2Nd Degree Or Caribbean?

[JohnGrisham]

What kind of GPA would you need to get into a DO school?

Depends on the school, i'd say 3.5/30+ would be in the competitive range, but higher is always better. Lower is also accepted here and there, depending on the whole profile. You could have a higher stats and still not get in if you have weak ECs for example, or you could have lower and get in with strong ECs etc. Upward trends play a role, as well as the types of courses can help improve chances etc.

 

Everything you could want to know in a FAQ

 

   http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/41799-applying-to-us-do-schools-faqs-and-short-summary-of-schools/

 

I would add that that summary is a bit out of date - a lot more Canadians applying now, so more competitive than it was before. That is with anything though.  There are also a few more schools that are receptive to Canadian applicants.

[Meridian]

Mashmetoo works to keep it up to date --- if you see anything wildy incorrect maybe PM Mashmetoo.

    http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/41799-applying-to-us-do-schools-faqs-and-short-summary-of-schools/page-44

 

 

I would add that that summary is a bit out of date - a lot more Canadians applying now, so more competitive than it was before. That is with anything though.  There are also a few more schools that are receptive to Canadian applicants.

 

[JohnGrisham]

Mashmetoo works to keep it up to date --- if you see anything wildy incorrect maybe PM Mashmetoo.

    http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/41799-applying-to-us-do-schools-faqs-and-short-summary-of-schools/page-44

 

For sure, nothing wildly out of date - just that some of the discussion revolved around competitiveness etc. (Y)

[Edict]

One thing to note is that, the apparent increase in residency spots in the 2013 cycle at least - wasn't actually an increase, but the mandating that all residency positions be filled through the match or not at all (These 2700 "additional spots" were filled outside the match) - which is what caused that "increase" but rather it was a labelling thing. This is to only account for those specific spots, not all of course.

I'd agree that it won't be a while/if at all IMGs will be pushed out - but the 50% chance of matching at all is still real, as are the quality of sites/ locations - and breadth of specialty choice.

 

You're definitely right, if you want primary care in the US and at any location your given, then an average to above average student will likely match. Not guaranteed though.

 

Anecdotally, even for FM, a friend of mine from ROSS only received 9 interviews, she above average board scores. 

 

Compare this to a US grad who would have gotten significantly more interviews at breadth of more desirable programs & locations.

 

Majority IMGs are matching in NY, NJ, MI.  CT, OH, KY, CA are front runners. So if you have some sort of geographical preference, that is also something to consider.

 

Ultimately it is what you want, your personal situation and how flexible you are. As well as the amount of risk you are willing to take.

 

 

 

 

Match results were good again this year 600 new spots and stable number of IMGs. http://www.nrmp.org/press-release-2015-residency-match-largest-on-record-with-more-than-41000-applicants-vying-for-over-30000-residency-positions-in-4756-programs/

[Slashsev]

The US is not trying to weed out IMG positions. They were predicting that by 2015 there would be the same number of med school grads as us residency spots. Look how that prediction turned out. It was a raging statistic spread throughout the forums as gospel when the facts were wrong (even then the stat was 1st year med students = us residency spots in 2015 which wouldn't be a problem until 2019) and the predictions just didn't come true as us residency spots grew dramatically. 

 

To answer this question I would suggest a 2nd undergrad and movement to a province that has IP, however if you aren't interested in competitive specialties and you just want to be a doctor faster and you also don't mind location (aka basically being forced to live wherever you get for the next 5-10 years of your life) then the Caribbean is a good option as well. 

 

Record number of applications this year according to NRMP, eventually IMGs going to hit a tipping point. You take a 2 year hiatus...plus 4 years of med..your looking at a prediction 6 years down the line, with barely increasing residency spots and doubling of MAJORITY OF US schools class size, i think that is a gamble. OBV Canada is #1- but they do not have the capacity, or want, to support residency programs. US, on the other hand, is trying to establish a self sufficent system and this will only occur at the expense of IMG (read article below). 

 

By the way Canadian students are not IMG, they are NON US CITIZEN IMG- they are a step above indian medical schools. 

 

Aside from YOU i have never heard of anyone make a call on 2015 that all residencys will be filled up- as per internet forums. 

