Sgu

[medhope15]

I have heard tons about this, mostly because I know 2 Canadian surgical residents who trained there, but what is the general consensus on this school?? They really advertise their Canadian and US grads on their website that's for sure.

[GH0ST]

I'll preface this by saying that these are my opinions, so feel free to agree or disagree. If other people with more experience on the topic can post as well I'd be glad to read more posts/opinions on the topic.

 

Like any other Caribbean school their primary goal is to milk you for all you got, your education is secondary.

 

There are always success stories for people that did go for that route, but they aren't as common as the statistics would like us to perceive. Numbers don't lie, but it can be misconstrued.

 

With the decreasing trend in match rates and the risk of a weaker clerkship year (setting aside the financial burden), you should consider this only as a last resort (assuming you still have the resolve to practice medicine... not just get into a medical school and be done with it).

 

The fundamental problem for me with Caribbean schools is the students' mentality. They all believe that they can be the exception (by being the best in the school through the highest grades), but realistically speaking only a few people can... leaving a lot of people disappointed.

 

SGU at the very least is among the better of the Caribbean schools, though depending on who you talk to that's not saying much.

 

It will really depend on your personal circumstances (grades, financial situation, alternative career options), your preference for practicing in the US over Canada (in the event you don't come back), and ultimately what you're willing to sacrifice for a suboptimal situation.

 

I really look up to those who are willing to put it all on the line.... but for most people I feel that if they cannot get into a medical school in North America that they may need to consider an alternative career and cut their losses.

 

- G

[GH0ST]

I came across this from a while back (had to do some digging since I remembered it from somewhere and it left a profound impression on me).

 

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Dr Air Jordan said: ↑

If there is a 40-50% attrition rate and then a 60% match rate from a school like SGU, why isn't there a thread on SDN or some other website FILLED with people's horror stories?

I'm trying to find the thousands upon thousands of stories but they seemingly don't exist on the internet. Did the Caribbean schools hire firms like reputation.com to protect what people see?

There is potentially some serious deception occurring by the Caribbean schools, is this illegal?

Oops I mispelled Caribbean in the title

 

 

This is exactly why it needs to be difficult to get into Medical School. Some people are deluded into thinking that despite their complete lack of work ethic and/or intelligence that have prohibited them from studying medicine in the US, they can still become a doctor simply because they were extended an admission letter by some school on an island that will let nearly anyone in who has enough money to pay for it. They think admission to medical school means they are handed an MD on a silver platter. Then when these people get there and realize they are living in a developing country without many luxuries they take for granted, and on top of that they are made to actually do a lot of work, a third of them just throw up their arms and drop out.

Another third of Caribbean students will do the bare minimum to pass medical school, just like they did to pass undergrad (which is the exact attitude that held them back from getting into an allo school in the first place). They will graduate from the Caribbean with a 195 on the step I, perhaps after a couple of attempts at it, and a couple mediocre reference letters from clinicians who are willing to write something entirely generic about their entirely unremarkable efforts on the ward. They are then shocked that they don't get into a residency with a track record like that. They will b|tch and complain about how they were tricked into thinking that becoming a doctor was a guarantee, an entitlement even... because after all, they went to medical school! Just coast your way through with the bare minimum of effort and you'll still be handed a guaranteed 200k job at the end of it right?!?

Then the final third of Caribbean students are the ones who will make legitimately good physicians. These are people, who for whatever reason, did not put forth enough effort in undergrad, or were struggling with something in life during the years that matter most, and now it is simply too late to fix it. These are the people who feel genuinely grateful for a second chance at living their version of the American dream, and they make damn sure to make the most of it and not repeat their mistakes. A lot of these people will end up with step scores well above the US average because they are genuinely bright and motivated individuals, who simply didnt know what they wanted to do in life yet, or made mistakes in their past studies that they now genuinely regret. They know they have to bust their ass now to make up for it, as they are already at a disadvantage. Because of IMG status, they may not secure the most prestigious or desirable residencies, but the vast majority of this demographic will attain US residencies, and deservingly so.

Basically, someone's success at a Caribbean school is not entirely a "gamble" and is not left entirely up to chance. It is largely dependent on one's own abilities and efforts. The system is not broken or unfair, it rewards those who work hard and perform highly. It always has and it always will. If they score high, get raving LoRs, and a solid EC they'll most certainly match somehwere, even if its not a top program or their first choice of specialty. The problem is that such a huge portion of students moving off to study medicine in the Caribbean do not belong in a medical school at all (hence why they were not admitted in the US), and are entirely delusional about their own abilities and the fact that becoming a physician in the US requires much more than just being sent a letter of admission from some Caribbean medical school. Nobody likes to think that they aren't good enough to become a physician, but the harsh reality is that a lot of people really aren't. The tragedy is that there are plenty of institutions out there that are fully aware of this and will continue to take their money, feeding into their delusional fantasies that will ultimately come crashing down in a heap of financial ruin.

 

 

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From http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/where-are-all-the-caribean-failure-stories.1123211/

[NotASerialKiller]

Absolutely agree with this post. This is what I've been telling classmates of mine who struggle for 70s in science courses and are now applying to Caribbean schools (while trying not to offend them).

