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Jumanji22

2Nd Degree Or Caribbean?

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Sorry for so many threads, but I'm entering a very important time in my schooling. As I said in another thread, my GPA is 3.14 and I have a 32 MCAT (12 VR/11BS/9PS) which makes me ineligible for NA schools and even a master's won't help. I can either do a second degree to bump my marks or go to a top Caribbean school (SGU, Ross etc.). Obviously it is much more difficult to find a job in Canada in a competitive field later on with Caribbean schools, but I'd save 2-3 years. Money is not a problem for me, my family is quite affluent (not trying to be an ass or brag, just stating the situation) and will support me financially without question.   

 

EDIT: Also, how are second degrees generally looked at in the U.S.? I know each school is unique, but what about in general?

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It's a tough call. I guess it depends on whether or not you're okay with the possibility of not coming back to Canada to practice. 

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably do the second degree and then apply to as many places in Canada as you can (since money isn't an issue for you). I'm not an expert on US schools, but I think most of them look at all of the courses you've ever taken. 

 

I realize that I'm probably not helping much. Hopefully someone else out there has better advice.  :)

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What would I do in this situation: caribbean and practice in the US since you don't have to worry about debts or anything. You can also try Australia, Ireland or UK. Good Luck! Before all that, try to get in US schools (allopathy or osteopathic medicine). Osteopathy schools are more relaxed with their requirements and you can end up with an allopathy residency once you graduate with an MD depending on ur USMLE score. 

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I think a second degree is better...

 

If you go to a caribbean school, you are basically committing to not working in Canada in my opinion. Will you be able to not live in the same country as your family for many years to come?  

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Thanks for the replies. But why are so many people saying that there is almost no chance of practicing in Canada if you are a Caribbean grad? I know of a few people who have returned to practice here from the Caribbean. I know the residency matching is only about 1/5. But I know of people who did their residency in the States and returned to practice here. My father is a doctor and his hospital just hired a grad from SGU. My father's colleague's two sons both attend SGU as well and hope to return.

 

Anyway, I'm quite patriotic and love Canadian culture (plus there is no hockey on ESPN in the states haha) so staying here is a priority. 

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I had a similar choice to make as you a little while back and my GPA was even a bit lower (2.85). After weighing all my choices and the roads that each will lead, I decide to do a 2nd degree which would take me 2 years. I though this would be a great time to further build my application, work on E.C's, and get more research experience and  develop myself further and then apply to certain schools to that will look exclusively at my 2nd degree for GPA.

 

My logic was like this: I could take a huge risk and go to Caribbean and best case scenario end up in FM or a more realistic scenario, come back with 200k in debt and be working as a lab coordinator or something because I couldn't find a position anywhere ( I know people in this situation). OR, I could do a 2nd degree and work on all the things mentioned above and if I actually get into a medical school in Canada, I can rest easy knowing I will find a job no problem. I just finished my first semester with a 3.84 gpa and plan to continue like that.

Thats my opinion.

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^there are tons of people on this route now, with success not anywhere near 100%, at the same time your losing another 2-4-5 years, and need mcat retakes, and burning out and losing faith in the system, as well as your drive- where many just give up and take a crappy sales job in a crappy biotech company.

 

do some research, look at US DO schools, look at US MD schools, and notice the merger of residency and probably down the road the entire degree into 1.

 

the Caribbean is now a limited window option, in the next 2-4 years, going to caribbean, you will b without a job 100%! based on residency statistics and DO/MD school increases- you cannot waste time here

 

you can go the 2-4-5 year canada option

or put some effort for a US degree

 

if i could do it over again, i would have gone ASAP to ANY medical school, i have friends who went caribbean and are practicing and have families and a salary, eventually life catches up and at the end of the day, this is just another job 

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Not Getting a residency in Canada and not practicing in Canada are two different things.

 

People, stop posting of things you don't know of. If you do a us residency you can generally(some additional things may be reqd) come back and be eligible to work in Canada no problem.

 

Getting a residency itself in Canada as an IMG is statistically very small and unlikely.

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I know next to nothing about the Caribbean school route, aside from the fact that Canadians who take that route face pretty significant obstacles returning to Canada for residency (something like 5% of Caribbean med school grads are matched for residency in Canada?). Do students who graduate from Caribbean med schools manage to find residencies elsewhere (i.e., countries outside of North America)? I don't really care to stay in Canada, but had previously ruled out Caribbean schools because 1) the cost, eek, and 2) the concerns over finding a place to do residency.

