How much dentists owning their own practice earn on average?

[jameskim9]

I know there are sources about these but I think incomes reported by them are necessarily what they actually earn (not everyone reported all, due to high tax, etc.)

 

So, if there are current dentists here, do you mind sharing how much dentists on average dentists earn if they own one, and how much the overhead is..?

 

It would help some people still undecided with schools (med/dent)!

 

thanks

[Ostracized]

I don't know the answer. Too variable with respect to geography. I know that the dentist I work for has been making negative income for the last few years. Messed up.

[cookiemonster99]

I don't know the answer. Too variable with respect to geography. I know that the dentist I work for has been making negative income for the last few years. Messed up.

 

If the job market is so bad then why are competition into dental school still so high.

 

From what you've been posting on the forums you seem to be giving an negative impression of the job prospective for dentistry.

 

If you do a simple search you can find ads advertise to hire associates at $100/hr and yearly salary of $175,000.(links below respectively)

 

http://www.saskjobs.ca/jsp/joborder/detail.jsp?job_order_id=560564

 

http://archive.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=7486394&Source=JobPosting

 

I have no idea where you're getting the information from or whether it is true or not but from the students that I have talked to whose parents are dentists and have their practices in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto they have no issue finding patients. Also, it seems very unlikely that a dental practice would have a negative income without looking at their balance sheet. The other thing that you might want to consider is whether the practice owner is willing to tell you what their practice is pulling in. It might be easier to just make it seem like they are losing money.

 

You also have to think that major cities=more people thus more patients but yes there are also more dentists.

small cities have less people thus less patients but also less dentists so everyone comes to you.

[uwopremed]

If the job market is so bad then why are competition into dental school still so high.

 

From what you've been posting on the forums you seem to be giving an negative impression of the job prospective for dentistry.

 

If you do a simple search you can find ads advertise to hire associates at $100/hr and yearly salary of $175,000.(links below respectively)

 

http://www.saskjobs.ca/jsp/joborder/detail.jsp?job_order_id=560564

 

http://archive.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=7486394&Source=JobPosting

 

I have no idea where you're getting the information from or whether it is true or not but from the students that I have talked to whose parents are dentists and have their practices in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto they have no issue finding patients. Also, it seems very unlikely that a dental practice would have a negative income without looking at their balance sheet. The other thing that you might want to consider is whether the practice owner is willing to tell you what their practice is pulling in. It might be easier to just make it seem like they are losing money.

 

You also have to think that major cities=more people thus more patients but yes there are also more dentists.

small cities have less people thus less patients but also less dentists so everyone comes to you.

 

A very high percentage of people in dentistry are the children or siblings of other dentists. In my town, many of the dentist groups are siblings and father with son/daughter. A high percentage of students are also disproportionately from small ethnic groups that tend to prefer their children go into the free professions ( at least at western) - ( mainly jewish, lebanese, persian, chinese, korean). The reason? INCOME IS AMAZING.

 

The average associate in a big city working full time makes around 120-150K. In a small city, the cut is higher, and hard working dentists make well over 200K. Of course the real money is in owning a practice. This usually requires taking on more debt than you already have - but you purchase it like a mortgage in a house. If successful (which is pretty much guaranteed in medium size cities or smaller), you will likely make, pre tax but post expense, well over 400K a year. Many make well over a million a year. But the thing is that the practice itself also goes up in value with time. So when you retire, you sell the practice as an appreciating asset. There is so much money to be made in dentistry, it's crazy. This is not including the pure goldmines like doing braces, or maxilofacial surgery. Puts most specialist doctors to shame - without the headaches of most physicians.

[Mighty Molar]

How much restaurateurs owning their restaurant earn on average?

 

I think when it comes to business, the average doesn't mean anything We can't take the profit of Microsoft corporation together with small software developing companies, calculate the average, and say that's how much businessmen in IT section make, right?