[GH0ST]

Absolutely agree with this post. This is what I've been telling classmates of mine who struggle for 70s in science courses and are now applying to Caribbean schools (while trying not to offend them).

 

At the end of the day who knows? They may be a good physician at the end of the day... but according to my previous post, the chances even for the third group of students are closing rapidly. My point is this... not everyone can think they are the exception. As much as I commend their efforts to fight for their dreams, you cannot be unrealistic with your second chance. They have to see the unvarnished truth, then decide if they want to make the gamble. The problem is that many students either coast in school thinking they'll go to the Caribbean, truly do not have the potential (really hard to say), or don't change the poor habits they make during undergrad. People cannot simply deny these harsh realities.

 

If people want some real numbers for themselves to decide ... here you go

 

This is the NRMP (US version of CaRMS) match rates for Caribbean schools in 2013 (note that these numbers are slowly going lower globally)

Pay special attention to Chart FM-3 and Chart 15 for that dose of reality and compare that to the match rates for any NA school

Even those with decent USMLE scores your match rate is around 50/50.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP-ECFMG-Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

These are the CaRMS results --> http://www.carms.ca/en/data-and-reports/r-1/reports-2015/

Summary

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_1_Summary_of_Match_Results_English.pdf

 

90/238 in the first match for all students from international schools (that graduated in that same year)

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_2_Summary_of_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_English.pdf

 

13/74 in the 2nd iteration (that graduated in that same year)

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_4_Summary_of_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_English.pdf

 

That said, always think twice when reading statistics and try to think of what it's really assessing (and possible reasons for them).

 

Lastly... some may wonder that with some of the success/uplifting stories from Caribbean students... why is it still seemingly a poor choice? Just go into student doctor network and search "Caribbean" ... honestly some of those stories are tragic enough to keep me up at night.

 

- G

[NotASerialKiller]

Yeah, it's definitely not about convincing people not to go or scaring them out of it, just about understanding the reality of the situation. Lots of very bright people can coast/party their way out of the running for North American schools but still have a lot of potential. I just worry about the people who try their hardest for borderline grades and choose the Caribbean because they (or their parents, often and sadly enough) desperately want to call themselves a doctor. Dropping out after forking over 200k is pretty horrifying.

[uoit101]

At the end of the day who knows? They may be a good physician at the end of the day... but according to my previous post, the chances even for the third group of students are closing rapidly. My point is this... not everyone can think they are the exception. As much as I commend their efforts to fight for their dreams, you cannot be unrealistic with your second chance. They have to see the unvarnished truth, then decide if they want to make the gamble. The problem is that many students either coast in school thinking they'll go to the Caribbean, truly do not have the potential (really hard to say), or don't change the poor habits they make during undergrad. People cannot simply deny these harsh realities.

 

If people want some real numbers for themselves to decide ... here you go

 

This is the NRMP (US version of CaRMS) match rates for Caribbean schools in 2013 (note that these numbers are slowly going lower globally)

Pay special attention to Chart FM-3 and Chart 15 for that dose of reality and compare that to the match rates for any NA school

Even those with decent USMLE scores your match rate is around 50/50.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP-ECFMG-Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

These are the CaRMS results --> http://www.carms.ca/en/data-and-reports/r-1/reports-2015/

Summary

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_1_Summary_of_Match_Results_English.pdf

 

90/238 in the first match for all students from international schools (that graduated in that same year)

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_2_Summary_of_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_English.pdf

 

13/74 in the 2nd iteration (that graduated in that same year)

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_4_Summary_of_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_English.pdf

 

That said, always think twice when reading statistics and try to think of what it's really assessing (and possible reasons for them).

 

Lastly... some may wonder that with some of the success/uplifting stories from Caribbean students... why is it still seemingly a poor choice? Just go into student doctor network and search "Caribbean" ... honestly some of those stories are tragic enough to keep me up at night.

 

- G

 

Apparently it's a 50/50 match rate for ALL applicants applying i.e. including the foreign docs who apply year after year. NRMP data doesn't distinguish between fresh graduates vs thousands of foreigners that reapply yearly hoping to get in. For recent graduates (<1 year after graduation), the match rate is higher at ~70%. I remember one of those sdn guys explaining this in detail. I could be wrong though...i didn't really bother digging into this much. Just briefly looked into it since a lot of my friends are at MUA. 

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-major-caribbean-schools-admission-lie.1125197/#post-16281600 

 

I do agree with everything you said. It shocks me when i see people who are oblivious to the whole IMG climate and ready to jump ship to an unknown Caribbean school. Even worse is the fact that lot of people still don't even know about DO schools. Whether it's the right or wrong decision, one should at least look into the NRMP/CARMS statistics, DO schools etc. before making an informed decision.  Also, those people who "dreamed" to be a doctor but schemed through lecture slides night before exams to get C's throughout undergrad should at least develop proper study habits before taking this financial risk. 

[GH0ST]

Man I haven't taken as much time to read about this topic ever until the recent months.

 

A more comprehensive post regarding one's experiences in a Caribbean school.

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/now-a-cautionary-tale.1107726/

 

There's a forum dedicated to just IMGs if anyone is interested in getting more opinions. There is a mix of good and bad stories, but the general consensus again is that the risk is great, and only growing.

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/caribbean.90/

 

The rest can make their decision as to what they want to do.

 

- G