Saba University

[vincent56]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm thinking about studiing medicine abroad, and I heard that is pretty risky to go to the carribeans if you plan to come back to Canada/US after. But someone told me that Saba University was a bit different, and that people who got here have good chance of getting a residency in Canada and US . Is it right or not ?

[Aletheist]

No, your chances are not good. They might be better than at a different Caribbean med school but its not a sure bet. In fact, by the time you graduate the picture will likely be even bleaker.

[Robin Hood]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm thinking about studiing medicine abroad, and I heard that is pretty risky to go to the carribeans if you plan to come back to Canada/US after. But someone told me that Saba University was a bit different, and that people who got here have good chance of getting a residency in Canada and US . Is it right or not ?

 

Hard to predict how the match rate will be four years down the road.

[vincent56]

Ok here is what they say on the Saba website:

 

"Results: Saba residency placements are on par with U.S. medical schools and far above that of both U.S. osteopathic and comparable international medical schools."

 

So I have better chance for matching a residency in the US with Saba than DO schools????

[Mashmetoo]

Ok here is what they say on the Saba website:

 

"Results: Saba residency placements are on par with U.S. medical schools and far above that of both U.S. osteopathic and comparable international medical schools."

 

So I have better chance for matching a residency in the US with Saba than DO schools????

 

Lol.. that's a dirty lie. They are just upset that Canadians who used to go to them are now going to US DO schools.

[leviathan]

Match rate was 93% last year. Not sure how that compares to DO schools but it's certainly comparable to US schools. 

 

Will it be 93% in 4 years time, with the massive increase in US medical school enrollment? We keep asking that, so far it hasn't seemed to affect anything but in 4 years who knows? 

 

The other big elephant in the room, will you pass all your courses and get to the stage where you can even apply for a residency? Lots don't, which means the 93% number has to be taken with a grain of salt. Saba's website stated 81% finish within 4 years, but I'm not sure how many of the other 19% finish later and how many don't finish at all because they get expelled or leave of their own accord.

[JohnGrisham]

Lol.. that's a dirty lie. They are just upset that Canadians who used to go to them are now going to US DO schools.

Agreed.

 

 

They manipulate their statistics, and don't take into account the failure rate of not even getting through all 4 years.

 

 

[vincent56]

Match rate was 93% last year. Not sure how that compares to DO schools but it's certainly comparable to US schools. 

 

Will it be 93% in 4 years time, with the massive increase in US medical school enrollment? We keep asking that, so far it hasn't seemed to affect anything but in 4 years who knows? 

 

The other big elephant in the room, will you pass all your courses and get to the stage where you can even apply for a residency? Lots don't, which means the 93% number has to be taken with a grain of salt. Saba's website stated 81% finish within 4 years, but I'm not sure how many of the other 19% finish later and how many don't finish at all because they get expelled or leave of their own accord.

What ? The match rate of Saba for US residency is 93%?? So it's great no? What does this 93% exactely represent ?

[Simmba]

What ? The match rate of Saba for US residency is 93%?? So it's great no? What does this 93% exactely represent ?

 

Yeah.. I've always been very curious about this. Any insight would be great. 

[vincent56]

Could I have any answer please?

[leviathan]

It's posted on their website. For those who make it far enough to graduate and apply to residency, 93% of them are successful in either the CaRMS or NRMP match. 

[rmorelan]

It's posted on their website. For those who make it far enough to graduate and apply to residency, 93% of them are successful in either the CaRMS or NRMP match. 

 

so if they are not misleading the situation somehow,  if 81% of them finish in 4 years and 93% of those actually get into residency (not stating what type of residency of course, where etc.) then roughly 75% succeed at least initially at that school. 25% just lost at least time and money by extension?

[leviathan]

so if they are not misleading the situation somehow,  if 81% of them finish in 4 years and 93% of those actually get into residency (not stating what type of residency of course, where etc.) then roughly 75% succeed at least initially at that school. 25% just lost at least time and money by extension?

I'm not sure if they include all the people who either quit or get expelled in those calculations, so the actual 25% might be underestimating the amount of failure. I know as an example my class started off with >100 students, and by the time we were heading off to clerkship, there were 51 people in our group. Some people had just fallen behind by a semester or two, but in turn there were upper year students who joined our class as well to balance things out. So clearly a large attrition rate.

[rmorelan]

I'm not sure if they include all the people who either quit or get expelled in those calculations, so the actual 25% might be underestimating the amount of failure. I know as an example my class started off with >100 students, and by the time we were heading off to clerkship, there were 51 people in our group. Some people had just fallen behind by a semester or two, but in turn there were upper year students who joined our class as well to balance things out. So clearly a large attrition rate.

