Opening the flood gates: Foreign dentists can challenge the boards in 2011

[DDSDMD]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!

 

Here we go again....

[DDSDMD]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and 1. they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

2. You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

3. Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, 4. if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!

 

1. What makes you say this with such confidence?

 

2. YES

 

3. If money is not a concern then why are you trying to come to Canada?

 

4. Better? This is the most ridiculous claim I have ever heard in my lifetime.

[johnpark287]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!

 

Kale, we are sorry if we offended you in any way but seriously though, we have enough dentists in CANADA!!!!!

[jameskim9]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!

 

I'm not sure if stealing the patients was the major concern.. lowering the dental care quality was one of them though..

[DR.J]

Hello there, I opened an account here specially to post in this thread. Why? Because I was shocked while reading the majority of posts! I can see that you guys are freaking out because foreign dentist are coming in Canada to streal your patients (or "customers").

Come on, are you really afraid? Well I guess that you believe you are Gods after getting your admission to your faculty of dentistry... Let me laugh, really, because admission conditions are completely non-representative of a student's competence. Maybe you did not eat, sleep and maybe you didn't even have a social life because of spending months of hard work hoping to be accepted in these damn dentistry schools. And now you won't let any "stranger" getting around what you consider being your territory.

Let me tell you, foreign dentists won't steal your patients or lower your income. Don't be afraid, they are human just like you, and they have worked even harder than you (many years of experience, and challenging YOUR boards to get the NDEB certification).

You think there are enough dentists in Canada? Really? How can you explain that you need an appointment after several days to get a damn amalgam on a single tooth? That's because dental clinics are saturated...by patients!!

Your concern is about money, money, and money...

It is a matter of competence, if the NDEB exams decide that a foreign dentist is better than you (yes, better, because the passing score is 75% and not 65%), than you will have to accept it, and with smile please. Because a dentist must display a beautiful smile and must be FAIRPLAY!

 

The over saturated Australian dental market is a perfect example of whats happening to Canada right now...........its like a train, once the over saturation occurs, it will take many years after action to make a dent in the problem.

[jameskim9]

The over saturated Australian dental market is a perfect example of whats happening to Canada right now...........its like a train, once the over saturation occurs, it will take many years after action to make a dent in the problem.

 

I thought the Australian dental market wasn't as saturated as here in Canada.. or do you have stats to prove that??

[Ostracized]

I just received notification that next year's UofT class will have 96 students. My class starting in 2008 had 66 students.

 

I would find the overall situation with oversupply hilarious if it didn't affect me directly. 10 years ago we were already having a problem with oversupply in this country. Since then we've seen increased domestic enrollment, licensing of international dentists and accreditation of foreign schools which will vastly increase the supply of dentists.

 

I honestly believe that the whole 'industry' will crash within the next 15 years or less. Then you'll see people like me (domestic trained dentists) looking for alternative work. That's why I stress keeping debt low and living within your means if you choose this career. You cannot count on 40 years of solid income.

 

I was at a course today where I could overhear conversations between practice owners from affluent neighbourhoods: "January and February were slow months, I hope March will be busier". Typical.

[jameskim9]

I just received notification that next year's UofT class will have 96 students. My class starting in 2008 had 66 students.

 

I would find the overall situation with oversupply hilarious if it didn't affect me directly. 10 years ago we were already having a problem with oversupply in this country. Since then we've seen increased domestic enrollment, licensing of international dentists and accreditation of foreign schools which will vastly increase the supply of dentists.

 

I honestly believe that the whole 'industry' will crash within the next 15 years or less. Then you'll see people like me (domestic trained dentists) looking for alternative work. That's why I stress keeping debt low and living within your means if you choose this career. You cannot count on 40 years of solid income.

 

I was at a course today where I could overhear conversations between practice owners from affluent neighbourhoods: "January and February were slow months, I hope March will be busier". Typical.

 

so do you mean the class starting this September 2014 will have 96 students? or will it be the following year?

[Ostracized]

so do you mean the class starting this September 2014 will have 96 students? or will it be the following year?

 

This September.

[jameskim9]

This September.

 

this sucks.. now UT dentistry will follow the pattern of UT Pharmacy where they increased the class size a lot and oversaturated the market??

[koft]

Hi, since you graduated from UT, you must seen enough of past graduating class portraits hanging on the wall in the cafe. The size of class vary throughout various decade. (there were larger than 66 students classes prior to 2008, excluding ITD)

 

I just received notification that next year's UofT class will have 96 students. My class starting in 2008 had 66 students.

 

I was at a course today where I could overhear conversations between practice owners from affluent neighbourhoods: "January and February were slow months, I hope March will be busier". Typical.

 

There are numerous reasons why it is usually busier later in the year than beginning of the year.

 

As for KALE's comment, why have to wait 5 days to have an amalgam repair. There are various factors. 1. schedule already filled for recalls etc, 2. 1st available appointment might not be convenient for the patient.