[DDSDMD]

A very high percentage of people in dentistry are the children or siblings of other dentists. In my town, many of the dentist groups are siblings and father with son/daughter. A high percentage of students are also disproportionately from small ethnic groups that tend to prefer their children go into the free professions ( at least at western) - ( mainly jewish, lebanese, persian, chinese, korean). The reason? INCOME IS AMAZING.

 

The average associate in a big city working full time makes around 120-150K. In a small city, the cut is higher, and hard working dentists make well over 200K. Of course the real money is in owning a practice. This usually requires taking on more debt than you already have - but you purchase it like a mortgage in a house. If successful (which is pretty much guaranteed in medium size cities or smaller), you will likely make, pre tax but post expense, well over 400K a year. Many make well over a million a year. But the thing is that the practice itself also goes up in value with time. So when you retire, you sell the practice as an appreciating asset. There is so much money to be made in dentistry, it's crazy. This is not including the pure goldmines like doing braces, or maxilofacial surgery. Puts most specialist doctors to shame - without the headaches of most physicians.

 

Not necessarily true anymore... Where are you getting this information? MANY make well over a million a year? DEFINITELY not true. uwopremed are you even in the field of dentistry or are you just a premed who goes around this forum posting like as if you know everything about every field out there because based on your past posts, that seems to be the case. Please stop spreading misleading information you might be painting the wrong picture for other users of this forum.

[DDSDMD]

A very high percentage of people in dentistry are the children or siblings of other dentists. In my town, many of the dentist groups are siblings and father with son/daughter. A high percentage of students are also disproportionately from small ethnic groups that tend to prefer their children go into the free professions ( at least at western) - ( mainly jewish, lebanese, persian, chinese, korean). The reason? INCOME IS AMAZING.

 

The average associate in a big city working full time makes around 120-150K. In a small city, the cut is higher, and hard working dentists make well over 200K. Of course the real money is in owning a practice. This usually requires taking on more debt than you already have - but you purchase it like a mortgage in a house. If successful (which is pretty much guaranteed in medium size cities or smaller), you will likely make, pre tax but post expense, well over 400K a year. Many make well over a million a year. But the thing is that the practice itself also goes up in value with time. So when you retire, you sell the practice as an appreciating asset. There is so much money to be made in dentistry, it's crazy. This is not including the pure goldmines like doing braces, or maxilofacial surgery. Puts most specialist doctors to shame - without the headaches of most physicians.

 

LOL according to uwopremed pharmacists are nothing more than a glorified store clerk. This is just beyond ridiculous. I can't believe someone with a mindset like yourself is pursuing medicine. It seems like all you care about is how much money, respect and prestige your future career will provide you. If that is the case, why are you even pursuing medicine? You should just go into orthodontics or omfs since they will earn you truckloads of cash and put most md's income to shame.

 

To all the predents, if you do things correctly, dentistry will let you live very comfortably! But keep in mind that you are not guaranteed a certain range of salary just because you graduated from a dental school! I have seen both extremes, some filing for bankruptcy 2-3 years after graduation and some hitting it off very well and bringing in the big bucks. There are no guarantees but there will always be variations and its up to you as to whether you make it into the right side of the extremes. If you are passionate about dentistry and you are willing to make sacrifices and be honest and work hard then patients will come to you and you will definitely make the big bucks.

[Mighty Molar]

LOL according to uwopremed pharmacists are nothing more than a glorified store clerk. This is just beyond ridiculous. I can't believe someone with a mindset like yourself is pursuing medicine. It seems like all you care about is how much money, respect and prestige your future career will provide you. If that is the case, why are you even pursuing medicine? You should just go into orthodontics or omfs since they will earn you truckloads of cash and put most md's income to shame.

 

To all the predents, if you do things correctly, dentistry will let you live very comfortably! But keep in mind that you are not guaranteed a certain range of salary just because you graduated from a dental school! I have seen both extremes, some filing for bankruptcy 2-3 years after graduation and some hitting it off very well and bringing in the big bucks. There are no guarantees but there will always be variations and its up to you as to whether you make it into the right side of the extremes. If you are passionate about dentistry and you are willing to make sacrifices and be honest and work hard then patients will come to you and you will definitely make the big bucks.