 

well that is A LOT less than 81% finishing in 4 years(?) - Not even close (you lose some from intraclass hold backs but you get some from above on average equalling the same amount).  That is more like 40-50%. I  mean to be honest I surprised how high 81% was considering what I heard. I wonder how all of this is being calculated, and whether there is just some assumptions unstated. Have to get clear answers to evaluate these programs but it is hard when the schools have a vested interest in attracting students for profit.

[leviathan]

I agree, I don't really know how they calculate that number or maybe I'm missing something.

 

That said, I don't think people need to worry as much about the 4 year attrition rate and should focus on the success of those who make it through the program. I feel bad saying it because many of them are friends of mine, but the majority of those people who failed shouldn't have been there to begin with, and they were rejected from the US / Canada for a good reason. Oddly enough, the vast majority of people who failed were from the US, such that by the end of the pre-clerkship phase, there were only a handful of Americans left. I don't know why that might be, maybe the average GPA/MCAT of US students coming was lower because if they had the same stats as the Canadians, they'd be in an American school? Just speculation.

 

Anyway, I think you do have to strike a balance between accepting people who want a second chance and rejecting those who clearly will never succeed in medical school, but that line can be tough to find. 

[ralk]

I agree, I don't really know how they calculate that number or maybe I'm missing something.

 

That said, I don't think people need to worry as much about the 4 year attrition rate and should focus on the success of those who make it through the program. I feel bad saying it because many of them are friends of mine, but the majority of those people who failed shouldn't have been there to begin with, and they were rejected from the US / Canada for a good reason. Oddly enough, the vast majority of people who failed were from the US, such that by the end of the pre-clerkship phase, there were only a handful of Americans left. I don't know why that might be, maybe the average GPA/MCAT of US students coming was lower because if they had the same stats as the Canadians, they'd be in an American school? Just speculation.

 

Anyway, I think you do have to strike a balance between accepting people who want a second chance and rejecting those who clearly will never succeed in medical school, but that line can be tough to find. 

 

The problem is differentiating people who should be there vs people who shouldn't, especially when it's the applicants themselves deciding. The school doesn't care - clearly they accept plenty who shouldn't be there. Students have a vested interest in believing that they're one of the good ones. Be we are all horrible at honest self-evaluation, particularly when it comes to deciding that we might not (yet) be ready for an opportunity.

 

The only people who should ignore that attrition rate are people who can objectively say without question that they've got the stuff to finish the program and become a good doctor - and that is no one. We've all got problems, weakness, faults, that might cause us to fail. Even at Canadian schools, where 99% of us graduate on time, no one should be completely assured that they're not in that 1%. Attrition rate matters because no one going in knows which side of the line they fall on until they're through the program.

[rmorelan]

The problem is differentiating people who should be there vs people who shouldn't, especially when it's the applicants themselves deciding. The school doesn't care - clearly they accept plenty who shouldn't be there. Students have a vested interest in believing that they're one of the good ones. Be we are all horrible at honest self-evaluation, particularly when it comes to deciding that we might not (yet) be ready for an opportunity.

 

The only people who should ignore that attrition rate are people who can objectively say without question that they've got the stuff to finish the program and become a good doctor - and that is no one. We've all got problems, weakness, faults, that might cause us to fail. Even at Canadian schools, where 99% of us graduate on time, no one should be completely assured that they're not in that 1%. Attrition rate matters because no one going in knows which side of the line they fall on until they're through the program.

 

A profit generating business well profit is their focus Still it may just the whole "pursuit of happiness thing" - they cannot be sure you can won't get through, and they probably think that even if they provide a 50% chance you will achieve your dreams then they aren't doing anything wrong. They give you a shot, but there are no guarantees. Almost seems like the stereotypically American approach to things.

 

Having dealt with the 1% from the student politics side of things as it were I can say who that group is will often surprise you (often because the issue in the end is not just academic but rather a combination of things). Medical school is a stressful thing a times.

[Edict]

In a sense the Caribbean schools have a model no different from that of schools like UofT, German and French universities. Easy to get in, hard to graduate. The stakes are much higher with the Caribbean schools and no doubt they are much more ruthless and the numbers are much worse, but it has its own model.

 

Like it or not, there needs to be a cut-off at some point in the system. 

