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So are family doctors making more by the hour than a lot of specialists/surgeons?


medigeek

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Source posted on here showed the average income is 300k/year for FM. Many specialists make ~400k/year up to mid 500s (surgeons in that range as well). But often they're working 60-80 hours a week...call.. all that stuff.

 

So by basic math, you're making more as a family doctor by the hour? And with the potential to "work faster" making 350-400k/year with 50 hour weeks still beats out 450k/year with 75 hour weeks.

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Call is very variable among specialists. Also, believe it or not, depending on what you do you can be on call quite often as a family physician (community hospitals with fm hospitalists). So no, I wouldn't say that you can do the math and come up with some sort of conclusion.

However, by the hour, pathologists, dermatologists, ophtalmologists, nukes, rad onc make a heck of a lot more than most specialists.

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Call is very variable among specialists. Also, believe it or not, depending on what you do you can be on call quite often as a family physician (community hospitals with fm hospitalists). So no, I wouldn't say that you can do the math and come up with some sort of conclusion.

However, by the hour, pathologists, dermatologists, ophtalmologists, nukes, rad onc make a heck of a lot more than most specialists.

 

I'm talking about your typical family doctor in the clinic. Seems like there's major potential to beat out surgeons and a large number of specialists in terms of money/time.

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1 - Call is not nearly as onerous as it was in residency for most community surgeons/specialists.

 

2 - There is a lot of variability in those aggregate income numbers.

 

3 - Take home pay is what really matters, and overhead is essentially fixed (office rent, licencing fees/dues, secretary costs don't scale up with hours worked generally). Per hour after tax and overhead income is probably still skewed in favour of the specialist/surgeon.

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I'm talking about your typical family doctor in the clinic. Seems like there's major potential to beat out surgeons and a large number of specialists in terms of money/time.

 

Family physicians who only work in an office based setting are not common at all. Even then they have to take call. FM pays well, but if you want the big $ look somewhere else.

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The best way to get paid in family medicine is to not practice family medicine. What a terrible little fact this is, but its true.

 

Wouldn't it be strange if the best way to do other fields was not to do them? Like the best way to get paid in ophthalmology is to not do ophthalmology? Or the best way to get paid in radiology is to not do it? Strange.

 

Because family medicine =/= office based medicine, it's only 1 aspect of the field. FM obstetrics, ER (the vast majority of ER docs in Canada are still family doctors or 2+1), hospitalists, lumps and bumps etc are considered family medicine as well. Family med is defined by its versatility.

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Source posted on here showed the average income is 300k/year for FM. Many specialists make ~400k/year up to mid 500s (surgeons in that range as well). But often they're working 60-80 hours a week...call.. all that stuff.

 

So by basic math, you're making more as a family doctor by the hour? And with the potential to "work faster" making 350-400k/year with 50 hour weeks still beats out 450k/year with 75 hour weeks.

 

GPs actually average between 220-240K across Canada (figures are everywhere on the official sites). Minus the 80-120K overhead for rent, supplies, utilities, MOA, they bring home basically pharmacist money. And also most of them work 40 hours a week, not including anywhere between 20-40 hours of paperwork at home (they don't have time to type up referral letters or other things during office time, unless they want to see only 10 people a day).

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GPs actually average between 220-240K across Canada (figures are everywhere on the official sites). Minus the 80-120K overhead for rent, supplies, utilities, MOA, they bring home basically pharmacist money. And also most of them work 40 hours a week, not including anywhere between 20-40 hours of paperwork at home (they don't have time to type up referral letters or other things during office time, unless they want to see only 10 people a day).

 

 

 

Quebec being at the lower end of the canadian spectrum, GPs averaged 215K in 2011, so I doubt the canadian avg is 220-240. I would say it hovers more around 290-300k

 

http://santeinc.com/2013/01/statistiques-salariales-medicales-2011/

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GPs actually average between 220-240K across Canada (figures are everywhere on the official sites). Minus the 80-120K overhead for rent, supplies, utilities, MOA, they bring home basically pharmacist money. And also most of them work 40 hours a week, not including anywhere between 20-40 hours of paperwork at home (they don't have time to type up referral letters or other things during office time, unless they want to see only 10 people a day).

 

 

so true, so true.

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so true, so true.

 

So, NOT true. I know a lot of family docs who make way more than that. It's all about how you manage your business and how good your are managing a business.

