Theists vs Atheists/Agnostics

[Silverwolf1277]

I agree but religious people and atheists are VERY firm with their positions. Yes, this is anecdotal, but this is my opinion. I don't believe advocating a certain religion or political view in Canada is going to gain anything.

 

 

 

 

Some people may, but that assumes people are open to change. From experience (whatever that's worth..) people, religious or non-religious, will argue until the day they die about their beliefs. Having a healthy debate is fine, just not something I have had the opportunity to have my opinion heard. My opinion means nothing if it doesn't agree with a person's belief system.

 

 

 

Execution and "not caring" are two very different things. I am not arguing change, I am saying that, in my opinion, it's not worth the time at this point. What will you gain from it? What makes you think you're right? I am all for questioning, I just don't care! Religion doesn't rule Canada these days.

 

Again, we are talking about two different things. Not caring about religious beliefs does not make me pro-slavery. My views are my opinion, and I don't believe what you are talking about is anywhere near the same level of reality in Canada today.

 

 

The US? I don't know enough about it to comment, but I would really like an explanation. Even so, I am talking about Canada, where we live. Again, what I stated is just my opinion.

 

 

It's not really an argument, more of an opinion. Just because religion has changed in the past doesn't mean it will change now. There is much more diversity now which allows for a much larger number of religious beliefs. It's much different than it was 100 or more years ago.

 

 

 

Not telling anyone to "shut-up". Just stating my opinion. My opinion is I don't care what anyone believes. It really makes no difference to me. But hey, I guess that makes me a bad guy. Your condescending points are much more controversial than anything I said.

 

Pretty sure he wasn't trying to say that you were pro-execution-for-heresy or pro-slavery. The point he was (I think) trying to illustrate was that change has often come from discussions that challenge others' ideas or firmly-held beliefs. Even if it doesn't change anyone else's opinion, I do agree with Wayward Son that it helps you to clarify and re-think your own ideas.

 

As for the US, I'll take a guess at what he might have been referring to. It has the highest percentage of people among developed nations (with the exception of Turkey) who don't accept that evolution happened. It has an entire party, supported by about half of the country's party-registered voters, whose social platform is predominantly based on archaic religious belief. Also, the biggest military in the world by far. That's a potentially very dangerous combination.

 

It's cool if you only care about what is happening where you live at this moment and nothing else, but people who choose to take a wider interest in the world, or have skin in the game elsewhere, realize that religion is important and at the heart of the majority of the world's geopolitical problem. Imagine if you were from a country whose leaders believed in Santa Claus, and imposed these beliefs on its people, and tried to use it as an excuse to control its people, and the country's stability was in a constant state of threat due to this belief. You'd probably find it pretty frustrating that such a menial belief was having such a large and negative impact, not only on your country but across the world.

[Wayward son]

I agree but religious people and atheists are VERY firm with their positions. Yes, this is anecdotal, but this is my opinion. I don't believe advocating a certain religion or political view in Canada is going to gain anything.

 

Some people may, but that assumes people are open to change. From experience (whatever that's worth..) people, religious or non-religious, will argue until the day they die about their beliefs. Having a healthy debate is fine, just not something I have had the opportunity to have my opinion heard. My opinion means nothing if it doesn't agree with a person's belief system.

 

Execution and "not caring" are two very different things. I am not arguing change, I am saying that, in my opinion, it's not worth the time at this point. What will you gain from it? What makes you think you're right? I am all for questioning, I just don't care! Religion doesn't rule Canada these days.

 

Again, we are talking about two different things. Not caring about religious beliefs does not make me pro-slavery. My views are my opinion, and I don't believe what you are talking about is anywhere near the same level of reality in Canada today.

 

The US? I don't know enough about it to comment, but I would really like an explanation. Even so, I am talking about Canada, where we live. Again, what I stated is just my opinion.

 

It's not really an argument, more of an opinion. Just because religion has changed in the past doesn't mean it will change now. There is much more diversity now which allows for a much larger number of religious beliefs. It's much different than it was 100 or more years ago.

 

Not telling anyone to "shut-up". Just stating my opinion. My opinion is I don't care what anyone believes. It really makes no difference to me. But hey, I guess that makes me a bad guy. Your condescending points are much more controversial than anything I said.