 

Agree with DDSDMD on the 2nd paragraph. However, concerning the money part, no DMD or MD, including OMFS or Ortho, ever reach the Forbe 500 list We make decent income, but compares to the wealthy class, we make just pennies

 

Reference: http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/#tab:overall_header:worth

 

Assume that a superstar MD or DMD make 1mil a year, that doctor would need to work a 613 years (6 centuries) to get into the lowest rank (#1637) in the wealthy list above

[koft]

This is one funny thread, most of the ppl who replied in this thread except Ostricized are either in d-school or undergrad. Unless you have family in the field it is all hearsay.

 

To address the first initial question, if money is the ultimate motivator, don't pick either meds or dents, you will hate it!! As I have addressed it in this forum, do something you like or you will burn out within 5 years of practice.

 

There are too many variables with owning a practice. a practice with 3 associates and 7 hygienists generates more than a solo practitioner with 1 hygienist. Therefore, no one can give you an average of how much owner makes!!!

 

Yes there are practices sell for millions, however, the cost of building that practice in today money probably cost millions as well, so it might be a wash at the end. You just saved rent over the life of your practice.

[Ostracized]

If the job market is so bad then why are competition into dental school still so high.

 

From what you've been posting on the forums you seem to be giving an negative impression of the job prospective for dentistry.

 

If you do a simple search you can find ads advertise to hire associates at $100/hr and yearly salary of $175,000.(links below respectively)

 

http://www.saskjobs.ca/jsp/joborder/detail.jsp?job_order_id=560564

 

http://archive.jobbank.gc.ca/detail-eng.aspx?OrderNum=7486394&Source=JobPosting

 

I have no idea where you're getting the information from or whether it is true or not but from the students that I have talked to whose parents are dentists and have their practices in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto they have no issue finding patients. Also, it seems very unlikely that a dental practice would have a negative income without looking at their balance sheet. The other thing that you might want to consider is whether the practice owner is willing to tell you what their practice is pulling in. It might be easier to just make it seem like they are losing money.

 

You also have to think that major cities=more people thus more patients but yes there are also more dentists.

small cities have less people thus less patients but also less dentists so everyone comes to you.

 

I work in a poorer area of Toronto so definitely one of the less desirable places to have a practice.

 

The issue for us is that we have a negative growth of 'insurance patients' who pay full price, and they are being replaced only by various welfare patients (20-40 cents on the dollar) or patients with certain discount insurances that pay even less. I'd guess full-price patients make up only 50% of the practice and falling.

 

Yes, I am reasonably privy to the accounting for the office. The owner is a family member which is why I've stayed in Toronto.

 

My only point is that owning a practice is higher risk because you get stuck in an area that, 20 years later, may not be the best place to be (demographically). I'm sure there are practice owners, even in big cities, doing very well. There are also start-ups with 10 patients a week, and everything in between.

[Ostracized]

PS I'm sorry if I'm pessimistic. Let's just call me the devil's advocate. I know dentists can still make bank in this country, but it won't always be the case and you can't simply rely on it being the whole truth.

[koft]

PS I'm sorry if I'm pessimistic. Let's just call me the devil's advocate. I know dentists can still make bank in this country, but it won't always be the case and you can't simply rely on it being the whole truth.

 

100% agree, it depends on many factors that will contribute to your success.

 

I can only speak for a specialist point of view, not a GP, as I never practiced a day as a GP.

 

In big city, competition and big multiple practices make it difficult to grow a new built, I would never suggest anyone to build a startup in a big city, unless you have a deep pocket and a stomach to weather the storm for at least 3+ years.

[ottawaliquid]

I sold/brokered dental practices in the Ottawa area for over a year and we audited and appraised many dental practices.

 

I saw dental practices where the dentist was taking home $70,000/year and others where the dentist was making over a million. The average I would say was between $200 - 400k for a conservative, older dentist working 4.5 days a week in a 3 operatory practice in a decent location or that had been in business for a long time and was established.

