Medical School Abroad Vs Physiotherapy In Canada

[healthnut]

Struggling to decide whether to accept an offer from an Irish medical school. I set my sights on medicine three years ago and have been positioning myself ever since to get in, however didn't make the Canadian school cut-offs and I never applied to the States. Although I know I would love to be a doctor, would be good at it and I would find it extremely rewarding; I am worried that this is not enough to overcome the uncertainty of training abroad and returning to canada for my residency (Ideally Ontario for family medicine) and the return-of-service agreements (being stuck in a particular place for several years) that come with IMG training. 

 

My alternative option is to apply to physiotherapy in Ontario, as I pretty confident my background (Kinesiology, Sporting experience) and stats could get me in next year, giving me three years until I am a practicing physio. 

 

So its either 4 years to become a doc + 2-3 FM residencies or 3 years to become a physio. I don't want to wake up at 35 and regret going into physiotherapy and giving up this chance at studying medicine but I also am worried about the timeline of having a family, marriage, being far away from home for 4-8 years.

 

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

Is PT 3 years in ON? It is 2 years in BC.

You could always apply to med after doing PT and practicing for a few years.

[healthnut]

No PT is 2 years in Ontario too but it would be 3 years from now as I did not apply in this application cycle so one more year of working and then would be in school fall 2016 for PT. 

 

It's more about timeline of having me having family and getting medical training over with before all of that, I am over 25 so I don't have the time to do PT and go back and do medicine after. For me it's med now, or never, I think.

[JohnGrisham]

No PT is 2 years in Ontario too but it would be 3 years from now as I did not apply in this application cycle so one more year of working and then would be in school fall 2016 for PT. 

 

It's more about timeline of having me having family and getting medical training over with before all of that, I am over 25 so I don't have the time to do PT and go back and do medicine after. For me it's med now, or never, I think.

Well, its never really too late to do med, but I can understand that.

 

Going abroad, your most likely option will be doing residency in the US, or maybe in Canada but perhaps even then not in your home province, add the ROS agreements and such to that mix.

 

 

[JohnGrisham]

Also, don't forget going down the med path will also put you behind financially then PT during the 30's etc.


Is there no hope at all for Canada or the US?

[healthnut]

Yeah MCAT score is not great (28) so US is out and Canada would only be possible if I picked up an moved to another province. I would have been eligible for an in province interview at UBC based on my composite score as an OOP, but I think it's such a risk to pick up and move there, get residency and try applying for a few years...so its not something I'm willing to do.

 

I guess I am not 110% sure that I wouldn't be happy with some alternative path like PT, so going to Ireland for a risky/uncertain future seems a bit hard to accept.

[JohnGrisham]

Yeah MCAT score is not great (28) so US is out and Canada would only be possible if I picked up an moved to another province. I would have been eligible for an in province interview at UBC based on my composite score as an OOP, but I think it's such a risk to pick up and move there, get residency and try applying for a few years...so its not something I'm willing to do.

 

I guess I am not 110% sure that I wouldn't be happy with some alternative path like PT, so going to Ireland for a risky/uncertain future seems a bit hard to accept.

Are you willing to retake the MCAT? What about your GPA?

 

The 28(If balanced) would be just good enough to get into a USDO school, if your GPA is strong enough and your ECs are decent(As it seems they are, if you would have gotten an interview at UBC in the IP class). At least that way you will be less stressed about not getting a US residency down the line in a desirable location. A US grad gets a lot more leeway on things like board scores, which can really hamper you as an IMG if you make a throw them.

 

That's just my 2 cents, since it seems you are worried about the risk of going to Ireland.

 

But at the same time, you would be 6 months behind

 

 

[redhawk]

I'm facing a similar situation I have been accepted to medical school in Australia as well  applied to pharmacy. I weighed the pros and cons and decided to persure medicine in Australia. if i am diligent, informed, work hard, and do the right things I should match in Australia,Canada, or the US. Everyone has a different situation. I wish you all the best I know how difficult it is on you and your family.

