GPs have super low income

[Wachaa]

And how many patients do the Specialists have to see to make that same amount?

[medigeek]

And how many patients do the Specialists have to see to make that same amount?

 

Who cares? You won't even find a job in most specialties nowadays, let alone make anywhere near 300-400k...

[rmorelan]

And how many patients do the Specialists have to see to make that same amount?

 

That completely depends as well on the specialist. Some of those visits can take a lot longer, some are shorter, some involve procedures etc, etc. It is a real grab bag of stuff

[rmorelan]

Who cares? You won't even find a job in most specialties nowadays, let alone make anywhere near 300-400k...

 

well I won't say most (unless you are very fixed on location for some reason) but some areas are tightening up for sure

[medigeek]

well I won't say most (unless you are very fixed on location for some reason) but some areas are tightening up for sure

 

Well is there even any demand for subspecialties outside of major cities? You need a certain population to support subspecialties.

Same for any subspecialized surgeon...

 

I guess the more 'general" specialties have a flexible geographic job market, but even then... it sucks to be living away from family/friends in a permenant fashion.

[rmorelan]

Well is there even any demand for subspecialties outside of major cities? You need a certain population to support subspecialties.

Same for any subspecialized surgeon...

 

I guess the more 'general" specialties have a flexible geographic job market, but even then... it sucks to be living away from family/friends in a permenant fashion.

 

Yeah that is the one big thing with medicine now - where you will live in the end has really become a more open question. I suppose it is like that for most highly specialized jobs but as our numbers have been upped it really is coming in to focus for medicine overall.

[jerkoutnow2]

I am amazed when people think radiologists have no stress.. maybe you should spend a day in a radiology department to get a better sense. And love it even more when people think they do not have responsibilities. Maybe You should look into lawsuits against radiologist.. As physician, we should stop talking about other specialties we are not trained in... We are the big source of what is happening in the health care system with all the cuts.. STOP counting other physicians salary for god sake and do something more productive....

 

i never said no stress loll... but compare the work they do and the lifestyle (hours) to some of the surgeons, busy IM subspecialties etc.

 

yeah radiology residents read a LOTT of textbooks which i fully respect but like i said, relative is the key word.

 

you seem to have responded very defensively to my comments and rather overly sensitive too

[futureGP]

i heard a lot of anesthesia residents end up having to do fellowships to work in big cities

 

and as interesting anesthesia is, although it is only an extra year or two, it still seems like if people want to work in big cities with the flexibility to choose a location with a relatively short training, FM is the way to go.

 

 

 

oh and a comment on brooksbane's posts, I wonder if brooksbane works in a specialty where he gets a lot of FM referrals, which is why he can indicate the inadequacy of their training (i'm actually curious now, as much as I'm curious about muse's level of training)

[Madz25]

best $$$/hr is anes/radiology

 

very little overhead, good pay, relatively little stress (Since you have less responsibilities generally)

 

FP is good but can be stressful, and i would pick FP just to get out early since it's only 2-years

 

And you are in-the-know about radiologists' responsibility, how???

 

I find it highly disrespectful that people seem to have this "insight" into how other specialties work without ever actually doing their work. I have done call for every other specialty and know how "bad" it is, but how many of you have done radiology call? Been there, by yourself making the call? Someone had their entire colon resected at 3am because of what I said. If I had missed that finding and the patient wouldn't have been taken to the OR, likely the patient would've died. That's no responsibility right? Someone dying because I missed something. Someone sent home from the emergency department because I called an abnormal scan normal. Yeah, zero responsibility.

 

Everyone learns the basic skills as to how to keep a patient alive - ABCs, fluid resuscitation, lasix if fluid overloaded etc etc. Then you have time to mentally masturbate as to the diagnosis and best course of action. I'm sorry but when I'm on call and have to go through ~50+ CTs on my own, I don't have that luxury. When my pager is going off and my phone is ringing and a clinical team is breathing down my neck because they have to know the results of their non-urgent CT chest RIGHT NOW so they can go and discuss the finer points of interstitial lung disease - that's not stress free.