[leviathan]

I think as long as people go into it with the knowledge that many fail and they may be included, then it's okay. If they DO fail out, it's usually in the first few semesters, so they don't end up investing too much money or time into it. Yes it's a very hard life lesson, but at least they were given that second chance to prove themselves. 

 

The important thing to me is, for those who are strong enough to make it through medical school in its entirety, the financial and time investment is MUCH higher, and the stakes much higher. At that point, you really do want some guarantee that your chances of matching will be almost guaranteed. I think the school does meet that requirement very well. 

[ralk]

I think as long as people go into it with the knowledge that many fail and they may be included, then it's okay. If they DO fail out, it's usually in the first few semesters, so they don't end up investing too much money or time into it. Yes it's a very hard life lesson, but at least they were given that second chance to prove themselves. 

 

The important thing to me is, for those who are strong enough to make it through medical school in its entirety, the financial and time investment is MUCH higher, and the stakes much higher. At that point, you really do want some guarantee that your chances of matching will be almost guaranteed. I think the school does meet that requirement very well. 

 

A few things...

 

1) Your definition of "not too much money" must be remarkably different than mine. Let's say someone failed out in the third semester, basically first year by my understanding, then they'd be out $39,000 USD in tuition alone. Is that better than most IMG schools? Sure. Is it good? Absolutely not. For that amount of money, a hopeful pre-med could pay for tuition for a two-year second undergrad degree, prep for and rewrite their MCAT, and do another round of medical school applications here in Canada, taking advantage of the numerous second chances already built into the system we have here.

 

2) SABA doesn't exactly advertise it's shockingly high attrition rate. It's not exactly a secret, but that's not really because of SABA's full disclosure. I still don't think it's acceptable to have such a high rate and claim you're a great school, but even by that low bar, SABA isn't clearing it.

 

3) No one decides to fail (at least I hope not). The only decision a prospective SABA student can make is whether to attend, not whether to graduate. What you're proposing is akin to saying a certain surgical procedure is excellent because 93% of the people who survive the surgery are still alive 5 years later, never mind the 40-50% who never make it off the table. It's great for the people who have already had the surgery, not so great for those deciding whether or not to have it in the future. The point is that someone choosing to go to SABA doesn't have a much better chance of making it back to residency in Canada. Let's take the most favourable interpretation of your numbers: 51% graduating, with 93% successful match rate on graduation, and all Canadian students getting Canadian residencies. That's an overall success rate of about 47%. IMGs overall who graduated in 2014 had a 42% match rate. Furthermore, while numbers for this specific cohort aren't readily available, CSAs match at a much higher rate than non-Canadian IMGs (it's about double the overall IMG success rate). Admittedly, that increased level of success by CSAs gets pulled up schools like SABA that have high attrition/high success rates, but the point stands: going to SABA doesn't appear to increase your chances of getting a Canadian residency by much, if at all.

 

Of IMG schools, SABA's probably one of the better ones. Certainly, it's cheaper than most. And I'll agree that knowing where you stand earlier in the process is advantageous, especially for peace of mind when applying to residencies. But when it comes to the OP's original question: "Is SABA different?" the answer is, not really. Like most IMG schools, they'll take a significant amount of your money for a less-than-parity shot at getting a Canadian residency. I'll give them points for taking only tens of thousands of dollars rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars, but that's about it.

[Edict]

A few things...

 

1) Your definition of "not too much money" must be remarkably different than mine. Let's say someone failed out in the third semester, basically first year by my understanding, then they'd be out $39,000 USD in tuition alone. Is that better than most IMG schools? Sure. Is it good? Absolutely not. For that amount of money, a hopeful pre-med could pay for tuition for a two-year second undergrad degree, prep for and rewrite their MCAT, and do another round of medical school applications here in Canada, taking advantage of the numerous second chances already built into the system we have here.

 

2) SABA doesn't exactly advertise it's shockingly high attrition rate. It's not exactly a secret, but that's not really because of SABA's full disclosure. I still don't think it's acceptable to have such a high rate and claim you're a great school, but even by that low bar, SABA isn't clearing it.

 

3) No one decides to fail (at least I hope not). The only decision a prospective SABA student can make is whether to attend, not whether to graduate. What you're proposing is akin to saying a certain surgical procedure is excellent because 93% of the people who survive the surgery are still alive 5 years later, never mind the 40-50% who never make it off the table. It's great for the people who have already had the surgery, not so great for those deciding whether or not to have it in the future. The point is that someone choosing to go to SABA doesn't have a much better chance of making it back to residency in Canada. Let's take the most favourable interpretation of your numbers: 51% graduating, with 93% successful match rate on graduation, and all Canadian students getting Canadian residencies. That's an overall success rate of about 47%. IMGs overall who graduated in 2014 had a 42% match rate. Furthermore, while numbers for this specific cohort aren't readily available, CSAs match at a much higher rate than non-Canadian IMGs (it's about double the overall IMG success rate). Admittedly, that increased level of success by CSAs gets pulled up schools like SABA that have high attrition/high success rates, but the point stands: going to SABA doesn't appear to increase your chances of getting a Canadian residency by much, if at all.