GME programs are supported by Medicare, and that is another mess

 

 

 

 

Also read this: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1306445?viewType=Print&viewClass=Print

[Slashsev]

One thing to note is that, the apparent increase in residency spots in the 2013 cycle at least - wasn't actually an increase, but the mandating that all residency positions be filled through the match or not at all (These 2700 "additional spots" were filled outside the match) - which is what caused that "increase" but rather it was a labelling thing. This is to only account for those specific spots, not all of course.

I'd agree that it won't be a while/if at all IMGs will be pushed out - but the 50% chance of matching at all is still real, as are the quality of sites/ locations - and breadth of specialty choice.

 

You're definitely right, if you want primary care in the US and at any location your given, then an average to above average student will likely match. Not guaranteed though.

 

Anecdotally, even for FM, a friend of mine from ROSS only received 9 interviews, she above average board scores. 

 

Compare this to a US grad who would have gotten significantly more interviews at breadth of more desirable programs & locations.

 

Majority IMGs are matching in NY, NJ, MI.  CT, OH, KY, CA are front runners. So if you have some sort of geographical preference, that is also something to consider.

 

Ultimately it is what you want, your personal situation and how flexible you are. As well as the amount of risk you are willing to take.

 

 

 

^ exactly, this was part of their "all in policy"- which had a huge benefit for IMGs, the calm before the storm-- i think we will go another 2-3 cycles or increase

MD same

DO prob hit close to 84%

IMG hit 50%

 

then IMGs will drop to 30-25%

 

Balanced Budget Act was passed that churns out residency programs at the same level as 1996 (its 2015 now). Obv if 25% of residency spots are going to IMG, why would congress increase more spots? they wouldnt, unless we get a numbers crunch to put pressure. 

All this is prob future talk, maybe 10 years down the line, but the q is

 

do you really wannt match 7-8-9 choice down the line?

do you wanna risk soap/scramble?match into prelims?or maybe not match at all (i have had several friends)

 

 

like i keep saying, IMG was good 5-10 years ago, but all good things must come to an end.

 

By the way Cali cannot take Non US citizen IMGs

 

Medstart, even the Canadian side is getting hit hard and there are talks to close more spots. You can either look at the trends or you can be an arm chair analyst,

[Slashsev]

Match results were good again this year 600 new spots and stable number of IMGs. http://www.nrmp.org/press-release-2015-residency-match-largest-on-record-with-more-than-41000-applicants-vying-for-over-30000-residency-positions-in-4756-programs/

for those that actually clicked the link:

 

2015 Residency Match Largest On Record With More Than 41,000 Applicants Vying For Over 30,000 Residency Positions In 4,756 Programs

[Edict]

Aside from YOU i have never heard of anyone make a call on 2015 that all residencys will be filled up- as per internet forums. 

GME programs are supported by Medicare, and that is another mess

 

I'm telling the truth about fear-mongering, below is a thread where people were saying US residency spots = US grads in 2015. Things may get a little tougher in the future (the increase in US med students has not been as fast as was once predicted, not all schools that were proposed opened up and not all started with such large class sizes) but the match rates for IMGs will probably stay around 40-55% in the next 5 years. 

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sgu-residencies.681262/#post-8911482

 

 

I do agree with Slashsev on the Canada situation however. 

Canada will get harder in the future years however, as the number of Canadian studying medicine abroad has grown a lot over the past few years. The data you see today is from 2009-2011 entrants and essentially if you use that information now for applications in 2019-2020 that just isn't going to be accurate. 

[Slashsev]

I'm telling the truth about fear-mongering, below is a thread where people were saying US residency spots = US grads in 2015. Things may get a little tougher in the future (the increase in US med students has not been as fast as was once predicted, not all schools that were proposed opened up and not all started with such large class sizes) but the match rates for IMGs will probably stay around 40-55% in the next 5 years. 

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/sgu-residencies.681262/#post-8911482

 

 

I do agree with Slashsev on the Canada situation however. 

Canada will get harder in the future years however, as the number of Canadian studying medicine abroad has grown a lot over the past few years. The data you see today is from 2009-2011 entrants and essentially if you use that information now for applications in 2019-2020 that just isn't going to be accurate. 

