Another Non-Trad. Is this worth it?

[ExtendedReign]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been following these forums closely recently and have considered medicine in my first year of university before deciding on doing law. Now I'm in my third year of law and about ready to graduate. I have an articling position lined up and am about to article after this year to get called to the bar. I went to law school under very false assumptions: 1. Some connection to justice and fairness, 2. job security, 3. being an in-demand professional. This was all despite the fact that my marks were higher in science and that I was obsessed about medicine since my childhood.

 

As you might have already guessed, I hated law school and did poorly (grade wise). And now I'm faced with the very difficult decision to do something else entirely. So my options are: work as a lawyer (salary could range between 200 - 600k depending on how many clients I can get), OR pursue medicine - and first take a few years of undergrad to fix my grades.

 

 

I want to do medicine for several reasons, and please criticize any delusion you may notice:

1. Do what I believe I was supposed to do - be in a career that fits my skills and passions, and that's medicine. I want to make a difference. I genuinely want to use my intellectual potential and skills to make peoples' lives better - and to relieve pain if I could.

 

2. The freedom to focus entirely on "clients" (patients) and not have to worry about billable hours or trying to milk your client who may be at his most vulnerable state to get enough cash to drive a Porsche or buy an unnecessarily expensive suit (I hate wearing suits, btw). My biggest skills that I've discovered through my work are: a) analytical skills, and empathy. I have an extremely easy time making clients understand that I completely get their grief. This helped me a lot. I absolutely despite the fact that I have to bill them for that time afterwards.

 

3. Job security, and freedom to be your own principal and operate within your limits. Medicine is also equal to substantial mobility.

 

I am not concerned with prestige or anything of that sort. In fact, I get a lot of prestige by being a law student - and whenever I am complimented on my "achievement" I smile and think to myself about how much my idea of "achievement" differs from others'.

 

My thinking also is to get my license to practice and try to make some money on the side while I pursue medicine, if I'm going to be forfeiting close to a decade of good income to do this. I don't know how realistic that is, and I want to know what path I should take and what I should do. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir - and I know that many of you succeeded in changing career paths and I want to learn from your experience.

 

Academic credentials so far: My OMSAS gpa is 3.13 (thanks to law) and I took the MCAT once and only did VR and got an 11 without preparing for it.

 

Also, for the record, I'm not the same law grad as the colleague on this forum who is considering bringing an action against ontario med schools. I do, however, face an enormous struggle because of my average law grades - but I realize the average grades were due to my absolute hate for what I was studying and the lack of capacity for cognitive dissonance in this particular regard.

 

Thank you, again - and I sincerely look forward to hearing from you all.

[ExtendedReign]

Sorry for the confusion. I'm in my last year of law school (JD)

[ExtendedReign]

Law School grades count, I checked with some of the med schools and they do care and include your law school grades in the GPA calculation. They're letter grades and you get a GPA count for each class.

[Drogba]

Whether or not it's worth it is a question that only you can really answer. You said you asked some med schools if law grades count, I would ask every med school in Canada what their policy is with regards to this in order to better plan what your next move would be.

[Fresh fry]

It has been discussed in other threads, law grades (JD) count as UG grades at all schools in Canada.

 

Lots of medicine is all about billable hours and spending as little time with patients as possible. There is also loads of shady stuff going down on a daily basis. I would at least give your current profession a try before making any decisions; who know you might like it.

[nauru]

So my options are: work as a lawyer (salary could range between 200 - 600k depending on how many clients I can get)

 

I lol'd.

 

:D

[ExtendedReign]

I lol'd.

 

:D

 

I don't really understand what's so funny about that. Loss of potential income is a very big factor to consider. In any case, thanks for your thorough and constructive comment.

[jojoluvsu2]

My suggestion would be to work for a year and see how things pan out in law. Maybe you'll enjoy it more than you thought, maybe it'll really light a fire under your tail to pursue medicine even harder. That year will also give you the opportunity to do some volunteer work to improve your application.

 

Of course, if money isn't an issue, you could always throw your hat into the ring for the next admission cycle and see what happens. That'll give you an idea of where you stand competition-wise. If you don't get any interviews you know you have some work to do to be competitive.

[Fresh fry]

I don't really understand what's so funny about that. Loss of potential income is a very big factor to consider. In any case, thanks for your thorough and constructive comment.

 

I think he laughed because it might take you a little longer to start making that kind of money than you think. You are right about the income thing, especially if you have debts from UG and JD. med will probably be another 100-200gs on top of that so you may want to work for a bit just to get it paid off. That will give you more options for when you are finished med too like starting apractice.

[A-Stark]

Your interest in medicine certainly seems genuine but it will be a very difficult (if not impossible) path to take with that kind of GPA. There's never any harm in applying. I just wouldn't be very optimistic.

 

What was this about a law student wanting to bring "action" against Ontario med schools?

[nauru]

I think he laughed because it might take you a little longer to start making that kind of money than you think.

