Suicide Of A Resident In Montreal

[Karma]

I just found out about the suicide of a Resident in Montreal. I'm in complete shock.

 

Sometimes I feel that we, as future health care professionals, are more attentive to our patients distress and forget to watch out for it among ourselves.

 

My sincere condolences to everyone who knew Émilie Marchand, her boyfriend and her family.

[rmorelan]

it is another reminder of how poor we are even still managing the consequences of all stresses on ourselves. It is really tragic

[Arztin]

Without making this a debate, I just want to point out that she had psychiatric issues. People need to be made aware of signs and symptoms of these problems, not just health care professionals.

 

And it's deeply troubling to hear something like this, as always. I feel really bad about her situation and her family.

 

**If you are a medical student in distress/depression, please get help. There are ressources available at your school for sure**

[Karma]

I think that it's really cynical to dismiss what happened to her by saying that she had psychiatric problems. In fact, she was depressed.

The point of my post was to say that we should be more attentive to people who are having difficulties among ourselves. 

 

I know I made a point to myself to pay even more attention to collegues who are having trouble after hearing about her suicide.

[Arztin]

I think that it's really cynical to dismiss what happened to her by saying that she had psychiatric problems. In fact, she was depressed.

The point of my post was to say that we should be more attentive to people who are having difficulties among ourselves. 

 

I know I made a point to myself to pay even more attention to collegues who are having trouble after hearing about her suicide.

Huh? I only said people in general (not just healthcare professionals) need to be made more aware of these problems + seek help when needed, especially if in distress or psychiatric problem. 

I did not suggest anything else. I did not dismiss what happened because of her psychiatric issues, nor was I being cynical towards a colleague who commited suicide. I honestly think you misunderstood what I wrote and felt offended for no reason.

And yes, I do agree that we should pay attention + take care of colleagues who need help.

[ralk]

Huh? I only said people in general (not just healthcare professionals) need to be made more aware of these problems + seek help when needed, especially if in distress or psychiatric problem. 

I did not suggest anything else. I did not dismiss what happened because of her psychiatric issues, nor was I being cynical towards a colleague who commited suicide. I honestly think you misunderstood what I wrote and felt offended for no reason.

And yes, I do agree that we should pay attention + take care of colleagues who need help.

 

The wording in your first post did sound like you were dismissing her because of her mental state to me as well, though I was pretty sure that wasn't your intention.

 

This event should remind us of how stressful our field is and how that stress can contribute to mental disorders, primarily depression. A lot of people have experienced bouts of depression at some point in their lives and physicians are no exception. I hope if nothing else, this tragedy can encourage us to take better care of ourselves, of each other, and to push for a system that makes doing both of those easier.

[Arztin]

I'm sorry about my wording then. It truly wasn't my intention (nor do I think it).

[武田信玄]

Was her stress caused by her mental illness, or was it the other way around? I often wonder how surgeons can work/survive under the 80+ rule. Sleep deprivation is one of the worst things you can do to your health.

[SkepticalStudent]

Was her suicide caused by her mental illness, or was it the other way around?

Can you clarify? The other way around would be "was her mental illness caused by her suicide?", which wouldn't really be possible, right?

[武田信玄]

Was her mental illness caused by the stress?

[Karma]

I think we will never know... 

 

Either way, residency and med school are very stressful, more so for some people.

 

I read that she just came back from a 4 month leave because of her depression and had to return working full time as before her leave in the ICU. I know that most hospital employees can reintegrate their functions progressively in cases like that, but it's still not allowed for residents. Maybe what happened to her will bring change in that sense...

[rmorelan]

There is some synergy going on in general - stress, constant pressure to achieve, constant evaluation, constant rotation from one area of medicine to another (often every 4 weeks you are on a different team so supports are limited), financial stress, and physical stress particularly from sleep deprivation will all enhance mental illness which in turn makes all the above have a greater impact. A cycle as it were- where it ends or starts is not really a good question.

 

The combination was clearly volatile  - but the point is that the structure of residency and medical school is intensely stressful and always is playing a major role in these sorts of events. We must be very aware of that and watch of issues in ourselves and our colleagues.

[uwopremed]

Her death is an awful story.  But once again, she had other mental health issues underlying what happened.  Despite MDs having higher suicide rates than the general public (which may have as much to do with the types of personalities attracted to medicine as it does with the work load and stress), the VAST majority of MDS never attempt or commit suicide.  1 in 5 may consider it - but even in the general population, a pretty high percentage think about suicide as well (After a breakup, the death of a loved one, the end of a job or business, etc - but never create a real plan).

 

Some people are not cut out for medicine, and quite simply cannot hack it. IT would be best if these people could be weeded out in the application process (where they go in wanting all the prestige, without realizing if they have the character to manage medicine), instead of these tragic stories happening.  I would hope that some of these people realize they can't hack it - and leave medicine before they hurt themselves.

