Theists vs Atheists/Agnostics

[Orcamute]

lol so typical of Christians to bash Atheists. that's okay though, everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

[futurepediatric]

lol so typical of Christians to bash Atheists. that's okay though, everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

 

No one has 'bashed' anyone yet - the opposite is common as well though

 

Birdy mentioned multiple times she was not Christian (if I understood correctly) and if that's what you're speaking about

[Exocytosis]

And regardless of your dismissiveness, a large majority of Christians take the Bible as figurative, a guidebook, not a literal recounting of events.

 

Fun fact: Thomas Jefferson was so fed up with people focusing on the dogmatic and doctrinal aspects of Christianity instead of its ethical/moral teachings that he edited his own version of the bible that completely omitted any references to the supernatural.

 

Also, your mother's views sound a lot like deism.

[thebouque]

''if we breathe in these tasteless/odorless gases; CO4, CO2, CH4.. WE'RE DEAD."

 

We breathe in these gases, keep in mind that FiO2 is around 21%

 

''we lack the enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase (Vitamin C production..which is found in the majority of living organisms).''

 

Scurvy is extremely rare, and treatable (when diagnosed)

 

''All the Cancers and Unknown Birth Defects (far too long to list)''

 

What about them?

 

 

''Vision loss (we are also blind to the majority of the Electromagnetic Spectrum..including Ionizing Radiation)''

 

That's actually a good thing. If you were to see the whole spectrum you wouldn't see anything.

 

''We're comatose for more than 40% of our lives''

 

Being comatose =/= sleeping

 

''the malformation of the human spine''

 

You mean malformations of the human spine? Or that the normal anatomy of the spine is a malformation to you? The curvatures of the spine allow for special movements that are adapted to each part of the spine.

 

''Knee Joints that bend only one way"

 

It actually adds a lot of stability.

 

''barely used muscles like the plantaris muscle of the foot''

 

It's in the calf, not the foot

 

''The majority of our brain we can't use (and forget the majority of what we learn)''

 

We use our whole brain, it's a myth that we only use 10% or so. Also, it's actually a good thing that our memory doesn't store everything, same logic with the electromagnetic spectrum.

 

''the long neural pathway that takes photic information from the eyes to the pineal gland (but goes to the Thoracic Spinal Cord instead of just connecting the Paraventricular Nucleus to the Pineal Gland &c.)''

 

I agree with you that this pathway is a little lousy, but the pineal has nothing to do with it, it's the edinger westphal nucleus. It's not because the pineal is identified on your diagram that the pathway goes through it.

 

Who edited your article????

[FrenchToast]

Who edited your article????

 

My thoughts exactly, especially because of the egregious grammatical errors. Yikes.

[TracyK]

Orcamute, if/when you have a kid one day, think about this discussion as you stare in disgust at the sheer imperfection of him/her

 

I suppose it's a "glass half full/half empty" kind of discussion.

[Birdy]

Fun fact: Thomas Jefferson was so fed up with people focusing on the dogmatic and doctrinal aspects of Christianity instead of its ethical/moral teachings that he edited his own version of the bible that completely omitted any references to the supernatural.

 

Also, your mother's views sound a lot like deism.

 

She identifies as Christian, so I call her one, though I don't disagree that she seems deistic from what I do know. Despite the fact that my father is a minister, my parents and I very rarely discuss religion, so I can't claim to know all of their personal interpretations of their particular belief systems, outside of the bits they have told me.

 

lol so typical of Christians to bash Atheists. that's okay though, everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

 

Pointing out weaknesses in an argument is not 'bashing.' It's discussion.

 

I have no beef with atheism or Atheists. I do not particularly care about the religious belief (or absence thereof) of other people, so long as they aren't harming others with it.

[duck_season]

Religious premed here. I'm enjoying the active discussion in this thread.

 

WHY would any god design this??

 

Why can't He?

 

My thoughts exactly, especially because of the egregious grammatical errors. Yikes.

 

Agreed. Also, thanks to thebouque for pointing out most of the flaws in that article. I also noticed you bring up vestigial features to support the theory God is not real. But what if I told you religious people can also believe in natural selection.

[Birdy]

Orcamute, if/when you have a kid one day, think about this discussion as you stare in disgust at the sheer imperfection of him/her

 

I suppose it's a "glass half full/half empty" kind of discussion.

 

I do have kids, and while my children are absolutely amazing and I love them immensely, acknowledging inefficiencies and difficulties posed by our evolution is not the same thing as staring in disgust. My children are perfect little humans, but humans have difficulties. That's why we have developed medicine, after all.

[TracyK]

I do have kids, and while my children are absolutely amazing and I love them immensely, acknowledging inefficiencies and difficulties posed by our evolution is not the same thing as staring in disgust. My children are perfect little humans, but humans have difficulties. That's why we have developed medicine, after all.

