The professional-class bubble is bursting

[rogerroger]

Just to mix up the waters on here...

 

I'm sure that many premeds and maybe even some of my med student colleagues will have thoughts on this recent globe and mail article...

 

 

 

The professional-class bubble is bursting

 

 

Thoughts?

[pheochromocytoma]

a little fantastical and over the top. I'd like to know where they got their stats for U of T gen surg graduates finding work. Interesting nonetheless, thanks for posting

[future_doc]

For law it is definitely true. Someone I know well, had over 40 interviews for articling positions, ended up with one offer that she refused and she has since obtained two other law degrees, incurred substantial student loans and has interned around the world. She expects it to take 2 years to land a position she will be happy with and meanwhile she is joining other Bars and may take another law degree. 2008 changed things and it has not come back. I know brilliant new young lawyers who are either unemployed or doing work they don't like and for little money.

 

For us future doctors, things are becoming difficult and that is why I will be writing the USMLE so I can keep all options open. Fortunately, I will be in my chosen profession and am prepared to ride out any storms on the horizon.

[medigeek]

Too much exaggeration. Doesn't a grad degree only help with UofT? In the US grad degrees dont even help at all (maybe a tiny bonus). And most doctors arent "well into their 30s" as the article says. The average age for starting medicine is 23 (offset by the number of people in their late 20s and early/mid 30s) so the ideal age is more like 22. Mathematically the average student will not be well into their 30s unless they want to become a pediatric neurosurgeron or something. Most will be 28-32 by the time they're done.

 

And is there any official stats on 15% of general surgeons finding work?

 

Overall I don't know what the point of the article is. The economy sucks, and so does every single field. If people cant get into a path with a half-decent job market and be good enough to get the job, then just go do something for a 30k/year income.

[lostintime]

I think accounting has better bang for your buck than law or medicine. You just do those licensing type exams for CA (which are hard no doubt), +/- Masters and pretty solid jobs out there. Comp Sci/engineering is pretty solid bang for your buck, generally don't need a Masters.

 

Law isn't too bad. The hardest part of medicine is the residency that's pretty unique to it. For every other professional school, you finish the professional school and you are done.

[future_doc]

Bang for the Buck: TAX either in law or as C.A.

[medigeek]

I think accounting has better bang for your buck than law or medicine. You just do those licensing type exams for CA (which are hard no doubt), +/- Masters and pretty solid jobs out there. Comp Sci/engineering is pretty solid bang for your buck, generally don't need a Masters.

 

Law isn't too bad. The hardest part of medicine is the residency that's pretty unique to it. For every other professional school, you finish the professional school and you are done.

 

Are you sure the job market is that great? What about technology causing a decrease in the demand for the jobs?

 

Engineering doesn't have a good market/good pay unless you're in alberta. A lot of engineers will be happy to start with 45k in toronto/gta. I've heard the same for comp sci.

 

Of course you can look at the top 10% which get high paying jobs to start, but there's more people doing that in medicine/law than pretty much any career path.

[A-Stark]

If any of you are familiar with Margaret Wente, this is just yet another one of her poorly-researched columns on some "controversial" or "hot button" issue where she gets to air some sort of contrarian or "hard-nosed realist" viewpoint.

 

I really wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

[Robin Hood]

No job will make me more happy than medicine (not even dentistry, optometry, and other healthcare professions), and I'm already aiming on FM, also Montreal is not the only in North America.

[lostintime]

Are you sure the job market is that great? What about technology causing a decrease in the demand for the jobs?

 

Engineering doesn't have a good market/good pay unless you're in alberta. A lot of engineers will be happy to start with 45k in toronto/gta. I've heard the same for comp sci.

 

Of course you can look at the top 10% which get high paying jobs to start, but there's more people doing that in medicine/law than pretty much any career path.

 

Well I said bang for your buck right, not if you want to be super super rich. You do a LOT less schooling (no med school no residency) for comp sci stuff, and I know lots of people who all have jobs. 45k is not bad, and you can increase up to 80k within a few years (depending on various factors). Accounting, with CA, can start off with like 60k and go up to 100k if you are diligent. Sure, there's lots of returns for med and law, and likely non-monetary ones that are the main reasons why most people stay in this profession, but just comparatively speaking.

[NLengr]

Margaret Wente is a hack. Her only skill is making outrageous unsubstantiated claims and prompting angry responses. She's basically a professional newspaper troll.

 

Even if the 15% of U of T Gen Surg graduates working post residency is true, it's not for lack of jobs. There are gen surg jobs in the community outside of the golden triangle. I suspect a huge portion of those moving on to fellowships are trying to return to the Toronto area or other major academic centers.

[Robin Hood]

What she says may be BS, but that doesn't mean that the future is no longer rosy for med students.

[NLengr]

What she says may be BS, but that doesn't mean that the future is no longer rosy for med students.

 

Its no longer a situation of get into medicine, pick any residency and get multiple job offers at the end. Many people I know who are having some problems finding jobs are limiting themselves to certain areas of the country (aka Ontario).

 

HOWEVER, that being said, if you are a little smart about picking your residency and willing to move, you will more than likely land a well paying job somewhere in the country. The key is flexibility. Unfortunately, many people don't seem to have it and therefore have difficulty with finding work.