 

Anyways, a tragic story.  But not unique to medicine by any means.  And I certainly don't think training should be made easier (it is already so much easier than it was when my uncles and aunts when through) - some of these new residents seem really really green, and quite frankly, unconfident (as my last visit to the ER at University Hospital a few months ago proved).

[JohnGrisham]

Her death is an awful story.  But once again, she had other mental health issues underlying what happened.  Despite MDs having higher suicide rates than the general public (which may have as much to do with the types of personalities attracted to medicine as it does with the work load and stress), the VAST majority of MDS never attempt or commit suicide.  1 in 5 may consider it - but even in the general population, a pretty high percentage think about suicide as well (After a breakup, the death of a loved one, the end of a job or business, etc - but never create a real plan).

 

Some people are not cut out for medicine, and quite simply cannot hack it. IT would be best if these people could be weeded out in the application process (where they go in wanting all the prestige, without realizing if they have the character to manage medicine), instead of these tragic stories happening.  I would hope that some of these people realize they can't hack it - and leave medicine before they hurt themselves.

 

Anyways, a tragic story.  But not unique to medicine by any means.  And I certainly don't think training should be made easier (it is already so much easier than it was when my uncles and aunts when through) - some of these new residents seem really really green, and quite frankly, unconfident (as my last visit to the ER at University Hospital a few months ago proved).

Thanks for solving all the problems with your kind words.

 

10/10 would read again.

[FutureGP333]

Her death is an awful story.  But once again, she had other mental health issues underlying what happened.  Despite MDs having higher suicide rates than the general public (which may have as much to do with the types of personalities attracted to medicine as it does with the work load and stress), the VAST majority of MDS never attempt or commit suicide.  1 in 5 may consider it - but even in the general population, a pretty high percentage think about suicide as well (After a breakup, the death of a loved one, the end of a job or business, etc - but never create a real plan).

 

Some people are not cut out for medicine, and quite simply cannot hack it. IT would be best if these people could be weeded out in the application process (where they go in wanting all the prestige, without realizing if they have the character to manage medicine), instead of these tragic stories happening.  I would hope that some of these people realize they can't hack it - and leave medicine before they hurt themselves.

 

Anyways, a tragic story.  But not unique to medicine by any means.  And I certainly don't think training should be made easier (it is already so much easier than it was when my uncles and aunts when through) - some of these new residents seem really really green, and quite frankly, unconfident (as my last visit to the ER at University Hospital a few months ago proved).

 

You have a lousy perspective of Mental Illness and I hope you do some serious self-reflection before you actually start your medical training. You have a long way to go in your development to become a compassionate and empathetic physician. 

[Karma]

You have a lousy perspective of Mental Illness and I hope you do some serious self-reflection before you actually start your medical training. You have a long way to go in your development to become a compassionate and empathetic physician. 

 +1!!!!

[oldie]

Her death is an awful story.  But once again, she had other mental health issues underlying what happened.  Despite MDs having higher suicide rates than the general public (which may have as much to do with the types of personalities attracted to medicine as it does with the work load and stress), the VAST majority of MDS never attempt or commit suicide.  1 in 5 may consider it - but even in the general population, a pretty high percentage think about suicide as well (After a breakup, the death of a loved one, the end of a job or business, etc - but never create a real plan).

 

Some people are not cut out for medicine, and quite simply cannot hack it. IT would be best if these people could be weeded out in the application process (where they go in wanting all the prestige, without realizing if they have the character to manage medicine), instead of these tragic stories happening.  I would hope that some of these people realize they can't hack it - and leave medicine before they hurt themselves.

 

Anyways, a tragic story.  But not unique to medicine by any means.  And I certainly don't think training should be made easier (it is already so much easier than it was when my uncles and aunts when through) - some of these new residents seem really really green, and quite frankly, unconfident (as my last visit to the ER at University Hospital a few months ago proved).

 

   

[ellorie]

Her death is an awful story.  But once again, she had other mental health issues underlying what happened.  Despite MDs having higher suicide rates than the general public (which may have as much to do with the types of personalities attracted to medicine as it does with the work load and stress), the VAST majority of MDS never attempt or commit suicide.  1 in 5 may consider it - but even in the general population, a pretty high percentage think about suicide as well (After a breakup, the death of a loved one, the end of a job or business, etc - but never create a real plan).

 

Some people are not cut out for medicine, and quite simply cannot hack it. IT would be best if these people could be weeded out in the application process (where they go in wanting all the prestige, without realizing if they have the character to manage medicine), instead of these tragic stories happening.  I would hope that some of these people realize they can't hack it - and leave medicine before they hurt themselves.