 

And in what other specialty are people telling you how to do your job? Would you ever go up to a surgeon and say "I'd like a Hartman's procedure on Mr. Smith" - I'm gonna guess HELL NO unless you want to be b*tch slapped. Do you know how often people tell me exactly what I should do without even consulting me and appreciating that I may, by some small miracle, have more insight into how radiology works than them? Not just what body part to scan, but how exactly to do that scan. If I happen to know an alternate form of imaging that would better answer their question, nobody wants to hear it. They want what they want because they want it. The end. No discussion. I'm lucky if I'm provided with any history at all. You would never ever consult any service without giving a history. Yet with radiology I get "rule out pathology". Well, you ordered an abdominal scan so I'm assuming there must be abdominal pain somewhere.

 

And to radiologists earning more because technology has gotten faster, which makes their job easier - absolute bull. Back in the day a CT head took 20 minutes and spit out 8 blurry images on film. Now that same scan takes a few seconds and with reformats, you have 500+ images to look at. A trauma scan consists of 4000-5000 images. How has that made my life any easier? As well, where I work - you only get reimbursed for one body part. If someone has a fall and the clinician would like a CT head and C-spine - radiology only gets reimbursed for the head OR the c-spine, not both. Would any of you do work for free? Me thinks no.

 

I'll stop ranting now. For those of you who took the time to read it - thanks. For those that think they know how everything works - newsflash. You don't. Next time, think about how much you rely on radiology to help your patients and give the specialty the respect it deserves.

 

For those of you thinking about going into radiology because it's a "cushy" lifestyle. Think again. Maybe it was 20 years ago but not anymore. With people wanting immediate answers, it is becoming a 24/7 specialty.

[Jochi1543]

I'm lucky if I'm provided with any history at all. You would never ever consult any service without giving a history. Yet with radiology I get "rule out pathology". Well, you ordered an abdominal scan so I'm assuming there must be abdominal pain somewhere.

 

We should work together, I love to write a good story on my rads reqs....

[youngdad]

And you are in-the-know about radiologists' responsibility, how???

 

I find it highly disrespectful that people seem to have this "insight" into how other specialties work without ever actually doing their work. I have done call for every other specialty and know how "bad" it is, but how many of you have done radiology call? Been there, by yourself making the call? Someone had their entire colon resected at 3am because of what I said. If I had missed that finding and the patient wouldn't have been taken to the OR, likely the patient would've died. That's no responsibility right? Someone dying because I missed something. Someone sent home from the emergency department because I called an abnormal scan normal. Yeah, zero responsibility.

 

Everyone learns the basic skills as to how to keep a patient alive - ABCs, fluid resuscitation, lasix if fluid overloaded etc etc. Then you have time to mentally masturbate as to the diagnosis and best course of action. I'm sorry but when I'm on call and have to go through ~50+ CTs on my own, I don't have that luxury. When my pager is going off and my phone is ringing and a clinical team is breathing down my neck because they have to know the results of their non-urgent CT chest RIGHT NOW so they can go and discuss the finer points of interstitial lung disease - that's not stress free.

 

And in what other specialty are people telling you how to do your job? Would you ever go up to a surgeon and say "I'd like a Hartman's procedure on Mr. Smith" - I'm gonna guess HELL NO unless you want to be b*tch slapped. Do you know how often people tell me exactly what I should do without even consulting me and appreciating that I may, by some small miracle, have more insight into how radiology works than them? Not just what body part to scan, but how exactly to do that scan. If I happen to know an alternate form of imaging that would better answer their question, nobody wants to hear it. They want what they want because they want it. The end. No discussion. I'm lucky if I'm provided with any history at all. You would never ever consult any service without giving a history. Yet with radiology I get "rule out pathology". Well, you ordered an abdominal scan so I'm assuming there must be abdominal pain somewhere.

 

And to radiologists earning more because technology has gotten faster, which makes their job easier - absolute bull. Back in the day a CT head took 20 minutes and spit out 8 blurry images on film. Now that same scan takes a few seconds and with reformats, you have 500+ images to look at. A trauma scan consists of 4000-5000 images. How has that made my life any easier? As well, where I work - you only get reimbursed for one body part. If someone has a fall and the clinician would like a CT head and C-spine - radiology only gets reimbursed for the head OR the c-spine, not both. Would any of you do work for free? Me thinks no.