Not to mention the fact that most partners don't make 200k, let alone newbie law school graduates. Speaking of which, 60 seconds on google reveals that median salary for a first year associate in Canada is apparently $72,500. (sample size could be larger; if anyone can provide better data, please do)

 

The proportion of Canadian law firm partners who make less than 200k is, according to the above, around 56%. So even if a newbie law school graduate eventually makes it to partner (probability of ever accomplishing this, and length of time required are both debatable), chances are compensation will not be "200 - 600k".

 

Ergo, I lol'd.

 

EDIT: It seems the median for associates with from 8+ years experience to retirement (250k) is higher than the median for partners.

[Satsuma]

The grass is always greener!

 

Before making your decision about whether medicine is truly the way to go, I would suggest doing some kind of shadowing and at least openly speaking to people about what it is like in medicine. It can sometimes feel like an assembly line, trying to get through as many patients as possible as quickly as possible because there is just so much to do. So you might find that human connection you are looking for a little harder then you thought it might be.

 

Only you know how you feel and can make the decision about which path to go down. But before you decide, be as sure as you can, that medicine will provide what you think you are missing from law.

 

I have met 1 person who did law and then went to med school. That person did not intend on practicing medicine in the end and was going back to law. Albeit with a medical spin on things at that point. And at least that person realized it before residency.

 

As you approach the end of your current degree, just be sure it is law you don't like and not just that you are tired and need to start working. Medicine is a long haul, especially, if in the end, you realize work is just work.

[Adversary]

Yeah, my friends in law don't make over 200k. They are in the 100-something thousand range, but that's only after working a number of years. In the beginning, it's definitely below 100k and you work more than 40-hours a week.

 

Not to mention the fact that most partners don't make 200k, let alone newbie law school graduates. Speaking of which, 60 seconds on google reveals that median salary for a first year associate in Canada is apparently $72,500. (sample size could be larger; if anyone can provide better data, please do)

 

The proportion of Canadian law firm partners who make less than 200k is, according to the above, around 56%. So even if a newbie law school graduate eventually makes it to partner (probability of ever accomplishing this, and length of time required are both debatable), chances are compensation will not be "200 - 600k".

 

Ergo, I lol'd.

 

EDIT: It seems the median for associates with from 8+ years experience to retirement (250k) is higher than the median for partners.

[ExtendedReign]

Not to mention the fact that most partners don't make 200k, let alone newbie law school graduates. Speaking of which, 60 seconds on google reveals that median salary for a first year associate in Canada is apparently $72,500. (sample size could be larger; if anyone can provide better data, please do)

 

The proportion of Canadian law firm partners who make less than 200k is, according to the above, around 56%. So even if a newbie law school graduate eventually makes it to partner (probability of ever accomplishing this, and length of time required are both debatable), chances are compensation will not be "200 - 600k".

 

Ergo, I lol'd.

 

EDIT: It seems the median for associates with from 8+ years experience to retirement (250k) is higher than the median for partners.

 

First of all, as with most information re: true earnings online, the "averages" hide several different factors and the information is usually unreliable. Downtown Toronto salaries will range from 75 - 100k for a first year associate, and unless you have a position outside of Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver.

 

Here's a link to give you an idea of partner income, this guy was a partner with a Toronto firm that isn't even included in the "Sister 7". His yearly compensation for 2001 as an equity partner was 200 LLUs and 560,000 bonus. His compensation for that year alone was 1.1 million. This guy wasn't a senior partner or a a partner at a Sister 7 firm. In fact, it is not uncommon for partners in big firms in major cities to hit the 1 million mark. Some lawyers in Class Action practice exceed that, with the highest reported income in 2010 being over 4 million dollars. Here's the case that details the compensation package the partner received: http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii15661/2009canlii15661.html

 

In any case, from my experience, lawyers' income is underreported or diluted by lower paying areas. Senior Associates and Partners in Toronto can bill up to a 1000 dollars an hour, with 400 - 500 as the standard for a 5 year grad. Considering the fact that a partnership track is usually 7 - 10 years, and that there's a continuing increase in salary from year to year - 200 - 600k is a very fair approximation, at least for the time duration it would take for me to get into med, 4 years of med, and 4 - 5 years of a specialty. I also know the salaries some of my friends make, and two of them are in their 3rd year of practice making over 200k including their bonus. One other friend made 300k as a sole practitioner in Toronto as a 2nd year grad. It all depends on your location, partnership track, billable hours.

 

But I'm not posting on here to argue about lawyer income. My projection of lost income is from low end (which in fairness may be in 100s) to what I anticipate to be the high end given several years of practice. Income of a lawyer vs. a physician is not an issue for me, it's the loss of potential income - whatever that may be. Even at 100k a year for that entire duration, I'd be losing out on more than 800k during the time it takes me to complete a medical degree and specialization - and more than 1 million if I had to do 2 - 3 years of undergrad. So, nauru, I would really appreciate any advice you might have regarding my dilemma - but please refrain from making unnecessary comments and distracting from the main objective of my original post.