 

The $70,000 dentist was only working 3.5 days a week and he was so good to his employees that his hygienists and receptionist were making the same amount as him and he wasn't billing very much nor was the office very productive.

 

The offices that made over a million dollars were usually specialty offices although there was one office that had 2 GP's that grossed almost 2 million/year on a consistent basis.

 

As someone else said its a business so incomes will certainly vary. however the financing and incentives that are available to dentists are amazing. Banks know that few, if any, dental practices fail so they are happy to lend 100% on most dental practice purchase.

 

Try buying a restaurant or any other business and ask the bank for 100% financing and they will laugh at you (while they kick you to the curb).

 

The one mistake I saw many dentists make is that they weren't willing to take advice from people on where/how to best set up or purchase a practice. Many suffered from poor location or practice choices.

[oldie]

I sold/brokered dental practices in the Ottawa area for over a year and we audited and appraised many dental practices.

 

I saw dental practices where the dentist was taking home $70,000/year and others where the dentist was making over a million. The average I would say was between $200 - 400k for a conservative, older dentist working 4.5 days a week in a 3 operatory practice in a decent location or that had been in business for a long time and was established.

 

The $70,000 dentist was only working 3.5 days a week and he was so good to his employees that his hygienists and receptionist were making the same amount as him and he wasn't billing very much nor was the office very productive.

 

The offices that made over a million dollars were usually specialty offices although there was one office that had 2 GP's that grossed almost 2 million/year on a consistent basis.

 

As someone else said its a business so incomes will certainly vary. however the financing and incentives that are available to dentists are amazing. Banks know that few, if any, dental practices fail so they are happy to lend 100% on most dental practice purchase.

 

Try buying a restaurant or any other business and ask the bank for 100% financing and they will laugh at you (while they kick you to the curb).

 

The one mistake I saw many dentists make is that they weren't willing to take advice from people on where/how to best set up or purchase a practice. Many suffered from poor location or practice choices.

 

Quick question relevant to the bolded line above. Those figures represent numbers after overhead but pre-tax right?

[koft]

The take home is pre-income tax deduction. because it is hard to compare after-tax deduction, as it can varies between individuals.

 

As for practice, what he is referring to is gross billings. before overhead deduction because its once again varies greatly... depends on how efficient the practice is running.

[dentss]

I sold/brokered dental practices in the Ottawa area for over a year and we audited and appraised many dental practices.

 

I saw dental practices where the dentist was taking home $70,000/year and others where the dentist was making over a million. The average I would say was between $200 - 400k for a conservative, older dentist working 4.5 days a week in a 3 operatory practice in a decent location or that had been in business for a long time and was established.

 

The $70,000 dentist was only working 3.5 days a week and he was so good to his employees that his hygienists and receptionist were making the same amount as him and he wasn't billing very much nor was the office very productive.

 

The offices that made over a million dollars were usually specialty offices although there was one office that had 2 GP's that grossed almost 2 million/year on a consistent basis.

 

As someone else said its a business so incomes will certainly vary. however the financing and incentives that are available to dentists are amazing. Banks know that few, if any, dental practices fail so they are happy to lend 100% on most dental practice purchase.

 

Try buying a restaurant or any other business and ask the bank for 100% financing and they will laugh at you (while they kick you to the curb).

 

The one mistake I saw many dentists make is that they weren't willing to take advice from people on where/how to best set up or purchase a practice. Many suffered from poor location or practice choices.

 

what advice do brokers have with regards to practice location or choices that cant be determined through own research or through involving a field accountant?

i guess the other question would be whether its worth it to pay artificially overvalued practice price for brokerage involvement?

[ottawaliquid]

Quick question relevant to the bolded line above. Those figures represent numbers after overhead but pre-tax right?

 

Yes good point.. I was referring to their net income before paying personal income taxes

[ottawaliquid]

what advice do brokers have with regards to practice location or choices that cant be determined through own research or through involving a field accountant?

i guess the other question would be whether its worth it to pay artificially overvalued practice price for brokerage involvement?

 

Oh I never said to take advice from brokers per se.