 

I'll stop ranting now. For those of you who took the time to read it - thanks. For those that think they know how everything works - newsflash. You don't. Next time, think about how much you rely on radiology to help your patients and give the specialty the respect it deserves.

 

For those of you thinking about going into radiology because it's a "cushy" lifestyle. Think again. Maybe it was 20 years ago but not anymore. With people wanting immediate answers, it is becoming a 24/7 specialty.

 

Yep. I agree. It only took me a few weeks of radiology electives to appreciate just how much responsibility it is. I bet it is crushing at times. My hat goes off to the radiologist. Without them so many aspects of patient care would just grind to screeching halt. May I never take the rads for granted wherever I work.

 

I think the "golden age" for physicians is gone across the board. Certainly radiology is no longer "cushy" (if it ever was.) Medicine isn't the old boys at the country club getting wealthy for 9-5 work anymore. That is a good thing. I don't know what a "lifestyle" specialty is, unless you work part-time.

 

We could all work together instead of squabbling about pay and work. We will all be paid well for what we do. Physicians united would get a lot more good policy in place to help the health care landscape of this country than physicians divided.

 

I am glad I will be an FP. I should be paid less than any surgeon, radiologist, cardiologist, gasser, ER doc, or other hospital specialist that works full time. I could not do what they do, and I don't feel entitled to their fee schedule.

[Byrne]

We should work together, I love to write a good story on my rads reqs....

 

At my institution, I have noticed a clinician put quite a bit into a requisition, only to have a unit clerk "summarize it" when putting the req through the system. Not sure if this was an isolated incident or if it occurs regularly for some technical reason or otherwise.

[leviathan]

For those of you thinking about going into radiology because it's a "cushy" lifestyle. Think again. Maybe it was 20 years ago but not anymore. With people wanting immediate answers, it is becoming a 24/7 specialty.

LOL great post madz.

[rmorelan]

At my institution, I have noticed a clinician put quite a bit into a requisition, only to have a unit clerk "summarize it" when putting the req through the system. Not sure if this was an isolated incident or if it occurs regularly for some technical reason or otherwise.

 

I hate that. On rads electives my job often was (to the surprise of the referring doc) to actually get clinical information for the scan.

[rmorelan]

And you are in-the-know about radiologists' responsibility, how???

 

I find it highly disrespectful that people seem to have this "insight" into how other specialties work without ever actually doing their work. I have done call for every other specialty and know how "bad" it is, but how many of you have done radiology call? Been there, by yourself making the call? Someone had their entire colon resected at 3am because of what I said. If I had missed that finding and the patient wouldn't have been taken to the OR, likely the patient would've died. That's no responsibility right? Someone dying because I missed something. Someone sent home from the emergency department because I called an abnormal scan normal. Yeah, zero responsibility.

 

Everyone learns the basic skills as to how to keep a patient alive - ABCs, fluid resuscitation, lasix if fluid overloaded etc etc. Then you have time to mentally masturbate as to the diagnosis and best course of action. I'm sorry but when I'm on call and have to go through ~50+ CTs on my own, I don't have that luxury. When my pager is going off and my phone is ringing and a clinical team is breathing down my neck because they have to know the results of their non-urgent CT chest RIGHT NOW so they can go and discuss the finer points of interstitial lung disease - that's not stress free.

 

And in what other specialty are people telling you how to do your job? Would you ever go up to a surgeon and say "I'd like a Hartman's procedure on Mr. Smith" - I'm gonna guess HELL NO unless you want to be b*tch slapped. Do you know how often people tell me exactly what I should do without even consulting me and appreciating that I may, by some small miracle, have more insight into how radiology works than them? Not just what body part to scan, but how exactly to do that scan. If I happen to know an alternate form of imaging that would better answer their question, nobody wants to hear it. They want what they want because they want it. The end. No discussion. I'm lucky if I'm provided with any history at all. You would never ever consult any service without giving a history. Yet with radiology I get "rule out pathology". Well, you ordered an abdominal scan so I'm assuming there must be abdominal pain somewhere.

 

And to radiologists earning more because technology has gotten faster, which makes their job easier - absolute bull. Back in the day a CT head took 20 minutes and spit out 8 blurry images on film. Now that same scan takes a few seconds and with reformats, you have 500+ images to look at. A trauma scan consists of 4000-5000 images. How has that made my life any easier? As well, where I work - you only get reimbursed for one body part. If someone has a fall and the clinician would like a CT head and C-spine - radiology only gets reimbursed for the head OR the c-spine, not both. Would any of you do work for free? Me thinks no.