 

 

Satsuma, thank you for your comment. I come from a family of medical professionals so I've had a lot of exposure to the medical field. I went into law originally to try to do something different, and unfortunately had no idea what I was getting myself into. I don't anticipate a change of heart later on - but if I did medicine I wouldn't regret the education, even if I decided not to practice - but that's highly unlikely. I've already done over a year of legal work and I know for fact that I don't enjoy it. The chances of me regretting NOT pursuing this are significantly higher.

 

A-Stark, my thinking was to do a second degree for a couple of years then apply - I don't expect my current GPA to get me in anywhere, unless somehow my law grades were removed from the equation.

 

I'd appreciate any recommendations for a type of second degree, as well.

[nauru]

So basically you are countering the actual survey data I've provided, with... one referenced outlier anecdote and several unsubstantiated anecdotes, some of which are also obviously outliers. I'm happy to leave it at that, but just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

 

As for your dilemma, I'm sure from your family you are aware that medical school is actually two years of study, followed by two years of unpaid on-the-job training, which is then followed by what is essentially a paid apprenticeship, which, for roughly half of all medical school graduates, lasts two years (but can be longer if you like, as you know). It pays about as well as the median for new law graduates (more in Alberta, less in Quebec). So I would subtract that from the opportunity cost in your decision-making calculations.

 

What I'm saying is, I think you are drastically over-estimating the amount of money you would be missing out on if you choose to pursue medicine.

[souljaboy]

Doubt that it will be worth your time. You've already done UG and Law school, do you really want to spent another 10 years in school with no real income and even more debt? Unless you're already rich then it's probably not a good life choice. In those 10 years you'll probably be able to earn: ONE....MILLION....DOLLARS.

[ExtendedReign]

By "actual survey data" are you referring to a voluntary magazine survey with a sample size of 129 participants in one category and 44 in the other? You're right, my unsubstantiated "anecdotes" (including one in the form of a court decision - completely anecdotal) don't compare to the hard evidence in the form of a magazine survey that you've clearly put out there. Of course someone without any exposure to the legal profession would know more about how much lawyers make than a law student in their third year with substantial work experience, a signed contract outlining compensation and benefits for the articling term, and very close contacts in the legal profession. I apologize for not refuting your magazine survey data.

 

Here's a link for "actual" data from the reported income of 21,000 self-employed lawyers: http://www.quadcom.gc.ca/Media/Pdf/2011/opening_submission.pdf

 

Scroll to the last page to see income by percentile and by city. If that isn't enough to refute the magazine survey, you could supplement this data with information from job descriptions of firms in Toronto at http://www.nalpcanada.com.

 

Next time I come across a survey in a magazine, I'm going to take it very seriously - because someone out there could be using my answer to back up an irrelevant hostile post. And thanks for that added bit of info, didn't realize you meant "I think you are drastically over-estimating the amount of money you would be missing out on if you choose to pursue medicine." when you said "I lol'd".

[A-Stark]

Aaaaanyway... Concerning a second degree, it's a bit tricky to suggest an ideal type of program. What did you do for your first undergrad? I might suggest psych/neuroscience, which might complement your law background somewhat.

 

It's difficult for me to put myself in your position, as I can't imagine what kind of undergrad degree I'd do post-MD. Maybe chem/physics/history/French/German? haha

[aaronjw]

Law and business would compliment well but business degrees can be weird in terms how they grade you and the difficulty of the grading. It certainly was at Western!

[rmorelan]

Aaaaanyway... Concerning a second degree, it's a bit tricky to suggest an ideal type of program. What did you do for your first undergrad? I might suggest psych/neuroscience, which might complement your law background somewhat.

 

It's difficult for me to put myself in your position, as I can't imagine what kind of undergrad degree I'd do post-MD. Maybe chem/physics/history/French/German? haha

 

ha! I know I won't be stopping - learning is too interesting. I am hoping to start my masters of education sometime shortly. Sounds like fun!

[rmorelan]

Wait what?? MEd. now ???

 

major respect man, keep on learning!

 

A small but very present group of residents do that during their training. Getting a MEd, MPH etc can really help later on.

[schmitty]

What do you want to do with the MEd.? What's MPH? :confused:

 

Master of public health....http://www.dlsph.utoronto.ca/page/masters-degrees

[schmitty]

Thank you sir(?) or madam (?).

 

I suppose that would be a sir. Schmitty would also suffice

[rmorelan]

Master of public health....http://www.dlsph.utoronto.ca/page/masters-degrees

 

The best part is you often get support to go to some pretty exciting places to do these degrees if you want (you can take a year off during residency if you like to go do them).

[schmitty]

Define exciting places?

 

Jane and Finch in Toronto? That's 'exciting' :-P

 

I imagine there are lots of opportunities for international travel, especially as an MD pursuing an MHP. As just another graduate student? Not so much depending on your research, but many are course based.