 

Cheers, 

[Edict]

I think you should take medicine. Do you have an offer in hand? If you do just go for it. I haven't done physio but for me medicine and physio are very different fields. I just couldn't do physio. 

 

Medicine is intellectually stimulating, it takes on the most responsibility of all health care practitioners, it advances healthcare. The trouble of course is getting a good step 1 score and matching back to either the US or Canada. However, from what i've read it seems as if people who want Irish intern spots get them, and it may be possible to stay although i'm not too sure on that.

 

Either way, because you want FM, it is easier for you, its not too late but you do have to understand that you can't be too picky with where you do residency etc, you'll probably move around a lot over the next 6-7 years of your life. 

 

At the end of the day medicine has to be your dream, it has to drive you if you want to study abroad. For me this is the case and I just couldn't take physio. If not, it might be better to consider physio. 

[JohnGrisham]

My only additional comment is, if it is only the MCAT that is holding you back from getting into Canada/US. Buck up and retake it.

It's nice to think "but i will work hard and give it my all when i go abroad" - but i you can't even commit to work hard and re-do the MCAT, how do you plan on surviving(and doing above average) on the many board exams you will have to do in addition to your abroad curriculum?

The MCAT is nothing compared to any of the board exams.  A "year loss" to retake the MCAT, or take an extra undergrad class or two for US pre-reqs, is easy peasy relative to the alternative.


Here is an example: In 2012(or 2013?), the average (or was it cut-off?) on the MCCEE exam for an interview invite in Family Medicine in ONTARIO, was 426.

The MCCEE mean score is a 271, with a SD of 50. So 2 SD's above the mean is 371. Do the math on that. That of course is just one province(which has a significant amount of IMG seats), one specialty and one cycle - so things are variable and this is a loose/vague example.. 

I'll have to get a CaRMS source link when I get time. 

 

[redhawk]

It's not just as simple as taking a pre-reqs or repeating the mcat. If that's all it took it would be an easy decision to do US med. It's the fact you waste a year for a chance when you have a solid offer in front of you. Life changes and you might lose that opportunity in the next couple of years your applying to the US/Canada. I graduated in 2013 and completed an additional year to see what opportunities present themselves and while i did improve my GPA, I realized that if i had left to do international med (Australia/ Ireland) right now i would be completing second year and entering third year, instead I don't have that opportunity.I have friends who went took this path and even did masters 3.9+ GPA solid mcat scores, and they didn't get accepted,I have friends who went to the Caribbeans and now doing residency in decent US schools, and I also have friends who are now considering a second undergrad. From these experiences, I can tell you there is no clear decision. If you want to do residency in canada, and that is your end goal you chances are slim I would not bet 300K on it. However, if you are more open in terms of where and what you practice, your chances are a lot higher, and I've made the decision it's worth the risk. Be very careful with what you read. There are many  scare scaremongers that tell you going international is doom. There are people who tell you your almost guaranteed a residency. Both are false and there is no easy answer. Also every year you spend does matter, it's a loss of income, very stressful years, and your not guaranteed admissions by any means either. IMO lets say your chance of residency are 60% Ireland, 50% USA and 30%Canada (these are very conservative estimates assuming your competent) are much better than spending an additional 2-4 years of undergrad, and applying with 4k applicants for 150 spots ( FOR ADMISSIONS YOUR NOT EVEN APPLYING FOR THE JOB). Again this is my perspective.

 

Cheers,

 

Sorry for poor grammar, trying to improve my writing.  