 

Funny, how we got a lecture about efficient practice and one of the things this doc showed among many things is how EMRs have evolved that you can type and send a referral letter and write a detailed clinical note before the patient walks out of the room. I've seen that and THATs efficiency. THAT is how you can be the GP rivalling specialists.

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So, NOT true. I know a lot of family docs who make way more than that. It's all about how you manage your business and how good your are managing a business.

 

Funny, how we got a lecture about efficient practice and one of the things this doc showed among many things is how EMRs have evolved that you can type and send a referral letter and write a detailed clinical note before the patient walks out of the room. I've seen that and THATs efficiency. THAT is how you can be the GP rivalling specialists.

 

although I have mad love for FM, I am going for Medical Genetics, Medical Biochemistry and backing up with FM. I say true, because every FM rotation I had the doctors nagged about the work load at home.

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So, NOT true. I know a lot of family docs who make way more than that. It's all about how you manage your business and how good your are managing a business.

 

Funny, how we got a lecture about efficient practice and one of the things this doc showed among many things is how EMRs have evolved that you can type and send a referral letter and write a detailed clinical note before the patient walks out of the room. I've seen that and THATs efficiency. THAT is how you can be the GP rivalling specialists.

 

You know a lot of family docs? How many? 30 maybe? Sorry that doesn't say a lot about the average income.

 

Obviously it's about how you manage your business but we're talking about average here, not the highest you can make.

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You know a lot of family docs? How many? 30 maybe? Sorry that doesn't say a lot about the average income.

 

Obviously it's about how you manage your business but we're talking about average here, not the highest you can make.

 

I am sorry , I know like 5-6 FM docs

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The cerebral aspect of family medicine is not compensated, and this includes home paperwork/labwork evaluations etc.

 

It's quite unfortunate that the only way to practice family medicine profitably is to not practice family medicine. This is why you see so many CCFPs working in EDs, doing derm, cosmo, lumps/bumps, sports, etc.

 

What do you think of Family Doctors who get a genetic fellowship, I believe I would be the only one in Canada, I really dont know what went wrong in my Genetics IV. I just forgot to mention about research since I was so stressed out of the IV. I guess it worked out some how or not, since I did not even match into FM.

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GPs actually average between 220-240K across Canada (figures are everywhere on the official sites). Minus the 80-120K overhead for rent, supplies, utilities, MOA, they bring home basically pharmacist money. And also most of them work 40 hours a week, not including anywhere between 20-40 hours of paperwork at home (they don't have time to type up referral letters or other things during office time, unless they want to see only 10 people a day).

 

I'd like to chip in here as a practicing GP in Vancouver, in both hospital and community settings.

 

A major reason physicians choose FM is the flexibility.

Of the 8 female GPs I worked with in the last 4 years, an average work week = 4 days. Several of them actually work 10-3, to coincide with kids' school hours.

 

FM is one of the fields where there is a large variation on hours worked.

 

Let's look at an "average" Vancouver male GP in community practice,

seeing (only) 5 pts/hr, 35 pts/day (8-8.5 hrs/day incl. lunch/paperwork), 5 days/week. (your estimte of 20-40 hrs/wk of paperwork is a gross-overestimation, only possible if you're an extremely slow writer in an extremely disorganized paper-based office focusing on writing medico-legal reports - which are actually quite lucrative by the way)

 

Assume 47 work-weeks/year, that means 8225 pts/year

Assume Avg billing = $33/pt (including complex care/3rd party fees),

then Annual Total billings= $271,425

Assume he gets the "Standard" split (or overhead) of 70/30, then pre-tax income is $190k.

 

Now let's look at an "average" Vancouver hospital/community-clinic based GP:

BCMA/Province negotiated hourly salary/fee is $115/hr

Assume Avg 40 hours/week, 47 weeks/year.

Then Net pre-tax income = $216k.

 

I'd say $190k-$216k ($115/hr) is higher than avg pharmacists' income of $80k ($40/hr).

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So working 47 hours a week but making 190k pretax still sounds on the low end of physician income in my opinion...physicians working at academic centres working **2**clinic days per week (rest of the time on admin and research ) are averaging around 300k in BC. (Oncologists on the Vancouver Sun public salary disclosure, for example. Or IM subspecialists at VGH billing ffs)

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So working 47 hours a week but making 190k pretax still sounds on the low end of physician income in my opinion...physicians working at academic centres working **2**clinic days per week (rest of the time on admin and research ) are averaging around 300k in BC. (Oncologists on the Vancouver Sun public salary disclosure, for example. Or IM subspecialists at VGH billing ffs)

 

Median Canadian income (2010) for a non-senior individual was $27,500 and average was $32,250.

