Salaries by Specialty

[Lactic Folly]

Path doesn't do too bad.

[olecranon]

hard to find jobs unless you go rural or have a fellowship in something the institution wants. pressure to publish. otherwise salary 300+

[medigeek]

150K a year for a family is great.

 

Where I grew up; a lot of families were raised on combined incomes of less than 100K a year.

 

Also; you can do private psych.

 

150k is not nearly enough compensation given the amount of training required and more importantly the amount of time invested.

[aaronjw]

150k is not nearly enough compensation given the amount of training required and more importantly the amount of time invested.

 

tried comparing that to the average CDN income?

 

It's a lot of money - more than double the average CDN income and pretty much guaranteed income for life. Where else are you going to find a job that has that?

 

Get a clue.

[Jochi1543]

tried comparing that to the average CDN income?

 

It's a lot of money - more than double the average CDN income and pretty much guaranteed income for life. Where else are you going to find a job that has that?

 

Get a clue.

 

I think 150K is also for working fairly modest hours and in an urban area. My rural preceptor laughed when I told him about the $450K contracts for docs willing to go up to Nunavut, etc - he said it's not much more than what he makes just a few hours outside the city.

[olecranon]

150k is not nearly enough compensation given the amount of training required and more importantly the amount of time invested.

 

i have to disagree. 150k is a ton of money. even in an overinflated city like vancouver.

[rmorelan]

Unless I misunderstood the presentation the Canadian average for FM is 250K according to the CFMS. That is probably a more logical place to start debating from for FM

[LostLamb]

I think 150K is also for working fairly modest hours and in an urban area. My rural preceptor laughed when I told him about the $450K contracts for docs willing to go up to Nunavut, etc - he said it's not much more than what he makes just a few hours outside the city.

 

Yup, I've heard the same.

 

Also, definitely feasible to make 200-250k in FM urban practice. I've seen the math and it plays out....furthermore, that's with a generous vacation and <40h/week.

[goleafsgochris]

I have to say, this is not what I have seen (Im in Toronto). If it were so easy to make 200-250k on a 40hr work week, why wouldnt everyone do that?? Do you guys think that some docs just hate making money lol?

 

From what I have seen, 40hrs/week in Toronto = 140-150k. 200k+ is possible if you totally work your ass off, with quite long hours.

 

Unless you guys are not accounting for overhead, which I suspect you may not be, in which case your numbers are very inflated.

[medigeek]

I have to say, this is not what I have seen (Im in Toronto). If it were so easy to make 200-250k on a 40hr work week, why wouldnt everyone do that?? Do you guys think that some docs just hate making money lol?

 

From what I have seen, 40hrs/week in Toronto = 140-150k. 200k+ is possible if you totally work your ass off, with quite long hours.

 

Unless you guys are not accounting for overhead, which I suspect you may not be, in which case your numbers are very inflated.

 

Isnt there some family health network thing that has some family docs making over 400k because they take more patients on their rosters and provide some extra services? I read that on here.

 

As well, someone can orient their practice towards making more money. I know an "acne specialist" who's just a FM guy, and a LOW estimate for the money he makes would be ~800k a year (very srs). The rate that he sees patients is amazing and the sheer volume of patients he has is amazing as well.

 

So it seems to be all about how you do it in FM. You can be the "hand on the doorknob" type of doc where you wanna fly room to room to get as many patients as possible to make 30% more cash... or take your time and not make as much.

[LostLamb]

I think there is some province-dependent variances. I am referring to AB...and I can't remember if it is plus/minus overhead. You are probably right, it likely doesn't include overhead, but depending on your complex care patient contracts/PCN membership and so on one can do very reasonably.

 

Frankly, making 150k+ after overhead is nothing to sneeze at. Add a physician spouse and you're doing more than fine. As medigeek said, in some ways it is in knowing how to bill (which I don't know...but am learning about alongside everything else). YMMV.

[moo]

I have to say, this is not what I have seen (Im in Toronto). If it were so easy to make 200-250k on a 40hr work week, why wouldnt everyone do that?? Do you guys think that some docs just hate making money lol?

 

From what I have seen, 40hrs/week in Toronto = 140-150k. 200k+ is possible if you totally work your ass off, with quite long hours.

 

Unless you guys are not accounting for overhead, which I suspect you may not be, in which case your numbers are very inflated.

 

I billed 300K (just on MSP billings) last year working 25 hours a week, while being a fulltime resident. Add in all the privates/WCB/ICBC/medicolegals that I do, I easily billed over 330K. Even after overhead, I still dumped 250K in my corporation (before the 13.5% corporate taxes I have to pay). I live on my residency salary, which is more than enough to pay the mortgage on a 1.5 million dollar townhome (with a 500K downpayment) in Vancouver. This is all 3 years out of FM residency. Manage your money well, get a good accountant, incorporate and you'll be fine. Wait a few more years, I'll set up a holding company and dump more money into real estate, rent these places out and just have free money coming in.

 

My GP colleague who also does immigration medicals (which are a gold mine, if you can get on their wait list to get trained) bills over 3000 bucks a DAY. Overhead is nothing (as a percentage) as he is an associate. Do the math to figure out how much he makes a year.