 

Of IMG schools, SABA's probably one of the better ones. Certainly, it's cheaper than most. And I'll agree that knowing where you stand earlier in the process is advantageous, especially for peace of mind when applying to residencies. But when it comes to the OP's original question: "Is SABA different?" the answer is, not really. Like most IMG schools, they'll take a significant amount of your money for a less-than-parity shot at getting a Canadian residency. I'll give them points for taking only tens of thousands of dollars rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars, but that's about it.

 

I agree with your point, i just need to point out one thing. The 93% match rate I'm pretty sure includes those obtaining US or Canadian residencies. It would be absolutely jaw dropping if 93% of Canadians at SABA who graduated matched to Canada. 

 

I'd be shocked if any Caribbean school had a match rate of over 50% to Canada, it really is that difficult the average I believe for the Caribbean is somewhere around 25%, only to drop in the coming years. 

[ralk]

I agree with your point, i just need to point out one thing. The 93% match rate I'm pretty sure includes those obtaining US or Canadian residencies. It would be absolutely jaw dropping if 93% of Canadians at SABA who graduated matched to Canada. 

 

I'd be shocked if any Caribbean school had a match rate of over 50% to Canada, it really is that difficult the average I believe for the Caribbean is somewhere around 25%, only to drop in the coming years. 

 

Oh, I totally agree, that 93% rate is unlikely to apply to Canadians trying to match to Canada. I made that assumption because I have no better data and it errs against my argument, rather than for it - I'm happy to give SABA the benefit of the doubt, but even with that it doesn't come out too well.

[leviathan]

A few things...

 

1) Your definition of "not too much money" must be remarkably different than mine. Let's say someone failed out in the third semester, basically first year by my understanding, then they'd be out $39,000 USD in tuition alone. Is that better than most IMG schools? Sure. Is it good? Absolutely not. For that amount of money, a hopeful pre-med could pay for tuition for a two-year second undergrad degree, prep for and rewrite their MCAT, and do another round of medical school applications here in Canada, taking advantage of the numerous second chances already built into the system we have here.

 

 

 

 

 

2) SABA doesn't exactly advertise it's shockingly high attrition rate. It's not exactly a secret, but that's not really because of SABA's full disclosure. I still don't think it's acceptable to have such a high rate and claim you're a great school, but even by that low bar, SABA isn't clearing it.

 

3) No one decides to fail (at least I hope not). The only decision a prospective SABA student can make is whether to attend, not whether to graduate. What you're proposing is akin to saying a certain surgical procedure is excellent because 93% of the people who survive the surgery are still alive 5 years later, never mind the 40-50% who never make it off the table.

 

 

 

 

That's an overall success rate of about 47%. IMGs overall who graduated in 2014 had a 42% match rate. Furthermore, while numbers for this specific cohort aren't readily available, CSAs match at a much higher rate than non-Canadian IMGs (it's about double the overall IMG success rate). Admittedly, that increased level of success by CSAs gets pulled up schools like SABA that have high attrition/high success rates, but the point stands: going to SABA doesn't appear to increase your chances of getting a Canadian residency by much, if at all.

 

 

 

1. $39,000 is far less than $250,000. In addition, that would presume you stayed for all 3 semesters of the first year before calling it quits. Most people are gone after 1st or maybe 2nd semester. A lot of people are willing to take a $39,000 risk, not so much a $250,000 risk (assuming you graduate , get your MD, and fail to secure a residency spot). 

 

2. It's likely less to do with the school and more to do with the quality of students. Again, not a good metric to measure yourself against when the school by its nature is taking med school rejects and letting them swim in the deep end. If you think you can float that's your choice. 

 

3. I don't agree with your analogy. You aren't 'dying' if you don't make it through the first year, just have to stop the surgery and go home with your tail between your legs and some scars left behind. Also signing up for that procedure was your own choice and was done knowing the risk ahead of time. Also, that risk is mitigated by certain factors (like being Canadian as a big one). Lastly, again, the more important thing people should care about is success rate if you make it to graduation. Because if you fail at THAT point, it would be like dying in a surgical procedure to lose that much money and time. 