 

I don't care if you're a physician or not, you're doing pretty damn good either way.

 

How about some perspective?

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Median Canadian income (2010) for a non-senior individual was $27,500 and average was $32,250.

 

I don't care if you're a physician or not, you're doing pretty damn good either way.

 

How about some perspective?

 

How about some reality? Radiologists and cardiologists can bill over $1 mil a year. :eek:

Remember kids, if you're not first, you're last. :rolleyes:

 

P.S. Only one of us will be first, and it's likely not you, so we're all screwed.

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Please give some specific examples of which jobs you're talking about which are making those salaries (20-30k) and then continue to name some more jobs which require a degree, and then some jobs which require further advanced training/ trade schools. 20-30k are your $10-12/hr jobs.

 

Bus/truck drivers/ mall security guards are making 50k+. Trades right after highschool are making 40-60k+. Unit clerks are making 70k and nurses are making 100k+. Teachers are making 70-90k and elementary school principals are making 140k.

 

All I'm saying is that as a physician you shouldn't feel bad that you are well-compensated. And that 190k for 5pts/hour and 9 hrs/day is on the lower spectrum of physicians.

 

We are pointing out that family doctors are getting paid less. Just because it's still it's pretty good compared to _______ doesn't mean it's right.

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Please give some specific examples of which jobs you're talking about which are making those salaries (20-30k) and then continue to name some more jobs which require a degree, and then some jobs which require further advanced training/ trade schools. 20-30k are your $10-12/hr jobs.

 

Bus/truck drivers/ mall security guards are making 50k+. Trades right after highschool are making 40-60k+. Unit clerks are making 70k and nurses are making 100k+. Teachers are making 70-90k and elementary school principals are making 140k.

 

All I'm saying is that as a physician you shouldn't feel bad that you are well-compensated. And that 190k for 5pts/hour and 9 hrs/day is on the lower spectrum of physicians.

 

We are pointing out that family doctors are getting paid less. Just because it's still it's pretty good compared to _______ doesn't mean it's right.

 

Actually $10/hr for 40 hrs/week with 50 weeks of the year (highly unlikely be working that much) would be 20k / year.

 

Make it $25/hr and thats 50k.

 

I don't know where you live but security guards here don't get paid $25/hr. They make closer to minimum wage. Trades after highschool don't get 40-60k average. I know MANY engineer/computer sci friends and they make around 40-60k (the average posted by the university Co-op is around 30k) Pharmacists now get paid less than $40/hr (Costco pays highest in Van and they pay $38/hr) so around 70k, so I HIGHLY doubt nurses make 100k+

 

Teachers also don't get paid 70-90k or anything close to it. Professors salary are posted from UBC at least and there are only a handful of profs making over 90k.

 

However I agree with your point about family doctors!

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Hey, it's a good discussion about the various professions and what they make. Here is where I'm getting my salaries from:

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/public-sector-salaries/basic.html

 

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/pssd/

 

I highly suggest clicking through the various categories.

 

You can set the categories to education, health etc.

 

If you set it to education, there are 1400 elementary and highschool teachers in BC making over 100k. And I don't know how many that is in the Ontario article. Of course this commensurates with experience but the thing is that they have 3 months summer vacation, professional-development days, get off work at 4 PM, have pensions, bonuses and no overhead, etc.

 

You can also look up University professors and quite a lot of them make over 100-150k.

 

You can also look at firefighters, police officers (search for constables, Sergeants, etc)...and they are in the 70-80k-average range too.

 

And there's actually a very large number of nurses making over 100k. This can be seen in the Vancouver Sun link and also if you look at other provinces too, such as Ontario.

 

 

The thing with a posted hourly salary is that they frequently receive overtime bonuses, so even though nurse job postings in BC often say $30-40/hour, as you can see, it's not a simple calculation of multiplying #hours and #weeks.

 

 

While I won't say that just because we have gone through years of training we are entitled to a job that pays extremely well, what we CAN do is acknowledge that since we are going to be working professionals, it is within reason to raise issues about income disparities. And that includes not being idle and letting fingers being pointed at us saying our salaries are all ridiculous compared to everybody else.

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