 

GPs who complain they can't make money are lazy and don't know how to be efficient. I see GPs complaining when they are on Facebook half the time playing games rather than seeing patients or being efficient. They are also financially-inept (like most medical students are when they first start) and if they don't take the time to learn, or spend the money to hire a good accountant, they lose out. Your corporation is your friend... plan your investments wisely, defer taxes so you can invest your money better and you'll be good.

 

I cringe when med students think they can't make money or can't live on 150k a year. My engineering cousin makes just over 100k, salaried, and has bought a nice 1.4 million dollar house in Vancouver with his wife. Rents out the basement and he lives comfortably.

 

Truthfully, you won't be able to live on several million bucks a year if you spend like crazy. Look at how many celebrities and athletes who have gone bankrupt. When all is said and done, 75K a year is the magic number when people are the happiest. Almost all docs will easily surpass this number.

[Pantaloons]

Hey moo,

 

I'm interested in family myself and your posts are great.

I'm curious: Did you have a background in finance before starting residency? Unfortunately, my background is mostly science, and at this point I'm really unfamiliar with lots of financial stuff.

 

How did you learn? How can we learn?

[moo]

Hey moo,

 

I'm interested in family myself and your posts are great.

I'm curious: Did you have a background in finance before starting residency? Unfortunately, my background is mostly science, and at this point I'm really unfamiliar with lots of financial stuff.

 

How did you learn? How can we learn?

 

There are many tax planning seminars put on by various accountants, your local and provincial medical associations, etc. (In fact, I was at a talk with an accountant yesterday with free dinner and a Canucks game--he obviously wanted our business.) My undergrad was in math and physics--so not related to finance at all but it doesn't take a genius to learn quickly. It pays to also start researching this stuff while you are in residency and even in medical school so you know what you are getting into when you choose your specialty. Do not neglect this part of your training. Medical schools do a horrible job preparing their students for the financial aspect of medicine but there are ways to make this up. If you plan well, you will be happier, and less stressed about making money.

 

But in the end, even if you are totally financially inept and only net 150K a year, and don't know anything about investments, that is a ton of money!

[rmorelan]

I have to say, this is not what I have seen (Im in Toronto). If it were so easy to make 200-250k on a 40hr work week, why wouldnt everyone do that?? Do you guys think that some docs just hate making money lol?

 

From what I have seen, 40hrs/week in Toronto = 140-150k. 200k+ is possible if you totally work your ass off, with quite long hours.

 

Unless you guys are not accounting for overhead, which I suspect you may not be, in which case your numbers are very inflated.

 

According to the CFMS that 250K was take home pay levels after expenses on average

[moo]

Because some people don't like family? not that hard to understand.

 

my experience has been on par with what Moo is saying. A smart GP who knows how to bill and is efficient can make a lot of money. Management of expenses is another big issue as well.

 

For most of my friends, their experience is around the same. If you're making only 140-150k as a GP you are 1) doing something wrong or 2) have some other priorities other than making money (perhaps you've taken on more complex patients or something).

 

A lot of docs also only book 20-30 patients a day. You can't make money if that's all you're seeing (unless you're only seeing IME's or privates).

 

Thing is, a lot of docs spend hours after seeing patients just on charting. Then they spend more time reviewing lab results, returning phone calls, etc. People can chart while in the room. You save that for the end of the day and you forget what you saw the patient for and you end up wasting time trying to remember the history and exam findings and remembering what tests you ordered. Reviewing labs is important--shouldn't take short cuts for that, but some docs spend a whole afternoon doing that AND also writing out referral letters, etc. when you should all be doing that during the visit so it's done and out of the way and your mind is fresh. Calling back a patient is important--if the patient has cancer or some new diagnosis and needs support or if you really need them to come in to review an urgent result. Routinely doing that is bad practice (you can miss subtle diagnostic clues if they're not in front of you).

[Prince Medward]

I have the MSP blue book (which tells you how much MSP paid to individual doctors in BC) downloaded on my iphone and whenever I walk by a doctor's office I like to look them up and see how much they bill.

 

By checking on the spot like that you can also get a sense of how big their office is, whether it is a street level storefront (higher rent) or second floor or in an office tower and how big the space is, etc. That gives you a very rough idea of overhead. At least you have some information about the overhead albeit incomplete.

 

I'm shocked to find many family doctors who are billing MSP for $650K-$750K. I'd say that around 15% of the doctors I check are in that range. And judging by their office size, location etc, lease payments should not be more than $40,000 a year. Lets say that their total expenses, including lease, staff and supplies etc, come to $200K. They still come away with $450k-$550K before taxes.

 

What do you have to do to bill MSP for $650k-$750k as a GP?

[moo]

I have the MSP blue book (which tells you how much MSP paid to individual doctors in BC) downloaded on my iphone and whenever I walk by a doctor's office I like to look them up and see how much they bill.