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Agreed x1000

I'm not promoting for or against the carribean route but it's getting really annoying reading posts full of misinformation all over this site about that route. Most carrib grads end up with a U.S. residency and this ultimately will allow you to come back to Canada if you want, and a lot of people actually choose to stay down there after all is said and done.

 

Not Getting a residency in Canada and not practicing in Canada are two different things.

 

People, stop posting of things you don't know of. If you do a us residency you can generally(some additional things may be reqd) come back and be eligible to work in Canada no problem.

 

Getting a residency itself in Canada as an IMG is statistically very small and unlikely.

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Totally agree with this. The DO route is legit especially after the merger. Edit: if you can afford the U.S. tuition, especially with the currency difference right now!

^there are tons of people on this route now, with success not anywhere near 100%, at the same time your losing another 2-4-5 years, and need mcat retakes, and burning out and losing faith in the system, as well as your drive- where many just give up and take a crappy sales job in a crappy biotech company.

 

do some research, look at US DO schools, look at US MD schools, and notice the merger of residency and probably down the road the entire degree into 1.

 

the Caribbean is now a limited window option, in the next 2-4 years, going to caribbean, you will b without a job 100%! based on residency statistics and DO/MD school increases- you cannot waste time here

 

you can go the 2-4-5 year canada option

or put some effort for a US degree

 

if i could do it over again, i would have gone ASAP to ANY medical school, i have friends who went caribbean and are practicing and have families and a salary, eventually life catches up and at the end of the day, this is just another job

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Agreed x1000

I'm not promoting for or against the carribean route but it's getting really annoying reading posts full of misinformation all over this site about that route. Most carrib grads end up with a U.S. residency and this ultimately will allow you to come back to Canada if you want, and a lot of people actually choose to stay down there after all is said and done.

 

Agreed, except the part of most Carib grads getting a U.S. residency. Many are not even getting a U.S. residency. Us Md and DO grads are pushing out Carrib grads, so it's not safe anymore and hasn't been so for the last few years.

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Why hasn't anyone mentioned the option of  of applying to Canadian schools that focus on your best/last two years? Ie. UWO and Queens..?

 

Plus, you can do a special year for both schools to bump up your final two years or best two.

 

Anyway, UWO has a course requirement 3/5 must be senior level courses. 

 

I feel a second degree would be best or if you have these requirements and your final two years are 3.7+ (or maybe if you do a special year and you can achieve that gpa). 

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if u are interested in DO medical education, there are threads in this forum, sdn, fb group, and website devoted to Canadian DOs. Its not recommended posting on premed101 about DO as it looks like spam, vs actually presenting information.

 

I also recommend you put in 2 seconds of effort and using a search engile called google, i know shocking

 

"Anyone have experience/knowledge about Pathway 3 with a DO from the states and postgraduate training returning to Canada to practice as an MD?

 

http://www.cpso.on.c...-degree-or-doct"

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I'm following some of the above-mentioned Caribbean med schools and they often have students matching in Canada [recently I found out that some match in internal of UofT]. They have quite impressive stats as International Students. Moreover we have a shortage of doctors in both Canada and the US. If (1) you are of an affluent background (2) time is an issue for you (3) you beleive that you won't upgrade your grades enough with starting a 2nd degree / masters. I'd say if you'd answer yes to all of the above I'd advise you to go to the Caribbean. 

 

You seem like someone who really wants to be a doctor. Follow your passion. That's what I'd do. 

 

What kind of medicine do you want to practice? Is there a specific location where you want to practice? What are some of your long term goals with medicine?

 

See, it's important to ask these questions now, and with that chose what medical school to apply to [or not]. 

 

Best of luck.

 

Now, I'm gonna go ask myself some questions. 

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I'm following some of the above-mentioned Caribbean med schools and they often have students matching in Canada [recently I found out that some match in internal of UofT]. They have quite impressive stats as International Students. Moreover we have a shortage of doctors in both Canada and the US. If (1) you are of an affluent background (2) time is an issue for you (3) you beleive that you won't upgrade your grades enough with starting a 2nd degree / masters. I'd say if you'd answer yes to all of the above I'd advise you to go to the Caribbean. 