#1, US schools are growing at its highest rate in history, i believe in that article it said a 30% increase in 5 years

#2 US schools are opening more, incl branch campuses and incl double of class size (which often hide the numbers)

#3 residency programs are growing at a rate predicted for 1996 (we are in 2015)- I dont think they took into account the massive expansion of schools and DOs

#4 IMG match has improved from the "all in"- what we dont know is how many of these are, a. preliminary spots (aka fancy way of saying un matched) b. traditional/transitional year (ie unmatched), how many are matching 6-7-8/soap/scramble to areas/fields they had 0 interest in

#5 NON US IMG match rate was its highest this year at 49% (so half the people matched), 2% increase from years before

#6 chances of canadian acceptance is at an all time low...so next option is pharm sales or going medical outside

 

I have no doubt tthat IMG will stay at 50% for the next 5 years (with most going prelim/trans/trad/9th choice soap)....but eventually its going to outpace supply

 

you start medical school in 2 years...plus 4 for the actual school = 6 years 

 

you face the tail end of the shit storm

 

Iam sorry if internet predictions from a forum of premeds did not meet your expectations for the future of GME education. There is no chance that res spots are going to get all filled in the US

 

The point is, eventually its going to put pressure, 

IMG= 50%, and this drops to 30% (1/3 not match)...then what do you do?

[Edict]

#1, US schools are growing at its highest rate in history, i believe in that article it said a 30% increase in 5 years

#2 US schools are opening more, incl branch campuses and incl double of class size (which often hide the numbers)

#3 residency programs are growing at a rate predicted for 1996 (we are in 2015)- I dont think they took into account the massive expansion of schools and DOs

#4 IMG match has improved from the "all in"- what we dont know is how many of these are, a. preliminary spots (aka fancy way of saying un matched) b. traditional/transitional year (ie unmatched), how many are matching 6-7-8/soap/scramble to areas/fields they had 0 interest in

#5 NON US IMG match rate was its highest this year at 49% (so half the people matched), 2% increase from years before

#6 chances of canadian acceptance is at an all time low...so next option is pharm sales or going medical outside

 

I have no doubt tthat IMG will stay at 50% for the next 5 years (with most going prelim/trans/trad/9th choice soap)....but eventually its going to outpace supply

 

you start medical school in 2 years...plus 4 for the actual school = 6 years 

 

you face the tail end of the shit storm

 

Iam sorry if internet predictions from a forum of premeds did not meet your expectations for the future of GME education. There is no chance that res spots are going to get all filled in the US

 

The point is, eventually its going to put pressure, 

IMG= 50%, and this drops to 30% (1/3 not match)...then what do you do?

 

Even in 6 years we are talking maybe 40% not 30%. I'm talking about for those here and now, applying to Caribbean or wherever, the US is still an option if you are hard working. 

 

10 years down the line i can't say, too much could change. My point is also take fear-mongering with a grain of salt, know who you are, if you are actually on this forum, willing to put your all in, you are already probably in the top 50% of all IMGs, many of those who fail to match back are not the ones taking their time on the forum evaluating their options. There are plenty who go abroad because they couldn't be bothered, because they want the easy road without working hard and those people are going to pave the bottom 25% who drop out and don't match. 

[medhope15]

I say Carib. Know some who were successful. If you don't care about leaving Canada for the next 8 years that is -> you will be going to do residency in the US. The answer to this question will tell you how much you want to be a doc.

[Slashsev]

^ i also know of people who havent matched and are at their 3rd year of "research"

 

If your going to the islands (id do it ASAP) or hold out for DO/USMD. The canadian non trad path is balony -1-2 people posting of success with 100s giving up.

 

At the end of the day do your own research

[medhope15]

^disagree

 

Someone posted somewhere that it is "normal" to be applying 5 times in canada before getting in....jokes! our european counterparts get in after high school, do 6 years total and the dedication weeds them out, they start with a huge class which is cut down slowly. Best way to run the system in my opinion. Quit squeezing students for $$$ to do undergrads which lead to no job (now in Canada they suggest "hey go do another 4 year undergrad and give us more tuition and get another degree that leads to nowhere" and maaaaybe you have a shot at MD again). Instead in Europe they will write an admission exam, get in, then have to prove how much they want it. If they lose interest or don't study they get cut and can go do something else.