 

Anyways, a tragic story.  But not unique to medicine by any means.  And I certainly don't think training should be made easier (it is already so much easier than it was when my uncles and aunts when through) - some of these new residents seem really really green, and quite frankly, unconfident (as my last visit to the ER at University Hospital a few months ago proved).

 

 

I don't think it's about making training less academically/clinically rigorous ("easier").  It's about having each other's backs and about creating a culture where people can ask for help without so much fear of stigma and negative career consequences.

 

Mental illness is not a character weakness and it doesn't make people unsuited for a career in medicine.  It's exactly that kind of thinking that creates the culture of silence that is literally killing us.

 

I'm also pretty sure that if you haven't been through medical training yourself, you have no idea what you're talking about.  I've nearly finished medical school and I think that I still don't understand completely what I will go through and experience as a resident.  The residents at Western shield the clerks from a LOT, and take on a lot, and I'm sure it's the same in other places.

 

I actually find your arrogance a little bit staggering, even for the internet.

[rmorelan]

I don't think it's about making training less academically/clinically rigorous ("easier").  It's about having each other's backs and about creating a culture where people can ask for help without so much fear of stigma and negative career consequences.

 

Mental illness is not a character weakness and it doesn't make people unsuited for a career in medicine.  It's exactly that kind of thinking that creates the culture of silence that is literally killing us.

 

I'm also pretty sure that if you haven't been through medical training yourself, you have no idea what you're talking about.  I've nearly finished medical school and I think that I still don't understand completely what I will go through and experience as a resident.  The residents at Western shield the clerks from a LOT, and take on a lot, and I'm sure it's the same in other places.

 

I actually find your arrogance a little bit staggering, even for the internet.

 

there is also this concept of making things harder for the sake of making them hard. Really training should always be productively hard if that makes sense - and in older unexamined systems they are often pointlessly difficult which leads to poorer training and poor patient care. You shouldn't be doing thing just because they are hard.

 

Medicine will always be a demanding stressful job, but we don't need to add to that unnecessarily.

[ellorie]

I'd believe that.  From my limited experience there's definitely a culture of "well it was hard for me, so it has to be hard for everyone else because that's how you become a doctor".

 

Plus this sort of exceptionalism that we have that leads us to believe that we have to do things the hard way just to prove that we can or to be able to say that that's what we did.

 

There's almost this bragging that goes on about how people have worked themselves into the ground in various ways, and it's totally seen as impressive and a sign of devotion and dedication rather than just kind of damaging and unnecessary.

[Renin]

Can I point out that people in medicine suffer from other mental health problems too, besides depression.

 

I do think some people are not as cut out for traditional "tough work" vs. their colleagues - but I don't think this is particularly a bad thing to recognize - in an ideal world, it would be possible to have staggered work loads as we need it, but I think that if someone needs time away, their work should not be placed on the backs of their colleagues.

 

Maybe this is where the system can hire in outside help?

[physio2med]

   As someone in Montreal with sources close to the story, I just want to point out (and not taking one side or the other) that the papers published that she was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. One of my profs who knew her from residency told me that she was R3 and had just completed an intensive care rotation where she was doing very poorly, not handling the amount of responsibility required, not taking decisions... essentially being dangerous to have as the person the team and patients relied on. She did receive a bad evaluation, and was found dead following this. And while the person who conducted the evaluation feels terrible, what were they to do? Keep passing someone through the system where they could cause serious harm?

 

   She had already taken a year off for mental-health concerns, and had been receiving assistance through all of the available programs. She was also going through a break-up at the time, which must be even more difficult with BPD so really not a good combination of factors. While I still have compassion for the resident, the situation was far more complex than the headlines would have us believe. The story of 'medicine killed our daughter' was maybe a bit one-sided, and alarmist for all the other parents of residents and medical students. My prof believes she was passed through the system for many years, because no one wanted to be the one to fail the medical student, the clerk, the resident... despite there being serious performance issues early on.

 

Just something to think about.

[entangledphoton]

I happen to know this student from Western that you mentioned, and he is an excellent clinician.  I would love to hear about how you would run a medical school.  You should name it after Stalin and send your "crazies" to Siberia.

[entangledphoton]

I am concerned about your clinical acumen though since you seem to have difficulty discerning fact from fiction.  Most of his post at that time were fictitious, which is why he was not removed from training.  Again, your propensity for destruction before articulation is reminiscent of Stalin.

[Arztin]

Stop revealing personal information on the web uwopremed. You're doing that in 2 threads. Next time, you'll get banned. Over 100 people read this forum at any moment. Please refrain from revealint private information on any Internet forum for you safety and the safety of others, to preserve others' confidentiality.

 

Schools deal with this kind of thing internally because if info leaks out, they get bad press, media attention, and a lot of people that will complain because they just like complaning in general... I'm sure the med school has enough people with sound judgement who already made a decision on this matter.