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How much does a full-time ER physician make?


Arrowx7

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Hi there,

I was wondering how much ER physicians make. I did a bunch of searches, but most of what I found was outdated. The salaries on ICES shows up as 240k, which is second lowest to psychiatry. I wonder if this salary includes old physicians who do a few shifts?

Other searches show up as about $120/h..$150k? that's REALLY low.

However downtown Toronto one ER doc said it was about $180/h+30%FFS, which works out to ~340k. Everyone says you make more in community.

 

How much does a full-time ER doc (14-shifts/month 8hrs each) make? Have you guys asked your ER physicians?

 

thanks!

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Hi there,

I was wondering how much ER physicians make. I did a bunch of searches, but most of what I found was outdated. The salaries on ICES shows up as 240k, which is second lowest to psychiatry. I wonder if this salary includes old physicians who do a few shifts?

Other searches show up as about $120/h..$150k? that's REALLY low.

However downtown Toronto one ER doc said it was about $180/h+30%FFS, which works out to ~340k. Everyone says you make more in community.

 

How much does a full-time ER doc (14-shifts/month 8hrs each) make? Have you guys asked your ER physicians?

 

thanks!

 

More than 300k sounds much more accurate.

 

I was looking at CMA data a while ago and I remember the lowest paid was psych, at a Canadian mean of 212k. ER was well above this I remember.

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120-150/hr is indeed too low, that's what hospitalists (GPs covering wards during the day) make here. The figure I heard for ER is $180/hr+.

 

On my ER rotation, the docs billed per patient - I have no idea how much they bill per patient or what they averaged per shift, to be honest.

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I seem to remember an ER doc telling me ~3 years ago that he gets paid per hour (major academic tertiary care centre), and I think it was $225/hour. That would translate into about ~300-350k working full-time in the ER, depending on how many weeks of vacation you take.

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More than 300k sounds much more accurate.

 

I was looking at CMA data a while ago and I remember the lowest paid was psych, at a Canadian mean of 212k. ER was well above this I remember.

 

I thought it was around 250-300K or so?

 

They work about 18 days a month, rates vary of course but 175 -200 an hour seemed to be the range I hear a lot. That is with about 6 weeks vacation I might add(?)

 

Ha - it would be easier for them if they all did 6-2 each day for 40 hours a week, but ER doesn't work like that :)

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Like anything, it depends on how hard you work.

 

Overnights pay more than weekends, weekends pay more than week days.

Some places are FFS - so you will bill more the more pts you see.

Some places are an hourly rate + a percentage of billings.

Some places have a higher hourly rate for the people working a full line of shifts and are available to work all times, but a lower hourly rate for those working only a few shifts a month with less flexibility in scheduling etc.

 

You won't starve as an ER doc.

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When it's 4AM and your belly hurts so much that you need to go to the hospital, do you want me or one of my colleagues there to treat you?

 

ha - well that goes for any field. You want the surgeon ready to operated, the anaesthesia doc ready to put you under, the ICU ready post to care for you, the rads ready to look at the images....... :)

 

But emerg is strange with the way they handle the shifts. Doing what seems like pretty random shifts at all hours long term seems a bit draining to say the least.

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But emerg is strange with the way they handle the shifts. Doing what seems like pretty random shifts at all hours long term seems a bit draining to say the least.

 

At the community hospital where I did my ER rotation, they generally did a cycle where every day their shift would be 2 hours later or earlier than the shift they worked the day before. E.g. someone would work 7-4 on Monday, 10-6 on Tuesday, 12-8 on Wednesday, then take a day off, then do 2-10 pm Friday, and 4 pm - midnight Saturday...then eventually go backwards from late nights to day shifts. That seemed like it might a gentler way to deal with your circadian rhythm.

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At the community hospital where I did my ER rotation, they generally did a cycle where every day their shift would be 2 hours later or earlier than the shift they worked the day before. E.g. someone would work 7-4 on Monday, 10-6 on Tuesday, 12-8 on Wednesday, then take a day off, then do 2-10 pm Friday, and 4 pm - midnight Saturday...then eventually go backwards from late nights to day shifts. That seemed like it might a gentler way to deal with your circadian rhythm.

 

maybe :)

 

Still hard to schedule general life stuff around a rotating schedule but that sounds easier than some of the scenarios I have seen. No schedule is perfect - I have seen longer stretches of one shift type with 3 days off in between shift etc, random shifts it seems, and rarely permanently having some people do less popular slots constantly. A lot of variation!

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What's the job market like for ER physicians like right now? How difficult is it to match to ER?

 

I wouldn't say it is easy to match - the 5 year program is pretty competitive. Even the +1 variant is not a sure thing to get. Basically like a lot of things you have to work for it.

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maybe :)

 

Still hard to schedule general life stuff around a rotating schedule but that sounds easier than some of the scenarios I have seen. No schedule is perfect - I have seen longer stretches of one shift type with 3 days off in between shift etc, random shifts it seems, and rarely permanently having some people do less popular slots constantly. A lot of variation!

 

 

It is not for everyone. But if you are the right person this variation is the beauty. Stack the shifts take big blocks off every month. Work hard play hard. Night owl, take later shifts more often, sleep in almost everyday. Or do the opposite.

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I wouldn't say it is easy to match - the 5 year program is pretty competitive. Even the +1 variant is not a sure thing to get. Basically like a lot of things you have to work for it.