[JohnGrisham]

It's not just as simple as taking a pre-reqs or repeating the mcat. If that's all it took it would be an easy decision to do US med. It's the fact you waste a year for a chance when you have a solid offer in front of you. Life changes and you might lose that opportunity in the next couple of years your applying to the US/Canada. I graduated in 2013 and completed an additional year to see what opportunities present themselves and while i did improve my GPA, I realized that if i had left to do international med (Australia/ Ireland) right now i would be completing second year and entering third year, instead I don't have that opportunity.I have friends who went took this path and even did masters 3.9+ GPA solid mcat scores, and they didn't get accepted,I have friends who went to the Caribbeans and now doing residency in decent US schools, and I also have friends who are now considering a second undergrad. From these experiences, I can tell you there is no clear decision. If you want to do residency in canada, and that is your end goal you chances are slim I would not bet 300K on it. However, if you are more open in terms of where and what you practice, your chances are a lot higher, and I've made the decision it's worth the risk. Be very careful with what you read. There are many  scare scaremongers that tell you going international is doom. There are people who tell you your almost guaranteed a residency. Both are false and there is no easy answer. Also every year you spend does matter, it's a loss of income, very stressful years, and your not guaranteed admissions by any means either. IMO lets say your chance of residency are 60% Ireland, 50% USA and 30%Canada (these are very conservative estimates assuming your competent) are much better than spending an additional 2-4 years of undergrad, and applying with 4k applicants for 150 spots ( FOR ADMISSIONS YOUR NOT EVEN APPLYING FOR THE JOB). Again this is my perspective.

 

Cheers,

 

Sorry for poor grammar, trying to improve my writing.  

Sorry, block of text...

 

I was talking to healthnut, and it seems that exactly is their situation: Maybe retaking the mcat, and taking an extra class or two for the US.

 

My point was, if its a relatively simple fix, it is worth it to try and get into a US school than go abroad.

 

 

[healthnut]

My only additional comment is, if it is only the MCAT that is holding you back from getting into Canada/US. Buck up and retake it.

 

It's nice to think "but i will work hard and give it my all when i go abroad" - but i you can't even commit to work hard and re-do the MCAT, how do you plan on surviving(and doing above average) on the many board exams you will have to do in addition to your abroad curriculum?

 

The MCAT is nothing compared to any of the board exams.  A "year loss" to retake the MCAT, or take an extra undergrad class or two for US pre-reqs, is easy peasy relative to the alternative.

 

 

Here is an example: In 2012(or 2013?), the average (or was it cut-off?) on the MCCEE exam for an interview invite in Family Medicine in ONTARIO, was 426.

 

The MCCEE mean score is a 271, with a SD of 50. So 2 SD's above the mean is 371. Do the math on that. That of course is just one province(which has a significant amount of IMG seats), one specialty and one cycle - so things are variable and this is a loose/vague example.. 

 

I'll have to get a CaRMS source link when I get time. 

 

 

Yeah, I wrote the MCAT twice and got 28 both times, (8,8,12) and (9,9,10), and I didn't consider writing the 2015 MCAT because of all the changes. But I suppose that is something I should consider, I just realistically don't know my shot is at the US. Cgpa on AMCAS is ~3.7.  Have a MSc, lots of EC's including varsity sport, research and many publications and abstracts.

 

Those are definitely scary stats with the MCCEE scores, so Ontario will be hard for FM. 

 

Its hard to say no to an offer thats in hand.

[JohnGrisham]

Yeah, I wrote the MCAT twice and got 28 both times, (8,8,12) and (9,9,10), and I didn't consider writing the 2015 MCAT because of all the changes. But I suppose that is something I should consider, I just realistically don't know my shot is at the US. Cgpa on AMCAS is ~3.7.  Have a MSc, lots of EC's including varsity sport, research and many publications and abstracts.

 

Those are definitely scary stats with the MCCEE scores, so Ontario will be hard for FM. 

 

Its hard to say no to an offer thats in hand.

With a 3.7 AMCAS, MSc and strong ECs and the okayish MCAT - you would have a very strong chance at USDO schools. USMD would require a stronger mcat retake.

 

It's up to you if you want to lose that 1 year or not, for the significantly better odds of matching/flexibility as a AMG in the US.  

 

I'd imagine you don't want to wait any longer after possibly already doing 4 years BSc and then 2yrs MSc.. or more time, but if you're still under 25, that 1 year isn't going to make a difference in the long run.

 

 

[Edict]

My only additional comment is, if it is only the MCAT that is holding you back from getting into Canada/US. Buck up and retake it.