[mrewmrew]

Hi, since you graduated from UT, you must seen enough of past graduating class portraits hanging on the wall in the cafe. The size of class vary throughout various decade. (there were larger than 66 students classes prior to 2008, excluding ITD)

 

 

Yea I think the same thing happened at Western. A few years ago they had quite a bit more than 56 seats for the incoming class.

 

But honestly though, what is going on with this foreign dentist situation and reciprocal agreements? Why does this still exist.. absolutely mindboggling. The US has got it right.

[seann]

any updates on these foreign dentists flooding the canadian market?

 

This was supposed to pass in 2011 and it's 2014 now, we should have some kind of data now...

 

Trying to decide whether or not to come back to Canada to work or just stay in the U.S

[Everclear]

Ok I am a Canadian dental student in the US and I created this profile to clear things up.

 

First of all, tuition in the US together with living expenses will cost around $400k for the current D1 class when they graduate. About 320k in tuition if the 5% yearly hike continues until D4 and the rest in living expenses. It should be similar for Australia as well.

 

Now in Ontario, the maximum line of credit banks will shell out is 250k (Most will only offer 200k). That leaves about 150k that is gonna have to come from somewhere else. OSAP will only give you about 8k a year.

 

This means it is NOW IMPOSSIBLE for ontario students (I'm sure the most of the rest of the provinces are the same) to go to US or AUS without parents chipping in nearly half . This was not the case for the classes graduating about 3 to 5 years ago when the line of credit offered by the banks sufficed all the expenses of studying abroad since tuition was MUCH cheaper then.

 

There are 3 other canadian dental students in my school. They are ALL from Alberta since the province is rich and their form of OSAP covers all the costs.

 

So I wouldn't worry about over saturation coming from AUS or US, if anything there will be less Canadian students graduating from those countries than there were 5 years ago.

 

Plus, if you can get in AUS you will get accepted somewhere in US. So the Canadians going to AUS are probably just going there instead of US by choice.

 

And if your worried about dentist Australian nationals coming (in mass) to Canada to work, please re-read that statement to yourself again. Why would Australians in mass number immigrate to the other side of the world. There is plenty of opportunity right at their backyard with South East Asia.

[angelapride]

I think CDA do this step because of high job competition. I am agree with Flow Cytometry's point.

[koft]

Ok I am a Canadian dental student in the US and I created this profile to clear things up.

 

First of all, tuition in the US together with living expenses will cost around $400k for the current D1 class when they graduate. About 320k in tuition if the 5% yearly hike continues until D4 and the rest in living expenses. It should be similar for Australia as well.

 

Now in Ontario, the maximum line of credit banks will shell out is 250k (Most will only offer 200k). That leaves about 150k that is gonna have to come from somewhere else. OSAP will only give you about 8k a year.

 

This means it is NOW IMPOSSIBLE for ontario students (I'm sure the most of the rest of the provinces are the same) to go to US or AUS without parents chipping in nearly half . This was not the case for the classes graduating about 3 to 5 years ago when the line of credit offered by the banks sufficed all the expenses of studying abroad since tuition was MUCH cheaper then.

 

There are 3 other canadian dental students in my school. They are ALL from Alberta since the province is rich and their form of OSAP covers all the costs.

 

So I wouldn't worry about over saturation coming from AUS or US, if anything there will be less Canadian students graduating from those countries than there were 5 years ago.

 

Plus, if you can get in AUS you will get accepted somewhere in US. So the Canadians going to AUS are probably just going there instead of US by choice.

 

And if your worried about dentist Australian nationals coming (in mass) to Canada to work, please re-read that statement to yourself again. Why would Australians in mass number immigrate to the other side of the world. There is plenty of opportunity right at their backyard with South East Asia.

 

Most of the issues are not canadian graduate from US or Aussie coming back, the biggest issues are foreign trained DDS immigrate to Canada. There are a lots of them currently working as dental assistant in the GTA or GVR awaiting challenge the test.

[jameskim9]

Ok I am a Canadian dental student in the US and I created this profile to clear things up.

 

First of all, tuition in the US together with living expenses will cost around $400k for the current D1 class when they graduate. About 320k in tuition if the 5% yearly hike continues until D4 and the rest in living expenses. It should be similar for Australia as well.

 

Now in Ontario, the maximum line of credit banks will shell out is 250k (Most will only offer 200k). That leaves about 150k that is gonna have to come from somewhere else. OSAP will only give you about 8k a year.

 

This means it is NOW IMPOSSIBLE for ontario students (I'm sure the most of the rest of the provinces are the same) to go to US or AUS without parents chipping in nearly half . This was not the case for the classes graduating about 3 to 5 years ago when the line of credit offered by the banks sufficed all the expenses of studying abroad since tuition was MUCH cheaper then.

 

There are 3 other canadian dental students in my school. They are ALL from Alberta since the province is rich and their form of OSAP covers all the costs.

 

So I wouldn't worry about over saturation coming from AUS or US, if anything there will be less Canadian students graduating from those countries than there were 5 years ago.

 

Plus, if you can get in AUS you will get accepted somewhere in US. So the Canadians going to AUS are probably just going there instead of US by choice.