 

I'll stop ranting now. For those of you who took the time to read it - thanks. For those that think they know how everything works - newsflash. You don't. Next time, think about how much you rely on radiology to help your patients and give the specialty the respect it deserves.

 

For those of you thinking about going into radiology because it's a "cushy" lifestyle. Think again. Maybe it was 20 years ago but not anymore. With people wanting immediate answers, it is becoming a 24/7 specialty.

 

well...this is a great summary This is exactly how I have come to see the world of radiology.

[Economist]

Time for me to hover into this thread.

 

Just did my 2012 taxes few days ago

 

4 years into practice (Greater Vancouver Area, Mixed hospital/clinic practice. No call. No OB. No ER.)

 

Avg hours/week of work: 44 (including paperwork & 40-min lunch break, excluding commute)

# weeks vacation/year: 5

Net practice income (Post-clinic-overhead/split, Pre-tax): ~300k

 

Looking forward to BC's new complex-disease fee codes for pregnant/cancer/frail patients, and new telephone-visit fees ($15/call) starting April 2013.

 

Planning to cut hours in 2013, down to ~40hrs/week to have better lifestyle..

 

Is this normal for most of the GP's in Vancouver?

In other words, is this GP just really efficient compared to an average GP or can an average GP expect this kind of remuneration?

[da_birdie]

Is this normal for most of the GP's in Vancouver?

In other words, is this GP just really efficient compared to an average GP or can an average GP expect this kind of remuneration?

 

Hey Economist, I'd say I'm at the 70%-tile in the "efficiency spectrum" of Vancouver GPs.

 

During my clinic days, I book 6 patients/hour with 40min lunch break, arriving at clinic by 9AM, leaving by 5PM with most paperwork dealt with.

 

There are GPs out there seeing 50 pts in 5 hours, those would be categorized as "high efficiency".

 

For Vancouver GPs who work as hospitalists or work in community clinics (ie non-FFS), their hourly salary is ~115-125, equivalent to ~230k annual income (no overhead, pre-tax) (not counting the on-call fees)

[ratatat]

If so, they are also accepting the liability that comes with letting residents do cases unsupervised. If the resident screws it up, the attending is the target of the lawyers.

 

In my experience, at least at my residency school, the general surgeons are up all night doing emergency resections for anything abdominal. They on average are paid less than,say, radiologists, who if on call are taking it remotely from home. It's easy to see which one of these is the better deal.

 

So for medical students confused about career choices, know that the vast majority of general surgeons work their tails off for the rest of their lives. Same goes for neurosurg, obgyn, ortho, etc.

 

However, when it comes to the non-surgical surgical specialties like ophthalmology and..well, ophthalmology, the money is crazy awesome, and call is manageable to nonexistent. This is why I tell the medical students that rotate through my service to check out ophthalmology, because its pretty awesome. Most of the hidden stuff is.

 

What's your specialty?

[hexonu]

I am curious as to why opthamology is so well paid? Is it well paid for the private side of things (LASIK etc) or does a hospital funded optha get really well paid too and if yes what is it that they do? Thanks.

 

I worked for two ophthalmologists (both brothers) during my undergrad and they made 4M/year combined. They had an inpatient clinic where they'd see patients 3 days a week and the other days were spent at the hospital where they'd do surgeries. I think they made a butt load of money from elective things like toric lenses that the government did'nt cover ($900/eye, can't remember?)

[futureGP]

I worked for two ophthalmologists (both brothers) during my undergrad and they made 4M/year combined. They had an inpatient clinic where they'd see patients 3 days a week and the other days were spent at the hospital where they'd do surgeries. I think they made a butt load of money from elective things like toric lenses that the government did'nt cover ($900/eye, can't remember?)

 

even if they don't do non-insured stuff, cataracts pay pretty well. Each surgery lasts 15-30mins and you have so many people helping you to make the process of bringing patients in/out efficient (nurses in the OR, in the pre-op/post-op stations, anesthesia team helping prep asap).

 

patients in/out pretty quick