 

We do need to re-structure the spot distributions for residency to make sure that we are producing enough doctors for fields with shortages and not over producing saturated fields. And we could also probably stand for a bit of a cut to med school admissions at this point. Overall, the medical profession needs to sit down and have a good HR planning session.

[medigeek]

Well I said bang for your buck right, not if you want to be super super rich. You do a LOT less schooling (no med school no residency) for comp sci stuff, and I know lots of people who all have jobs. 45k is not bad, and you can increase up to 80k within a few years (depending on various factors). Accounting, with CA, can start off with like 60k and go up to 100k if you are diligent. Sure, there's lots of returns for med and law, and likely non-monetary ones that are the main reasons why most people stay in this profession, but just comparatively speaking.

 

I know so many people making 40-50k and others making the same but living with a gf who makes the same money, and all of them constantly talk about how they need more money cause they cant do anything they want.

The money you get paid for those jobs in toronto/gta wont meet the demands of living in this economy (unless you're at the top).

[aaronjw]

]No job will make me more happy than medicine[/b] (not even dentistry' date=' optometry, and other healthcare professions), and I'm already aiming on FM, also Montreal is not the only in North America.[/quote']

 

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

Really find funny when people with no life work experience beyond say Mc****s, Tmmies or retail work can say that medicine or any other career is the only only that will make them happy. Delusional at best

[medigeek]

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

Really find funny when people with no life work experience beyond say Mc****s, Tmmies or retail work can say that medicine or any other career is the only only that will make them happy. Delusional at best

 

not really... if you dont like the eyes how can you be a good opto? if you dont like teeth how can you be a good dentist? dont like doing endless hours of math and physics, good luck doing engineering. you dont need to work a job to know you wont like it.

[future_doc]

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

Really find funny when people with no life work experience beyond say Mc****s, Tmmies or retail work can say that medicine or any other career is the only only that will make them happy. Delusional at best

 

If your delusional comment has any validity, it applies equally to those who have work experience unrelated to med. Let's not insult the premed membership. Our community of premeds are seeking to find their path to med and those who don't make it will find another career choice.

[aaronjw]

If your delusional comment has any validity, it applies equally to those who have work experience unrelated to med.

 

I won't argue with that but I am not the person saying medicine is the ONLY career that will make my happy. I am not saying medicine is the only job that will make me happy whereas some premeds do. Big difference.

[aaronjw]

not really... if you dont like the eyes how can you be a good opto? if you dont like teeth how can you be a good dentist? dont like doing endless hours of math and physics, good luck doing engineering. you dont need to work a job to know you wont like it.

 

Actually yes you do because most jobs are about applied learning. I thought biology was boring, I find it fascinating. Back in the day, I thought economics was useless but learned to love it because its wide ranging application to real world. I hated statistics but build a early career/business and reputation in an industry on statistical and analytical modeling.

 

People change what they hate all the time once they gain experience with something outside of the theoretical world and into an applied setting.

[aaronjw]

Margaret Wente is a hack. Her only skill is making outrageous unsubstantiated claims and prompting angry responses. She's basically a professional newspaper troll.

 

 

absolute truth

[iwishiwasa]

I know so many people making 40-50k and others making the same but living with a gf who makes the same money, and all of them constantly talk about how they need more money cause they cant do anything they want.

The money you get paid for those jobs in toronto/gta wont meet the demands of living in this economy (unless you're at the top).

 

A couple with joint income of 80-100K can't do anything they want? Boo ****ing hoo...Oh no, they will have to settle for a Honda rather than a Mercedes..please..

 

There's entire families getting by with 40k and doing fine for themselves. The sense of entitlement among some people is ridiculous.

[future_doc]

I won't argue with that but I am not the person saying medicine is the ONLY career that will make my happy. I am not saying medicine is the only job that will make me happy whereas some premeds do. Big difference.

 

Fair enough. My only point is that our membership is trying to find their way as we try to be supportive. Realistically, everybody needs at least a Plan B.

[aaronjw]

A couple with joint income of 80-100K can't do anything they want? Boo ****ing hoo...Oh no, they will have to settle for a Honda rather than a Mercedes..please..

 

There's entire families getting by with 40k and doing fine for themselves. The sense of entitlement among some people is ridiculous.

 

I won't disagree with your sentiment but these people (for the bolded part) aren't doing it in Toronto.

 

That said, if people want to make more money then they should go to where they can find a job that will pay them more. We don't owe people in Toronto a higher income just because they want to live in Toronto.

[medigeek]

Actually yes you do because most jobs are about applied learning. I thought biology was boring, I find it fascinating. Back in the day, I thought economics was useless but learned to love it because its wide ranging application to real world. I hated statistics but build a early career/business and reputation in an industry on statistical and analytical modeling.

 

People change what they hate all the time once they gain experience with something outside of the theoretical world and into an applied setting.

 

Those are general subjects. If someone is exposed to a certain career/and researches it and "hates it" then you can bet that more than likely they wouldnt ever like that job a lot.

[Robin Hood]

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

 

Really find funny when people with no life work experience beyond say Mc****s, Tmmies or retail work can say that medicine or any other career is the only only that will make them happy. Delusional at best

 

I said, medicine is the job that will make me the most happy, there are other jobs that will make me happy, but none can make me more happy then med. Believe me, I have thought on many jobs but medicine is the most appealing.