 

It's nice to think "but i will work hard and give it my all when i go abroad" - but i you can't even commit to work hard and re-do the MCAT, how do you plan on surviving(and doing above average) on the many board exams you will have to do in addition to your abroad curriculum?

 

The MCAT is nothing compared to any of the board exams.  A "year loss" to retake the MCAT, or take an extra undergrad class or two for US pre-reqs, is easy peasy relative to the alternative.

 

 

Here is an example: In 2012(or 2013?), the average (or was it cut-off?) on the MCCEE exam for an interview invite in Family Medicine in ONTARIO, was 426.

 

The MCCEE mean score is a 271, with a SD of 50. So 2 SD's above the mean is 371. Do the math on that. That of course is just one province(which has a significant amount of IMG seats), one specialty and one cycle - so things are variable and this is a loose/vague example.. 

 

I'll have to get a CaRMS source link when I get time. 

 

 

 

Gohan I'm pretty sure the cutoff was not MCCEE probably the MCCQE pt 1 because the MCCQE pt 1 has a higher score range than MCCEE. Also, even if you think about it that is 3 SD above the mean which is 99.7% which means basically no one met the cutoff which is impossible. 

[JohnGrisham]

It was mccee that I read, but perhaps you're right it was qe1 that they meant.I will have to find a source. Talking to current students its typical to want to be above 2sd(~350+) to be in the safe range.. I think that year in particular was super competitive on ON FM? The more likely scenario is that they were refereing tk qe1...but that wouldnt make sense since not everyone will be applying with qe1 right? Wish I could find the source to not talk out of my ass haha.

Will look for a source though, I think it was @leviathan that posted that.


Edit 1: here is an older link that shows some ranges of matched students 'Selecting IMGs for Residency Programs: Myths and Shibboleths" (Google it if not open)

2011: https://www.scribd.com/doc/173858917/selecting-imgs-for-residency-programs-2-pdf 
---> Matched CSA average MCCEE score 343

2013: http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014-ICRE-workshop-SB-presentation-EN.pdf 
--> Matched CSA average MCCEE score 368
--> 287/911 CSA's matched CaRMS 
 

 

Edit2: here is a link where someone claims ON FM average MCCEE score was 426 and NAC 81, but I don't see the real source they refer to anymore.
http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/75519-2nd-iteration-chances-for-img/

However, here is Mac's FM page: 

https://fammedmcmaster.ca/residency-applicants/pgy1/img-application-information

It says NAC 81 or above for interview invite, so it is possible that before it used to state something along the lines of 426 and 81.

[t0ny]

Struggling to decide whether to accept an offer from an Irish medical school. I set my sights on medicine three years ago and have been positioning myself ever since to get in, however didn't make the Canadian school cut-offs and I never applied to the States. Although I know I would love to be a doctor, would be good at it and I would find it extremely rewarding; I am worried that this is not enough to overcome the uncertainty of training abroad and returning to canada for my residency (Ideally Ontario for family medicine) and the return-of-service agreements (being stuck in a particular place for several years) that come with IMG training. 

 

My alternative option is to apply to physiotherapy in Ontario, as I pretty confident my background (Kinesiology, Sporting experience) and stats could get me in next year, giving me three years until I am a practicing physio. 

 

So its either 4 years to become a doc + 2-3 FM residencies or 3 years to become a physio. I don't want to wake up at 35 and regret going into physiotherapy and giving up this chance at studying medicine but I also am worried about the timeline of having a family, marriage, being far away from home for 4-8 years.

Thats like asking should I eat grapefruit or chocolate cake?

 

Eat whichever one you want to eat, then figure out how you get it. You don't just eat whichever one is infront of you first

[武田信玄]

I have friends who went took this path and even did masters 3.9+ GPA solid mcat scores, and they didn't get accepted

 

Also every year you spend does matter, it's a loss of income, very stressful years, and your not guaranteed admissions by any means either.

 

spending an additional 2-4 years of undergrad, and applying with 4k applicants for 150 spots

 

I'm just going to say that reading all this makes me feel really sad, especially when I was in the same boat not too long ago. You work your butt off but it's still not enough. I'm surprised I wasn't depressed or anything back then.