[rmorelan]

^disagree

 

Someone posted somewhere that it is "normal" to be applying 5 times in canada before getting in....jokes! our european counterparts get in after high school, do 6 years total and the dedication weeds them out, they start with a huge class which is cut down slowly. Best way to run the system in my opinion. Quit squeezing students for $$$ to do undergrads which lead to no job (now in Canada they suggest "hey go do another 4 year undergrad and give us more tuition and get another degree that leads to nowhere" and maaaaybe you have a shot at MD again). Instead in Europe they will write an admission exam, get in, then have to prove how much they want it. If they lose interest or don't study they get cut and can go do something else.

 

the average number of applications is 2.6 last time I checked

[JohnGrisham]

the average number of applications is 2.6 last time I checked

To be fair though, that number *could* be a bit inflated, when you account for people who apply in 3rd year, when they may not be the best applicant they can be, or even as 4th years with the same sentiment.

 

I know plenty of people who applied just to try their luck for 2-3 years, and eventually got interviews on the 3rd try when they actually were competitive applicants.

 

Plenty of premeds who "don't want to waste time" and apply before they really should be. Sometimes not knowing they aren't competitive, or other times knowing they could improve, but decide to apply anyways to "see what happens".

[rmorelan]

To be fair though, that number *could* be a bit inflated, when you account for people who apply in 3rd year, when they may not be the best applicant they can be, or even as 4th years with the same sentiment.

 

I know plenty of people who applied just to try their luck for 2-3 years, and eventually got interviews on the 3rd try when they actually were competitive applicants.

 

Plenty of premeds who "don't want to waste time" and apply before they really should be. Sometimes not knowing they aren't competitive, or other times knowing they could improve, but decide to apply anyways to "see what happens".

 

Sure! It is also inflated by people that apply endlessly. It is somewhat reduced as some people apply only once and have a backup in place - then go with the backup and basically never apply again because they find that other field rewarding or don't want to endure the stress/think their application is weak.

 

You can dance around the stats quite a bit of course (as you always can). The root point I guess is that really, yeah, this might take more than one cycle and that is normal. One of the brighest docs I know had to apply 4 times. Kickass surgical resident now.

[武田信玄]

^disagree

 

Someone posted somewhere that it is "normal" to be applying 5 times in canada before getting in....jokes! our european counterparts get in after high school, do 6 years total and the dedication weeds them out, they start with a huge class which is cut down slowly. Best way to run the system in my opinion. Quit squeezing students for $$$ to do undergrads which lead to no job (now in Canada they suggest "hey go do another 4 year undergrad and give us more tuition and get another degree that leads to nowhere" and maaaaybe you have a shot at MD again). Instead in Europe they will write an admission exam, get in, then have to prove how much they want it. If they lose interest or don't study they get cut and can go do something else.

NA doctors get paid better than EU doctors on average, so the longer training is somewhat justified. The problem in Canada is not the length of training but the job market, which is the direct result of mixing a capitalist supply curve with a socialist/communist demand curve. Also the result of our government constantly blaming the healthcare professionals for being lazy and wasting the taxpayers' money but having no problem blowing a billion dollars on that oakville plant. But seeing how the same liberals were re-elected last year here in Ontario, I guess it certainly cannot be the government's fault.

[JohnGrisham]

Sure! It is also inflated by people that apply endlessly. It is somewhat reduced as some people apply only once and have a backup in place - then go with the backup and basically never apply again because they find that other field rewarding or don't want to endure the stress/think their application is weak.

 

You can dance around the stats quite a bit of course (as you always can). The root point I guess is that really, yeah, this might take more than one cycle and that is normal. One of the brighest docs I know had to apply 4 times. Kickass surgical resident now.

Oh definitely agreed!  Many of my peers and good friends whom I was fortunate enough to interview with are re-applicants and current medical students elsewhere - and they are some incredible and truly impressive individuals, whom I know will really rock it when given a chance! 

 

My volunteer coordinator at one of the places i've been with for a while was giving me some encouraging words on how it took one of her previous volunteers 5 cycles to eventually get into UBC.  Truly admirable guy, definition of an intellect and care-giver if it had to be pinned onto one individual.

 

[Edict]

To be fair though, that number *could* be a bit inflated, when you account for people who apply in 3rd year, when they may not be the best applicant they can be, or even as 4th years with the same sentiment.

