the university accepted less Canadian students that year, or were more student hesitant to make the move to Australia?

 

Couple of possible reasons that I can think of:

 

1) Melbourne dentistry had a severe delay last year when giving out the acceptance offers. I remember that it was supposed to be around 10th to 12th of October, but they released the offers near the end of October. Since Sydney dental school released the offers in early September, many people who have been accepted into Sydney just ended up going to Sydney due to having paid the deposit of ~5k. Not just that, but those who got the Sydney acceptance already applied for student visa and LOC in the meantime, so that probably discouraged people from going through that same tedious process with Melbourne.

 

2) Melbourne dentistry is well known for requiring more complicated prerequisite compared to Sydney dentistry, and that is one of primary reasons why more Canadian students end up applying to Sydney than Melbourne. It also discouraged many possible applicants due to being unable to meet the prerequisite. I already know 5 people who either dropped their applications in the middle, or getting conditional acceptance but ended up not finishing the prerequisite until the deadline.

 

I am not too sure how many students from Canada are in Melbourne DDS 2015, but for our cohort those 2 reasons probably support my argument of why we have less than the upper year. There could be other reasons, but I would say these are possibly the main reasonings.

 

Particularly due to the 2nd reason that I mentioned, it is still the trend that there are less Canadian applicants for Melbourne compared to Sydney, but I'm hearing from many different sources that each year the applicant pool will increase. Even for this year, I heard that many people are actually taking extra courses to fulfill the Melbourne dentistry prerequisite requirement.

[Ostracized]

So I attended a dinner yesterday where Rick Caldwell (ODA President) gave a speech and one of the topics was over-saturation and accreditation of foreign dentists. A couple of points that he made (paraphrasing):

 

The government has been specific about the fact that the only requirement for dental licensure in Canada is competency. As such anyone who can meet NDEB requirements must be allowed to practice. The government is very strict about any attempt to restrict licensing for protectionist purposes. In short - the government is not concerned with how many dentists are licensed in Canada or whether or not dentistry remains profitable. It is only interested in fairness for anyone to become licensed. As such, no associations or regulatory/licensing bodies will be making any moves that would be deemed as protectionist or limiting the number of licensed dentists.

 

Second - according to Dr. Caldwell (and the ODA) there are no longer any under-served areas in Ontario. There are only areas that have sufficient dentist manpower and areas that are over-saturated. Even northern parts of the province are now considered to be adequately serviced.

[mrewmrew]

^Very informative, thanks for sharing.

 

Just out of curiosity, just how hard is it for a Canadian citizen who graduated from a Canadian faculty of dentistry to simply pack his/her bags and head to the States for an associateship, or perhaps remain in the States and practice after completing a specialty training program down south? Are the visa issues highly complicated or is it a rather straight forward process?

[virtual reality]

So I attended a dinner yesterday where Rick Caldwell (ODA President) gave a speech and one of the topics was over-saturation and accreditation of foreign dentists. A couple of points that he made (paraphrasing):

 

The government has been specific about the fact that the only requirement for dental licensure in Canada is competency. As such anyone who can meet NDEB requirements must be allowed to practice. The government is very strict about any attempt to restrict licensing for protectionist purposes. In short - the government is not concerned with how many dentists are licensed in Canada or whether or not dentistry remains profitable. It is only interested in fairness for anyone to become licensed. As such, no associations or regulatory/licensing bodies will be making any moves that would be deemed as protectionist or limiting the number of licensed dentists.

 

Second - according to Dr. Caldwell (and the ODA) there are no longer any under-served areas in Ontario. There are only areas that have sufficient dentist manpower and areas that are over-saturated. Even northern parts of the province are now considered to be adequately serviced.

 

That's what I felt too from the replies I got to my emails about this matter.

 

I think eventually not many people will want to be dentists in the future given:

1. the financial hassles and risks of running a dental office

2. the huge overhead and loans associated with this profession

3. the increasing regulations and complaints/ lawsuits etc.

 

It's going to get to the point where it just won't be worth it.

[mrewmrew]

Well... one thing we may have not considered regarding this oversaturation issue is the fact that Ontario's population is exploding and is predicted to keep exploding over the next 30 years or so.

 

From Ontario Ministry of Finance:

 

Highlights of the new 2012–2036 projections are for the reference scenario:

 

-Ontario’s population is projected to grow by 28.6 per cent, or almost 3.9 million, over the next 24 years, from an estimated 13.5 million on July 1, 2012 to almost 17.4 million by July 1, 2036.

-The annual rate of growth of Ontario’s population is projected to remain close to 1.0 per cent for most of the projection period. (That's around 130k per year)

-The number of seniors aged 65 and over is projected to more than double from about 2.0 million, or 14.6 per cent of population, in 2012 to almost 4.2 million, or 24.0 per cent, by 2036. The growth in the share and number of seniors will accelerate over the 2012–2031 period as baby boomers turn age 65. After 2031, the growth in the number of seniors will slow significantly. (Prosthodontists anyone?)

-Net migration is projected to account for 71 per cent of all population growth in the province over the 2012–2036 period (As always, speaking a foreign language may be helpful for attracting patients etc.)

-The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is projected to be the fastest growing region of the province, with its population increasing by 2.5 million, or 39.1 per cent, to reach over 8.9 million by 2036. The GTA’s share of provincial population is projected to rise from 47.6 per cent in 2012 to 51.5 per cent in 2036.

[UWOStudent89]

Well... one thing we may have not considered regarding this oversaturation issue is the fact that Ontario's population is exploding and is predicted to keep exploding over the next 30 years or so.

 

From Ontario Ministry of Finance:

 

Highlights of the new 2012–2036 projections are for the reference scenario:

 

-Ontario’s population is projected to grow by 28.6 per cent, or almost 3.9 million, over the next 24 years, from an estimated 13.5 million on July 1, 2012 to almost 17.4 million by July 1, 2036.

-The annual rate of growth of Ontario’s population is projected to remain close to 1.0 per cent for most of the projection period. (That's around 130k per year)

-The number of seniors aged 65 and over is projected to more than double from about 2.0 million, or 14.6 per cent of population, in 2012 to almost 4.2 million, or 24.0 per cent, by 2036. The growth in the share and number of seniors will accelerate over the 2012–2031 period as baby boomers turn age 65. After 2031, the growth in the number of seniors will slow significantly. (Prosthodontists anyone?)

-Net migration is projected to account for 71 per cent of all population growth in the province over the 2012–2036 period (As always, speaking a foreign language may be helpful for attracting patients etc.)

-The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is projected to be the fastest growing region of the province, with its population increasing by 2.5 million, or 39.1 per cent, to reach over 8.9 million by 2036. The GTA’s share of provincial population is projected to rise from 47.6 per cent in 2012 to 51.5 per cent in 2036.

 

but you forgot to mention the point that immigrants usually don't have dental plans or insurance and they don't come to dental offices as often (maybe once a year)

[UWOStudent89]

That's what I felt too from the replies I got to my emails about this matter.

 

I think eventually not many people will want to be dentists in the future given:

1. the financial hassles and risks of running a dental office

2. the huge overhead and loans associated with this profession

3. the increasing regulations and complaints/ lawsuits etc.

 

It's going to get to the point where it just won't be worth it.

 

what regulations are you talking about?

 

The ones from CDA?

 

I'm not sure if complaints/lawsuits are increasing though..

[kale]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!