 

It is too late for me to reply to most of this, so I will just touch on certain points.

 

1) You ask what makes me think that I am right?

On any topic for which I hold a position, I take the position which I feel is best supported by the evidence. If I come upon better evidence then my position changes based on that position. I find that discussing topics with people who hold opposing views allows me to come in contact with positions, evidence, arguments that I would not have come in contact with. Some of those positions, evidence and arguments will be garbage, some will be really good. It also allows me to see if the position I hold is rigorous, flawed or somewhere in between. Every position I hold is provisional. I have changed my position on countless topics throughout my life.

 

2) You feel that religious people and atheists can't have their minds changed. I disagree. I know several people who have gone from one pole to the other, and most people I know have changed at least some facet of their religious and political views. I would be surprised if I knew anyone whose religious and political views remain completely unchanged throughout their entire adult life.

 

3) Was I saying you were pro-execution for heresy and pro-slavery? Yes, absolutely. It could be interpreted that the argument I was making was that even very large scale changes have occurred in the past over short periods of time because firmly held beliefs were challenged....but accusing you of being pro-slavery and pro-execution seems like the better interpretation.

 

4) "Not telling anyone to "shut-up"." doesn't fit with your previous statement: "Never question people's religion or political interests."

 

5) "Your condescending points are much more controversial than anything I said." First, I am perfectly happy being controversial. Second, I find at least some irony in being called condescending by someone who said:

 

-People who argue religion are a joke

-people who argue against it are more of a joke

-religious people and atheists are VERY firm with their positions

 

You seem to hold pretty firm beliefs about whole groups of people. You seem to be pretty cynical about large groups of people.

[Wayward son]

I really have no idea bout the USA so I won't comment on specifics. But I will ask you where you got your stats from. Everything aside, what makes you think you're right and they're wrong? I have no opinion on this, but you obviously you do. Show some stats to back up your view.

 

I generally support the position that the person making the positive claim should provide the evidence. However, at the same time the polls on creationism/evolution views in the United States are so well known, consistently established, and so easy to find that...really if you have no opinion, don't care, and can't do a simple google search....well it feels like enabling a lazy, apathetic person, who just calls anyone who disagrees with them condescending......

 

"Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. The prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago."

 

It goes far beyond evolution though. The anti-science and bigoted social views that pervade the United States are easy to see for any one who pays any attention. Many of those same views are becoming more prevalent in Canada. In both cases the growth of those views and certain brands of religion are linked.

[Silverwolf1277]

 

I really have no idea bout the USA so I won't comment on specifics. But I will ask you where you got your stats from. Everything aside, what makes you think you're right and they're wrong? I have no opinion on this, but you obviously you do. Show some stats to back up your view.

 

Thanks to wayward son for providing the exact stat (the studies really are numerous and really really easy to find), but I gotta comment on this part. The stat isn't how many people believe in god. Belief in god, while I personally do not and think it is unlikely that he exists, is somewhat more dubious. Especially if you believe in a non-interventionist god who just 'got the ball rolling' at the Big Bang. The stat was regarding belief in creationism vs. the acceptance of evolution.

 

In this case, what makes me thing I'm right is that evolution is a well-supported scientific theory that has only gotten stronger as the years have gone by, while creationism is a ridiculous belief that has loads of scientific evidence against it. When half the people in the country next to us believe in creationism, I think there's cause for concern.

EDIT: Evolution is accepted as a fact by most serious and intelligent religious people, including prominent theologians and the Catholic Church itself. Belief in creationism is no longer a religion vs. non-religion debate, it's a science vs. pseudoscience debate. If you think god exists, you're likely wrong but noone really knows. If you think the earth is 6,000 years old, you're just wrong, period.

[monty]

It goes far beyond evolution though. The anti-science and bigoted social views that pervade the United States are easy to see for any one who pays any attention. Many of those same views are becoming more prevalent in Canada. In both cases the growth of those views and certain brands of religion are linked.

 

You really think it is coming to Canada? I have not seen this yet, but I mostly associate with university educated people. Even in my volunteering and current employment I do not see these opinions. Although I have recently had a friend on a social media site flaming modern biological theory, so who knows? I have always thought Canadians were better informed than the average American.