 

There are of course inefficiencies and difficulties, just trying to suggest a balance exists. It's certainly not all bad. Lots of negativity on this thread hence my tongue-in-cheek response.

[Birdy]

There are of course inefficiencies and difficulties, just trying to suggest a balance exists. It's certainly not all bad. Lots of negativity on this thread hence my tongue-in-cheek response.

 

Makes sense. Sometimes I miss tongue-in-cheek tones in text.

[pheochromocytoma]

i am always surprised how many peopl are arrogant enough to believe that they know enough about the universe and human body to think that they can point out aspects that a creator should have designed better. if God wanted to create a disease free world where people lived forever he would have done so, and taken away free will so that we don't do stupid things. embryology is a beautiful orchestra of incredibly complex rxns and coordinations, yet people look at structures and, because they don't know or understand why it is where it is/does what it does/ etc, they state it should have been designed differently. i personally am incredibly humbled to think of the complexities and intricacies of the human body, and medical school has only strengthen my belief in God.

[Let'sGo1990]

i am always surprised how many peopl are arrogant enough to believe that they know enough about the universe and human body to think that they can point out aspects that a creator should have designed better. if God wanted to create a disease free world where people lived forever he would have done so, and taken away free will so that we don't do stupid things. embryology is a beautiful orchestra of incredibly complex rxns and coordinations, yet people look at structures and, because they don't know or understand why it is where it is/does what it does/ etc, they state it should have been designed differently. i personally am incredibly humbled to think of the complexities and intricacies of the human body, and medical school has only strengthen my belief in God.

 

Let's say that our flaws were intentional.

 

That would be an awfully cruel thing for a benevolent deity to do.

[pheochromocytoma]

so ur sayin it would be better if you were made to live forever? and that you wish everyone on earth lived forever? after a little bit of thinking im sure you could come up some negatives to this as well. no?

[Let'sGo1990]

so ur sayin it would be better if you were made to live forever? and that you wish everyone on earth lived forever? after a little bit of thinking im sure you could come up some negatives to this as well. no?

 

I think that if God wanted to/cared, he/she could have found a way to make everything rosy while incorporating all those things. Nothings impossible for him/her.

[Comeon]

It is amazing how long this discussion has gone on for (within and beyond this forum). Questioning the existence of a god and his/her choices is not going to change anything - but it certainly gives insights into your personalities. Death should hold the answers and satisfy only your personal curiosity.

[nosuperman]

i am always surprised how many peopl are arrogant enough to believe that they know enough about the universe and human body to think that they can point out aspects that a creator should have designed better. if God wanted to create a disease free world where people lived forever he would have done so, and taken away free will so that we don't do stupid things. embryology is a beautiful orchestra of incredibly complex rxns and coordinations, yet people look at structures and, because they don't know or understand why it is where it is/does what it does/ etc, they state it should have been designed differently. i personally am incredibly humbled to think of the complexities and intricacies of the human body, and medical school has only strengthen my belief in God.

 

The whole statement is unreasonable because its unfalsifiable. Its complex and wonderful? Wow God did it and its reaffirming. Its apparently flawed and leads to countless malfunctions? Wow you can't know the mind of God. People arrogantly claim to know the mind of God in one instance (who he hates, which rules we're to follow, how, when, or why he created the earth and the animals) and just as easily explain away other instances as being part of some unknowable plan.

[futurepediatric]

The whole statement is unreasonable because its unfalsifiable. Its complex and wonderful? Wow God did it and its reaffirming. Its apparently flawed and leads to countless malfunctions? Wow you can't know the mind of God. People arrogantly claim to know the mind of God in one instance (who he hates, which rules we're to follow, how, when, or why he created the earth and the animals) and just as easily explain away other instances as being part of some unknowable plan.

 

While there is truth to this, reasoning that God does not exist b/c we as humans see the body as 'imperfect' is equally futile - well it's not really an argument against the existence of God at all. A lot of people use the impact of a belief of God on society to argue against the existence of God, but the whether the social impact of believing in God is good or bad (and I am not saying it is bad), does not prove or disprove the existence of God within reason

[Exocytosis]

That would be an awfully cruel thing for a benevolent deity to do.

 

I'm telling you man' date=' Trickster God. Totally fits.

 

You can't [i']disprove[/i] it therefore I'm right (that's how this works, right?)

[futurepediatric]

I'm telling you man, Trickster God. Totally fits.

 

You can't disprove it therefore I'm right (that's how this works, right?)

 

Loool such an exaggeration/overgeneralization. And it went both ways really as people also tried to use the 'imperfections' they see about humans to disprove God

[Exocytosis]

Loool such an exaggeration/overgeneralization. And it went both ways really as people also tried to use the 'imperfections' they see about humans to disprove God

 

?

 

That has nothing to do with what I said so I'm going to assume you're also a Trickster God. And since you can't disprove that it means I'm right.

 

I think I'm getting pretty good at this religion thing.