 

 

I don't know if 2013 stats are around, but in 2012 the 7 most competitive specialties in order were...

 

(seats filled/applicants)

 

1. Vascular Surgery

2. Plastic Surgery

3. Dermatology

4. Ophthalmology

5. Emergency Medicine (FRCPC)

6. ENT

7. Radiology

 

 

The CCFM entry was slightly more competitive than the FRCPC in 2012. I saw a trend graph for this a few months ago. If I recall correctly, since the mid 2000s the competitiveness for FRCPC has been pretty consistent. The CCFM steam has recently surpassed the FRCPC in competitiveness.

 

That said, I think it is very doable to pursue EM if you spend some time expressing interest.

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I don't know if 2013 stats are around, but in 2012 the 7 most competitive specialties in order were...

 

(seats filled/applicants)

 

1. Vascular Surgery

2. Plastic Surgery

3. Dermatology

4. Ophthalmology

5. Emergency Medicine (FRCPC)

6. ENT

7. Radiology

 

 

The CCFM entry was slightly more competitive than the FRCPC in 2012. I saw a trend graph for this a few months ago. If I recall correctly, since the mid 2000s the competitiveness for FRCPC has been pretty consistent. The CCFM steam has recently surpassed the FRCPC in competitiveness.

 

That said, I think it is very doable to pursue EM if you spend some time expressing interest.

 

I would say that there's a little more to "competitiveness" determined by number of applicants:spots available. Generally speaking ER gets more applicants who aren't as serious about 5 year emerg as surgical sub-specialties. In other words, people who want surgical sub specialties REALLY want it (example: 1 year research fellowship in ophthalmology after 4th year) and are more likely to have competitive applications.

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I would say that there's a little more to "competitiveness" determined by number of applicants:spots available. Generally speaking ER gets more applicants who aren't as serious about 5 year emerg as surgical sub-specialties. In other words, people who want surgical sub specialties REALLY want it (example: 1 year research fellowship in ophthalmology after 4th year) and are more likely to have competitive applications.

 

I agree - a better metric would be the first choice applicants:spots, as this would indicate those who would most prefer a certain specialty. Here is where I got the numbers for 2012 from: http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2012R1_MatchResults/7_Discipline%20Choices%20of%20Canadian%20Applicants_en.pdf

 

Looks like the most competitive, according to this metric, are:

 

1) Vascular Surgery - 1.88

2) Plastic Surgery - 1.73

3) Opthomology - 1.59

4) Dermatology - 1.55

5) Emergency Medicine - 1.35

6) Radiology - 1.34

7) ENT - 1.32

8) Neurosurgery - 1.21

9) Pediatrics - 1.20

10) Obs/Gyne - 1.12

11) General Surgery - 1.11

12) Orthopedics - 1.08

13) Urology - 1.06

 

I find this list pretty surprising, especially Neurosurgery, Peds, and Obs/Gyne. Emergency Medicine is still very high on the list. Urology is surprisingly low IMO.

 

Smaller specialties (e.g. Vascular with only 8 spots) are more likely to fluctuate than the much larger specialties. This also wouldn't take into account the 'gunner' mentality that comes along with certain specialties, and might drive people away from applying in the first place... e.g. Plastics, Derm, Optho, etc...

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I agree - a better metric would be the first choice applicants:spots, as this would indicate those who would most prefer a certain specialty. Here is where I got the numbers for 2012 from: http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2012R1_MatchResults/7_Discipline%20Choices%20of%20Canadian%20Applicants_en.pdf

 

Looks like the most competitive, according to this metric, are:

 

1) Vascular Surgery - 1.88

2) Plastic Surgery - 1.73

3) Opthomology - 1.59

4) Dermatology - 1.55

5) Emergency Medicine - 1.35

6) Radiology - 1.34

7) ENT - 1.32

8) Neurosurgery - 1.21

9) Pediatrics - 1.20

10) Obs/Gyne - 1.12

11) General Surgery - 1.11

12) Orthopedics - 1.08

13) Urology - 1.06

 

I find this list pretty surprising, especially Neurosurgery, Peds, and Obs/Gyne. Emergency Medicine is still very high on the list. Urology is surprisingly low IMO.

 

Smaller specialties (e.g. Vascular with only 8 spots) are more likely to fluctuate than the much larger specialties. This also wouldn't take into account the 'gunner' mentality that comes along with certain specialties, and might drive people away from applying in the first place... e.g. Plastics, Derm, Optho, etc...

 

I'll actually take that one step further. An interesting statistic is look at the table that has applicants that matched to this discipline only vs matched to this discipline and others as well. You will see that the traditionally more competitive subspecialties have ratios that approach one. With that said, the true spirit and nature of the competition is hard to realize from statistics. I've known some applicants who wanted a competitive specialty who limited themselves to ontario, or those who were split between 2 specialties had a first choice specialty of x but followed their 2nd choice onward with specialty y and "didn't get their first choice discipline".

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I agree - a better metric would be the first choice applicants:spots, as this would indicate those who would most prefer a certain specialty.

 

 

When you are talking about competitive specialties does it really matter what one backs up with? Not many people back up with a competitive specialty... It is the other way around. Probably why there is not a huge amount of movement in the top several spots.

 

I agree though as you get towards the middle of the pack it gets more interesting when you look at that ratio.

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