 

I do have to emphasize again though, that 93% statistic is only for people who started 4(?) years ago. Four more years from now we can't project out whether it will stay as optimistic or if it's going to start falling off due to the dropping residency positions in the US.

 

4.First off, the 93% statistic is talking about US+Canadian matches combined. Secondly, you don't know the attrition rate of all the other schools (although probably less, as Saba's program is much more rigorous). 

[ralk]

 

 

1. $39,000 is far less than $250,000. In addition, that would presume you stayed for all 3 semesters of the first year before calling it quits. Most people are gone after 1st or maybe 2nd semester. A lot of people are willing to take a $39,000 risk, not so much a $250,000 risk (assuming you graduate , get your MD, and fail to secure a residency spot). 

 

2. It's likely less to do with the school and more to do with the quality of students. Again, not a good metric to measure yourself against when the school by its nature is taking med school rejects and letting them swim in the deep end. If you think you can float that's your choice. 

 

3. I don't agree with your analogy. You aren't 'dying' if you don't make it through the first year, just have to stop the surgery and go home with your tail between your legs and some scars left behind. Also signing up for that procedure was your own choice and was done knowing the risk ahead of time. Also, that risk is mitigated by certain factors (like being Canadian as a big one). Lastly, again, the more important thing people should care about is success rate if you make it to graduation. Because if you fail at THAT point, it would be like dying in a surgical procedure to lose that much money and time. 

 

I do have to emphasize again though, that 93% statistic is only for people who started 4(?) years ago. Four more years from now we can't project out whether it will stay as optimistic or if it's going to start falling off due to the dropping residency positions in the US.

 

4.First off, the 93% statistic is talking about US+Canadian matches combined. Secondly, you don't know the attrition rate of all the other schools (although probably less, as Saba's program is much more rigorous). 

 

 

1) I agree, $39,000 is better than $250,000 - much better. It's still not a trivial amount to lose. Being better than terrible options doesn't mean SABA's good.

 

2) SABA has complete control over the students they choose and their attrition rate has stayed remarkably constant. They could advertise that attrition rate and give applying students the full picture, but for obvious reasons they don't. They present themselves as a high-chance option to applying students, take at least $13,000 US from each one, then fail out half. The quality of the students they pick is almost certainly a major factor in their rate, but that doesn't absolve SABA of that factor, because it's one they can control.

 

3) I'll repeat myself: no one chooses to fail. If you don't make it through your first year, it's like dying early in the procedure. Sure, the surgeon's spent less time and money was probably saved by not having to go through the whole surgery, but you still end up dead (i.e. you've failed to become a physician in Canada). Matriculating to SABA doesn't increase your chances of becoming a Canadian physician relative to the average IMG school. It might tell you where you stand earlier in the process - and again, I'll agree that's a positive because it reduces the amount of time and money spent - but for an applicant considering SABA, the probability of a positive end result is no different than the typical IMG school.

 

How about a less morbid/inflammatory analogy to better illustrate? Going to SABA is akin to saying a surgical procedure is great because 93% of people are successfully treated if the surgery is able to be completed, never mind the 40-50% of people for whom the surgery has to be aborted mid-procedure.

 

I agree that the 93% figure may change in the next few years, and not just because of pressure in the US - physician unemployment in Canada makes the possibility of cutting back on IMG residencies a distinct possibility. However, since the question posed by the OP is the relative value of going to SABA, it's not going to matter much. Those changes will affect IMGs at all schools, not just those from SABA. It will make the absolute value of studying overseas lower however, including at SABA.

 

4) Are you saying that 93% is higher for Canadian students? Even if you're right, as Medstart108 pointed out, that number will also include Canadians matching to US residencies. Even if 1 in 10 successful Canadians at SABA match to the US - a fairly conservative number - you're below 90% overall match rate to Canada. I'll stand by that figure.

 

You're right, I don't know the attrition rate of all the other schools, but the big ones for CSAs I know to have a much lower attrition rate. This is also the main reason I made a fair number of assumptions in SABA's favour. As mentioned, I included Canadians matching to US residencies for SABA but not for IMGs in general. I didn't adjust the match rate for IMGs to account for higher overall CSA match rates. We can quibble about details for a long time if you'd like to, but the pieces missing from my back-of-the-napkin calculation work just as much against SABA as they do for it. The point stands: when deciding between entering SABA, your chances of ultimately matching to Canada aren't significantly higher than at any other international school - and your chances are slightly worse than a coin flip either way.