 

I know plenty of people who applied just to try their luck for 2-3 years, and eventually got interviews on the 3rd try when they actually were competitive applicants.

 

Plenty of premeds who "don't want to waste time" and apply before they really should be. Sometimes not knowing they aren't competitive, or other times knowing they could improve, but decide to apply anyways to "see what happens".

 

Its better to apply than not to I would argue, because at least you have experience that you can bring to your 4th year apps. Assuming you are competitive, you don't lose anything by trying. 

[rmorelan]

Its better to apply than not to I would argue, because at least you have experience that you can bring to your 4th year apps. Assuming you are competitive, you don't lose anything by trying. 

 

only risk is the dealing with the emotional impact of possible reject/waitlist - some people have a hard time with that - still overall I agree! Just being forced to create all the application materials really forces you to think and prepare. Would make you stronger in the second round (plus of course you may get in)

[medhope15]

NA doctors get paid better than EU doctors on average, so the longer training is somewhat justified. The problem in Canada is not the length of training but the job market, which is the direct result of mixing a capitalist supply curve with a socialist/communist demand curve. Also the result of our government constantly blaming the healthcare professionals for being lazy and wasting the taxpayers' money but having no problem blowing a billion dollars on that oakville plant. But seeing how the same liberals were re-elected last year here in Ontario, I guess it certainly cannot be the government's fault.

True re the policies.

But in the EU, MD is just another job, as it should be, yes I know EU docs (I spent time in the EU) and yes they have the love and drive for medicine just as much as any person who is passionate it. The applicant pool is somewhat different. You don't have every 18 year old in an undergraduate classroom lift their hand when they ask "who wants to be a doctor?", you don't have people pushing kids (who have no self-awareness of what they really want) into a 'prestigious, financially good career' just for the "MD" title like you do in Canada. So the field is different in some ways. Wherever prestige, power, $$ is involved you will have those people who just want that piece of the pie. An example from these message boards is when students say their backup is law. We all know that in NA, medicine and law are somehow seen as glorious careers (maybe less than they were 20-30 years ago, but still). It is one thing, IMO, to say you love science and the human body and want to 'help people' and heal them, and if MD doesn't work out you go down another route that will lead you to a desire to work in health care. It is another thing to write essays for medicine about how much you love helping and healing, then do a 180 and go into corporate law and somehow justify it as "helping people". At least be honest and say "I want a solid job that pays well and will do anything to get that". Nothing wrong with wanting a good job, but health care needs people who actually "care" and are not there just for the paystub, otherwise you will make horrible health care workers and burden the system. And I wonder how much of the poor spending and waste may be due to people who really just hate their jobs and don't do them well because they got into something for the wrong reasons.

 

To go back to your statement about the capitalist vs socialist system, I agree to an extent. The system is in a way broken. So many things I could debate here. Also boils down to personal (public's) responsibility and education level. Lots of people inappropriately access health care. Over subspecialization  in medicine also causes backlogs...go see this specialist, then this specialist, then that one...no clear answers, terrible communication. There is so much to fix and it won't happen easily. 

[JohnGrisham]

Its better to apply than not to I would argue, because at least you have experience that you can bring to your 4th year apps. Assuming you are competitive, you don't lose anything by trying. 

I would agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" attempts in my eyes for statistical purposes.. It's like people who apply but are below cut-offs - they throw the statistics off (but at least those who apply below cut-offs are classified as "disqualified" on most school statistics)

[qszwdxefc]

This is my first time checking this thread and I know that this is sort of off-topic at this point, but I just want to add a few things regarding US schools.

 

US schools look at your entire application holistically. They will see all your marks from all your degrees, but things like grade trends over the years play a much bigger role in the states than they do in Canada. This will definitely work to your benefit especially if you also have other meaningful experiences.

 

US schools are also by no means easy to gain admission to since the applicant pools are huge and at the end of the day we are international students (or out of state at a few schools). I actually got more interviews in Canada than in the US.

[3change]

...

[JohnGrisham]

How would a CMG compare to an AMG when competing for competitive American residencies?

A CMG vs a true AMG(US citizen) or a AMG who is a Canadian citizen? Would likely get less interviews than AMGs(Visa issues), but would not be a deal breaker by any means on matching, or matching to good places. 

 

Too many variables that depend on the individual applicants.