[GGGSaint]

^ Life is unfair a lot of the time, yes. Some individuals get spoon fed owing to the family/birth place/connections they have and some individuals have to move mountains to try and get to that same place.

 

I will say though, a lot of living is about the journey. The adversity does make you better and stronger than you previously were in ways you cannot have imagined. Or in some ways, as resonated with me in the wonderful recent movie "The Imitation Game": "Sometimes, it's the people no one imagines anything of, who do the things that no one can imagine."

 

Resilience, my friends.

[NLengr]

My take: Are you comfortable with the idea of taking $400,000 of your money, walking into a Casino with and betting it all on black at the roulette table?

 

If you aren't comfortable with that idea, don't go international. If you end up unmatched (which is a very real possibility), then you have essentially wasted all that money to buy a useless piece of paper. You'll spend the rest of your life struggling to climb out of the financial hole you find yourself in.

[Edict]

My take: Are you comfortable with the idea of taking $400,000 of your money, walking into a Casino with and betting it all on black at the roulette table?

 

If you aren't comfortable with that idea, don't go international. If you end up unmatched (which is a very real possibility), then you have essentially wasted all that money to buy a useless piece of paper. You'll spend the rest of your life struggling to climb out of the financial hole you find yourself in.

 

Bad analogy, its not a casino you are betting on, you are betting on yourself. Taking 400k and betting on a casino is taking the control out of your hands entirely, its up to the luck of the draw. Its not like that if you go international, if you study hard, ace your exams, impress on your electives (all 3 are doable if you are dedicated) you can dramatically improve your chances.

 

My take: you are taking 400k and betting on yourself. Do you think you have the self control to actually make it? Is this something you want so bad that you would put your all just to make it work and sacrifice other aspects of your life? If the answer is yes then it may be worth considering.

[NLengr]

Bad analogy, its not a casino you are betting on, you are betting on yourself. Taking 400k and betting on a casino is taking the control out of your hands entirely, its up to the luck of the draw. Its not like that if you go international, if you study hard, ace your exams, impress on your electives (all 3 are doable if you are dedicated) you can dramatically improve your chances.

 

My take: you are taking 400k and betting on yourself. Do you think you have the self control to actually make it? Is this something you want so bad that you would put your all just to make it work and sacrifice other aspects of your life? If the answer is yes then it may be worth considering.

 

In the end, it's still a significant gamble if one decides to go international. It's not like the vast majority of CSA's aren't busting their ass just like you are. The vast majority of them are just as smart, hard working and socially capable as you are. A portion of the match still comes down to luck (even for CMGs).

 

If you go international, you need to be prepared to possibly lose $400k. The odds of that happening statistically are fairly significant.

[Edict]

In the end, it's still a significant gamble if one decides to go international. It's not like the vast majority of CSA's aren't busting their ass just like you are. The vast majority of them are just as smart, hard working and socially capable as you are. A portion of the match still comes down to luck (even for CMGs).

 

If you go international, you need to be prepared to possibly lose $400k. The odds of that happening statistically are fairly significant.

 

For the Canadian match for sure, but if you add in the US match? If you score a 250 on the USMLE 1 and 2 then impress on your electives, you'll get in somewhere, mind you it might not be a uni spot but even at the very worst you will match to a community program in a specialty that is not competitive. We talk about it like its a negative or some sort of failure, but i'm sure if you compare being a doctor to not being a doctor there is still a significant advantage to that. 

 

In this case I think even those scoring 230+ can match somewhere, you basically need a step score about 20 points higher and equivalent elective performance in order to match to a residency a US grad would get. 

 

What i'm trying to say is a lot of people who go abroad will fail, the stats show that. However, the majority of people do not go on pm101 much, the people who don't really think enough before going abroad who think its somehow easy, there are plenty of people like that and they probably form a good chunk of the ones who don't match. I've said this before, but if you are super serious about things you will match.. somewhere.