 

In fact brokers just want to sell the practice obviously.

 

I do question your statement about the practice being inflated due to brokerage involvement. The banks finance dental practice based on gross and net income. They know what the practices are worth. And so do the dentists, whether they are selling privately or not.

 

It's like thinking that you're going to get a better deal buying a house that is for sale by owner. Sure there are the odd stories of people stealing a house from some sap selling their house on their own. But on the whole, most sellers who decide to sell on their own and will market the practice accordingly. Dentists are no different.

 

We would often do appraisals of practices and then the dentist decided to sell privately. Often to their own detriment, as most practices (at least when I was selling them) went into multiple offers and were often bid over asking.

 

But the mistakes I was referring to was that I often saw dentists that would opt for a cheap retail location thinking that because they were saving 10 or 20 dollars a square foot but then they would get no new patients. Or they would buy practices without consulting accountants/lawyers that knew the dental business and ended up buying practices that lose money.

 

Its worth it to find good people you trust and pay them accordingly.

 

I also did retail leasing for dentists and this is where my advice was often not followed.

[dentss]

i was talking about it from the perspective of a buyer looking to buy. i guess what you're saying with regards to benefits of brokerage are from a seller's perspective. nonetheless brokerage is facilitating a bidding environment that leads to overvaluation for a buyer. obviously there's a market demand to fuel that bidding environment but just like housing, these practices are selling above their actual worth (as determined by appraisal). not sure if thats good for the profession as a whole and the public.

but i appreciate your insight still.

[Mighty Molar]

But the mistakes I was referring to was that I often saw dentists that would opt for a cheap retail location thinking that because they were saving 10 or 20 dollars a square foot but then they would get no new patients. Or they would buy practices without consulting accountants/lawyers that knew the dental business and ended up buying practices that lose money.

 

Its worth it to find good people you trust and pay them accordingly.

 

I also did retail leasing for dentists and this is where my advice was often not followed.

 

Hello Ottawaliquid,

 

I found your posts really useful, and wonder if you would mind sharing your opinion on the dental market in Ottawa, since I am interested in set up my own clinic there someday

 

Secondly, is buying a commercial building and set up a clinic more profitable (in a long run) than renting out?

[ottawaliquid]

Hello Ottawaliquid,

 

I found your posts really useful, and wonder if you would mind sharing your opinion on the dental market in Ottawa, since I am interested in set up my own clinic there someday

 

Secondly, is buying a commercial building and set up a clinic more profitable (in a long run) than renting out?

 

Ottawa is a pretty good market from what I saw. From speaking with our competitors that sold in Toronto, things are a lot better in Ottawa for dentists. We don't have a dental school and a large portion of the population is middle class and has insurance etc.

 

Like a lot of urban centres however it is starting to get saturated with dentists but not as bad as TO.

 

The best new startups that I saw were dentists who weren't afraid of paying top dollar for good real estate (and generally owning is not the best idea) Leasing real estate in a plaza anchored by a neighbourhood grocery store is worth way more than owning your own real estate.

 

This is one of the bad ideas (In my opinion) that many dentists have when starting a practice from scratch. The best start-ups that we set up were in suburban plazas anchored with a grocery store. These practices received between 20-65 new patients per month. When you consider the revenue earned on, say, 45 new patients per month. The costs of leasing expensive retail space is well worth it.

 

That being said purchasing an existing practice with good clientele in a non-visible location can still be a good go to. The purchaser would just have to ensure that they continue the good work that the previous owner did in order to keep with referral, word-of-mouth new patients in order to maintain the existing client base.

 

So as far as owning your own building with a practice in it... 9 times out of 10 my advice would be to take the money you earn from your dental practice (once it is paid for/established) and invest that in real estate. Don't be too gung-ho on owning your own building with an office in it.

 

All this to say.. In small market centres .. Kingston, Pembroke, Cornwall etc. 9/10 dentists own the building where their practice is. So it really depends on the market you are in. The above advice applies more to larger/urban markets.