 

And if your worried about dentist Australian nationals coming (in mass) to Canada to work, please re-read that statement to yourself again. Why would Australians in mass number immigrate to the other side of the world. There is plenty of opportunity right at their backyard with South East Asia.

 

ok, so you started off by talking about tuition cost in the US and now you're defending the AUS graduates. This makes me think you might be studying in Australia.

 

First of all, your statement that everyone who gets into Aus dental schools would have gotten to US schools is wrong. There are schools in Australia that don't even have interviews to be accepted, and they don't look at your extra curriculum activities, shadowing, MANY prerequisites like English, Physics like most US schools do.

 

Also, the relationship between US and Canada is something unique and the two nations have been sharing a lot of things for the last couple of decades. There are TONS of Canadians living in the states, not just dental students, and there are many job opportunities there too (not just jobs dental related)

 

Now, with Australia, it's a different story. How many Canadians who studied in Canada would live there after they graduate?

 

Not many people know this, but the number of students coming to Canada from Australian dental schools is almost the same as the number of those from the states after they graduate dental schools in the states.

 

So this reciprocal agreement between Canada/Australia is HUGE, considering how many US dental schools there are compared to AUS dental schools.

[McMarauder]

 

Not many people know this, but the number of students coming to Canada from Australian dental schools is almost the same as the number of those from the states after they graduate dental schools in the states.

 

So this reciprocal agreement between Canada/Australia is HUGE, considering how many US dental schools there are compared to AUS dental schools.

 

Proof please. From the Canadians I've spoken to (at least in Melbourne), many are staying behind to work since most, if not all of our dental connections are in australia. Most aren't going to go back without a job lined up already.

 

Furthermore, most Australians are unwilling to move halfway around the world just to work. Seriously, who the hell wants to move from a warm climate to frozen hell? 10C in Melbourne is considered freezing. They wouldn't be able to handle -30C. Life is much better in Australia, and Australians know this. Most would not give this up just for a job.

 

You'd be surprised, there's tons of Canadians and Americans living in Australia and not just to study.

[mrewmrew]

It's March 22nd... snowing and -8 in London right now...

[McMarauder]

It's March 22nd... snowing and -8 in London right now...

 

can't think of an aussie who would put up with that.

[dentopia11]

actually situation is not that great to be honest...not great so much so that the ontario dental association president has expressed great concern about it as well.unfortunately, ODA cant do much when it comes to workforce...looking at numbers alone, there was a recent ODA magazine showing data from the last couple of years or so...the numbers show that after intake from canadian schools, the 2nd highest intake is from foreign dentists who come here and do either licensing or the 2yr qualifying program...this segment also represents the greatest yearly growth...students from US, Aus come in 3rd but intake growth rates have also gone up by a lot since 2yrs ago...so if you're looking at the highest non-canadian school intake, it'd be foreign trained dentists.

[Everclear]

Thank you for your very useful input that is based on official ODA data. If possible could you type out the numbers in the article?

 

I am not surprised the second most intake is from FTD. I question if the 3 tests administered is a reliable indicator of competency. Since it is the schooling through an accredited program that actually develops your skills and not your ability to past 3 tests. IMO those international programs are unaccredited for a reason and the past rate is 1 in 5 for the same reason.

 

However, this is a double edged sword for FTDs since going through the exam equlivancy process would still not change the fact that they earned a degree elsewhere. This could work against them when applying for competitive associate positions especially considering most have not worked as a dentist for many years.

 

The way I see it, word of mouth on the performance of the FTD in practice is going to make or break them, in terms of how hireable they will be.

[dentopia11]

Thank you for your very useful input that is based on official ODA data. If possible could you type out the numbers in the article?

 

I am not surprised the second most intake is from FTD. I question if the 3 tests administered is a reliable indicator of competency. Since it is the schooling through an accredited program that actually develops your skills and not your ability to past 3 tests. IMO those international programs are unaccredited for a reason and the past rate is 1 in 5 for the same reason.

 

However, this is a double edged sword for FTDs since going through the exam equlivancy process would still not change the fact that they earned a degree elsewhere. This could work against them when applying for competitive associate positions especially considering most have not worked as a dentist for many years.

 

The way I see it, word of mouth on the performance of the FTD in practice is going to make or break them, in terms of how hireable they will be.

 

yes, i have the numbers and i will pull them out and post soon..

the thing though you see is that many foreign trained dentists are not even looking to associate, the ones that come in with years of back home experience, however rusty and old that experience maybe and not according to the standard of practice here, alot of them are actually interested in opening up shop..so thats the real thing, moreso than associateships

[Everclear]

Update: More people are being accredited through this as the pass rates increase due to people who took the exams running prep courses for those preparing for the exams.

 

http://www.ndeb.ca/nonaccredited/past-assessment-results

[StriveP]

It's pathetic how most of you guys took on "leadership" activities  or advocated for certain rights at one point in your lives but can't advocate for your own profession. I'm sure most of you guys (including myself) are hating the way these decisions are being made, we need to stick up.