 

By checking on the spot like that you can also get a sense of how big their office is, whether it is a street level storefront (higher rent) or second floor or in an office tower and how big the space is, etc. That gives you a very rough idea of overheard. At least you have some information about the overhead albeit incomplete.

 

I'm shocked to find many family doctors who are billing MSP for $650K-$750K. I'd say that around 15% of the doctors I check are in that range. And judging by their office size, location etc, lease payments should not be more than $40,000 a year. Lets say that their total expenses, including lease, staff and supplies etc, come to $200K. They still come away with $450k-$550K before taxes.

 

What do you have to do to bill MSP for $650k-$750k as a GP?

 

This is only MSP billings so some things that come to mind:

 

-chronic disease fees, including mental health management fees

-conferencing fees

-nursing home fees, including phone calls

-hospital work

-call back fees

-obstetrics (most don't do obstetrics but this can be lucrative if you're willing to sacrifice your life)

-surgical assists

-simple surgeries (vasectomies, biopsies, mole removals, etc.)

 

What they actually bill is a lot more than that. I'd add at least another 10-20% on top of their gross billings to account for private and non-MSP billings.

[Dany]

According to the CFMS that 250K was take home pay levels after expenses on average

 

wait... do you mean the average TAKE HOME income for family docs is 250k? Do you mean in cities like Toronto or in outlying areas?

 

I might buy it if you mean in some rural practices, but I srsly don't think you could make that much in big cities...

[Dany]

This is only MSP billings so some things that come to mind:

 

-chronic disease fees, including mental health management fees

-conferencing fees

-nursing home fees, including phone calls

-hospital work

-call back fees

-obstetrics (most don't do obstetrics but this can be lucrative if you're willing to sacrifice your life)

-surgical assists

-simple surgeries (vasectomies, biopsies, mole removals, etc.)

 

What they actually bill is a lot more than that. I'd add at least another 10-20% on top of their gross billings to account for private and non-MSP billings.

 

Average Gross Fee-for-Service Payment per Physician (2008-2009)

Fam med in BC = 230627$

the highest in Canada is Alberta, which is still a meager 277491$

 

source: National Physician Database, 2008–2009

https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/productFamily.htm?locale=en&pf=PFC1566

 

I hope it's not true though... looks way off from the 300k's, 400k's I see above

[justletmein]

the highest in Canada is Alberta, which is still a meager 277491$

 

I hope it's not true though... looks way off from the 300k's, 400k's I see above

 

First of all, the GP's in Canada earning between 300-500K represent about 5-10% of all family physicians -- they are the ones who have set up their practices with the sole purpose of earning $$$$.

 

Second of all, you people need to get a grip!!!!!!

A MEAGER 277491$?????

 

Explain to me please... what could you not afford on this salary that 400K would allow you?

[aaronjw]

It's all relative, man.

 

Im sure the person making $50K/yr is saying that exact same thing lol

[justletmein]

It's all relative, man.

 

 

I know, but I just find it funny (and sad) that once people get into med school they lose all sense of what a good salary is....

 

Yes, after 8-10+ years of training we are entitled to healthy compensation....

 

But seriously, for those with non-doctor parents, how many of them have a COMBINED salary anywhere near 250K???

 

If you know how to manage your money properly and don't need a Jay Leno car collection, then that kind of money can get you the nice car, nice house, etc etc etc....

 

You may have to settle for a BMW instead of a Bentley. Life is tough.

[justletmein]

On my FM rotation, first family doc saw 40-50 patients a day, 8:30 - 4:30 days except on friday when she was 9 - 1.

 

Just don't be lazy. I've just learned that how much you make is much more a function of how you tailor your practice and how hard you work than anything.

 

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with being lazy.... and proves my point.

 

Seeing 50 patients in 8 hours is efficient. Absolutely.

But what kind of care are you providing?

Seeing 50-70 patients a day is easy in ortho clinics, ENT clinics etc. where the patients are coming with one problem.

 

I'm sure moo and others will disagree with me, but trying to maintain this type of schedule in family practice means you are probably not evaluating/treating your patients adequately.

[moo]

I know, but I just find it funny (and sad) that once people get into med school they lose all sense of what a good salary is....

 

Yes, after 8-10+ years of training we are entitled to healthy compensation....

 

But seriously, for those with non-doctor parents, how many of them have a COMBINED salary anywhere near 250K???

 

If you know how to manage your money properly and don't need a Jay Leno car collection, then that kind of money can get you the nice car, nice house, etc etc etc....

 

You may have to settle for a BMW instead of a Bentley. Life is tough.

 

Thank you. Agree completely. Money is good, but med students are too fixated on the "average yearly salary" for each individual specialty. I see people struggling on 15 bucks an hour in Vancouver and they work twice as hard as I do. Like I said, my cousin brags to me that he makes just over 100K and he and his wife (who also has a "decent" salary of 80K) just bought a 1.4 million dollar home. Yes, my family is like that (where money is king). I've also had lawyer friends tell me that doctors make not more than 120K a year. I just smile and nod.

 

Just be happy you will all be financially secure. I consider it a good thing that the general public does not know really how much doctors (even GPs) can make (or vastly underestimate). People can get jealous quickly.