 

You seem like someone who really wants to be a doctor. Follow your passion. That's what I'd do. 

 

What kind of medicine do you want to practice? Is there a specific location where you want to practice? What are some of your long term goals with medicine?

 

See, it's important to ask these questions now, and with that chose what medical school to apply to [or not]. 

 

Best of luck.

 

Now, I'm gonna go ask myself some questions.

 

 

 

People need to stop misinformation. Shortage of doctors of not, has NO BEARING on the decision to go abroad for medical education. Residency is the bottle neck point, and you aren't garuanteed a residency when you go abroad.

 

Yes people still match, but what you dont see are all the ones that DONT. In Canada, there are set seats for IMGs in the first round. It is not impressive that someone matched to Internal at UofT..because someone had to, it's there for IMGs. -.-

 

Time shouldn't be an issue for anyone, you have your whole life to work. This is a false reason that is selfimposed.

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So we've been having talks from residency program directors and basically for every specialty ~200 cmgs apply for the ~6 spots at our school, but they say that its the same 200 applying everywhere so if you want to do specialty X and don't care where you do it in Canada, you can get matched. Then they say they had ~250 IMGs apply for the 1 IMG spot... so yes someone will match but its a lot more competitive.

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So we've been having talks from residency program directors and basically for every specialty ~200 cmgs apply for the ~6 spots at our school, but they say that its the same 200 applying everywhere so if you want to do specialty X and don't care where you do it in Canada, you can get matched. Then they say they had ~250 IMGs apply for the 1 IMG spot... so yes someone will match but its a lot more competitive.

Definitely speaks to the magnitude of competition for IMGs - its really a luck of the draw. 

 

 

 

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go DO, 

in the nxt couple of years the US is trying to weed out all IMG positions, you dont wanna be left holding the bag, it was a decent route back in the day, but those doors are closed/will be closed

 

AOA(do)/acgme(MD) MERger is going to add more pressure on IMG spots

 

The US is not trying to weed out IMG positions. They were predicting that by 2015 there would be the same number of med school grads as us residency spots. Look how that prediction turned out. It was a raging statistic spread throughout the forums as gospel when the facts were wrong (even then the stat was 1st year med students = us residency spots in 2015 which wouldn't be a problem until 2019) and the predictions just didn't come true as us residency spots grew dramatically. 

 

To answer this question I would suggest a 2nd undergrad and movement to a province that has IP, however if you aren't interested in competitive specialties and you just want to be a doctor faster and you also don't mind location (aka basically being forced to live wherever you get for the next 5-10 years of your life) then the Caribbean is a good option as well. 

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The US is not trying to weed out IMG positions. They were predicting that by 2015 there would be the same number of med school grads as us residency spots. Look how that prediction turned out. It was a raging statistic spread throughout the forums as gospel when the facts were wrong (even then the stat was 1st year med students = us residency spots in 2015 which wouldn't be a problem until 2019) and the predictions just didn't come true as us residency spots grew dramatically. 

 

To answer this question I would suggest a 2nd undergrad and movement to a province that has IP, however if you aren't interested in competitive specialties and you just want to be a doctor faster and you also don't mind location (aka basically being forced to live wherever you get for the next 5-10 years of your life) then the Caribbean is a good option as well. 

One thing to note is that, the apparent increase in residency spots in the 2013 cycle at least - wasn't actually an increase, but the mandating that all residency positions be filled through the match or not at all (These 2700 "additional spots" were filled outside the match) - which is what caused that "increase" but rather it was a labelling thing. This is to only account for those specific spots, not all of course.

I'd agree that it won't be a while/if at all IMGs will be pushed out - but the 50% chance of matching at all is still real, as are the quality of sites/ locations - and breadth of specialty choice.

 

You're definitely right, if you want primary care in the US and at any location your given, then an average to above average student will likely match. Not guaranteed though.

 

Anecdotally, even for FM, a friend of mine from ROSS only received 9 interviews, she above average board scores. 

 

Compare this to a US grad who would have gotten significantly more interviews at breadth of more desirable programs & locations.

 

Majority IMGs are matching in NY, NJ, MI.  CT, OH, KY, CA are front runners. So if you have some sort of geographical preference, that is also something to consider.

 

Ultimately it is what you want, your personal situation and how flexible you are. As well as the amount of risk you are willing to take.

 

 

 

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