[PhoenixFlare500]

lol so typical of Christians to bash Atheists. that's okay though, everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

 

Actually that's not typical at all. I've grown up in the church all my life and been around many different Christian communities/groups (very large sample size). I've rarely heard any Christian insult atheists for being atheists. I have on the other hand, experienced the opposite many times, in public company.

 

I think that if God wanted to/cared' date=' he/she could have found a way to make everything rosy while incorporating all those things. Nothings impossible for him/her.[/quote']

 

I'm just going to address this from a Christian perspective since I don't know enough about other religions' views, but basically if you read the first bit of the Bible (which is where Christian beliefs come from), God created people with the intent of having them live forever, it was only because of "sin" that death entered the world. They were however, designed to be dependent on God, not God themselves. Also free will. That's my lazy way of addressing further debate.

[futureGP]

See, usually..people who are scientifically literate /logical thinkers..are atheists (from what I have seen) so its very interesting to see that this is not the case here. You would think, as a medical student..you are kind of a contradiction of the point of a God (i.e saving people) and your background knowledge in the human anatomy (with all of its faults which hints on a poor designer &c.) would perhaps lead you to agnosticism.

 

i just want to point out

 

well.. you're assuming that any deity/God would design something to be perfect.. which assumes that you know what God/deity is thinking if she/he exists.

imperfection in humanity is a very common theme in many religions

 

 

from my experience, religions are quite equally well represented in medicine compared to anything else i.e. doctors aren't necessarily atheists

[futureGP]

Let's say that our flaws were intentional.

 

That would be an awfully cruel thing for a benevolent deity to do.

 

why does a deity have to be so benevolent. in fact an inherently benevolent deity is most likely a false assumption based on our need to believe that a deity has to be good and kind (Which is quite false in pretty much all the religions including Christianity -- quite commonly misunderstood by many Christians too who think the Judeo-Christian God is just an all-giving, benevolent God which is not true).

 

 

Also, i think both arguments are possible when you approach the 'design' of a human body to justify your side.

 

As much as there is 'chaos' in our body, there is also 'structure' that is quite consistent among all of us. The complexity of embryological signalling leading to formation of the limbs, internal organs, and intricate branching within the organs and all the neurological connections.

 

i sorta see the human body as a fine balance between chaos and order -- yin and yang, activators and inhibitors, sympathetic and parasympathetic systems.

 

and essentially all we are doing in medicine is tipping the balance towards the better when things go wrong e.g. probably most prevalent in endocrinology when we try to maintain hormonal homeostasis.

 

many belief systems focus on the idea that humans are imperfect but at the same time retain perfection.

 

it isn't a coincidence why so many fantasy novels and movies (that are primarily based on traditional folk religion/beliefs and legends that can be seen as some form of religion) portray humans as having an ambivalent nature with a typical theme of finding perfection in imperfection.

 

e.g. elves being at the end where they're inherently flawless on the extreme of 'light' or yang, and the orcs being on the other end where they're on the opposite extreme of the spectrum, representing 'dark' or yin.

-- lord of the rings is basically a story of men achieving this 'perfection' although inherently flawed (aragorn being the one achieving this 'perfection' whereas his own ancestor Isildur representing the flawed nature of humans, unable to throw the ring of power into Mount Doom)

[nosuperman]

While there is truth to this, reasoning that God does not exist b/c we as humans see the body as 'imperfect' is equally futile - well it's not really an argument against the existence of God at all. A lot of people use the impact of a belief of God on society to argue against the existence of God, but the whether the social impact of believing in God is good or bad (and I am not saying it is bad), does not prove or disprove the existence of God within reason

 

Right, the entire premise is unreasonable because it rests on two fallacies. First is the unfalsifiable premise that our body's can communicate any information on the presence or absence of a creator in general (let alone a specific one). Second that it rests on purely subjective claims like "perfect" or "imperfect" which are entirely subject to our own biases in this context.

 

If you or I or some alien were to visit the earth and discuss where our bodies came from we would not need a discussion of "I think it looks perfect" or "imperfect" - it is how it is. We would simply agree that our tissues arise from genes that vary in frequency through generations and are inherited and subject to different success. We would use this premise to make numerous predictions, to explain complex phenomena, and we'd see it empirically validated time and time again.

 

There'd never be a discussion of "The spinal segments look designed" because we'd be able to trace the origins of the mammalian vertebrae, the relevant hox clusters, and somites, etc. We even be able to look at existing gene frequencies and mating patterns and make accurate predictions on how these segments would be in future generations.

 

Edit: Which isn't to say that it can't be cool, or mind-bogglingly amazing, or humbling to the point that you feel spiritually connected to the universe. Those are valid descriptions of experience. When I think of the massively complex array of things happening in my hand right now its awe inspiring. To convert this subjective experience into objective knowledge "This is awesome... therefor I was created by _____" requires some self-trickery and flawed reasoning.