[cleanup]

Ottawa is a pretty good market from what I saw. From speaking with our competitors that sold in Toronto, things are a lot better in Ottawa for dentists. We don't have a dental school and a large portion of the population is middle class and has insurance etc.

 

Like a lot of urban centres however it is starting to get saturated with dentists but not as bad as TO.

 

The best new startups that I saw were dentists who weren't afraid of paying top dollar for good real estate (and generally owning is not the best idea) Leasing real estate in a plaza anchored by a neighbourhood grocery store is worth way more than owning your own real estate.

 

This is one of the bad ideas (In my opinion) that many dentists have when starting a practice from scratch. The best start-ups that we set up were in suburban plazas anchored with a grocery store. These practices received between 20-65 new patients per month. When you consider the revenue earned on, say, 45 new patients per month. The costs of leasing expensive retail space is well worth it.

 

That being said purchasing an existing practice with good clientele in a non-visible location can still be a good go to. The purchaser would just have to ensure that they continue the good work that the previous owner did in order to keep with referral, word-of-mouth new patients in order to maintain the existing client base.

 

So as far as owning your own building with a practice in it... 9 times out of 10 my advice would be to take the money you earn from your dental practice (once it is paid for/established) and invest that in real estate. Don't be too gung-ho on owning your own building with an office in it.

 

All this to say.. In small market centres .. Kingston, Pembroke, Cornwall etc. 9/10 dentists own the building where their practice is. So it really depends on the market you are in. The above advice applies more to larger/urban markets.

 

Cheers for being one of the only sources of good advice in this forum. Not to be a wise-ass, but most people in the dental forum are pre-dents with diamonds in their eyes, and even us dental students are too busy sludging through academia to really have much insight into any of this.

[Rlucas]

1 year out of dental school working as an associate in a poorly run and poorly advertised office I made about 110,000.

[Rlucas]

2nd year out of dental school, bought a old run down dental practice that collected 840,000 with 400,000 in profit. One dentists, 1 hygenist, 7 operatories, accepting all insurances and medicaid/medicare dental insurance. End of year 2, new practice collected 960,000, profit after servicing 720,000 loan for practice, cash flow money, and new equipment loans was 420,000 working 48 weeks 28 to 32 hours a week. End of 3rd year out of dental school. Collections 1.15 million, profit 510,000. I also invested 130,000 back into the business buying cbct, implant equipment, updating practice, new dental lights, dental chairs and autoclave. If I had not reinvested this money, I could have cleared 640,000 profit.  4th year projections. Collections of 1.3 to 1.4 million, profit 700,000 to 800,000. 

I cut chair time down by 2 weeks from what the previous owner worked during the first year, cut another 2 weeks of chair time out during 3rd year, will cut another 2 weeks of chair time down during year 4.  As I practice I continue to get faster and the business more efficient. I will continue to cut chairtime down until I see a year that I profit less than the previous year.

[VivaColombia]

14 minutes ago, Rlucas said:

2nd year out of dental school, bought a old run down dental practice that collected 840,000 with 400,000 in profit. One dentists, 1 hygenist, 7 operatories, accepting all insurances and medicaid/medicare dental insurance. End of year 2, new practice collected 960,000, profit after servicing 720,000 loan for practice, cash flow money, and new equipment loans was 420,000 working 48 weeks 28 to 32 hours a week. End of 3rd year out of dental school. Collections 1.15 million, profit 510,000. I also invested 130,000 back into the business buying cbct, implant equipment, updating practice, new dental lights, dental chairs and autoclave. If I had not reinvested this money, I could have cleared 640,000 profit.  4th year projections. Collections of 1.3 to 1.4 million, profit 700,000 to 800,000. 

I cut chair time down by 2 weeks from what the previous owner worked during the first year, cut another 2 weeks of chair time out during 3rd year, will cut another 2 weeks of chair time down during year 4.  As I practice I continue to get faster and the business more efficient. I will continue to cut chairtime down until I see a year that I profit less than the previous year.

Where in the US do you work? Midwest, east coast, south? I’m sure you’re benefitting from the low taxes too