50 Cmg Pgy1 Spots Being Slashed Over The Next Two Years.

[thatonekid]

Over the next 2 years, there will be a reduction of 28 fam med spots, 10 internal spots, 2 Peds, 2 OBGYN , 2 Neuro and 6 other spots (not sure which specialties).

 

These are the unofficial positions. 

 

I also heard similar numbers from people in the know. Unfortunate that it's primary care like family and internal.

[LeBronto2019]

Why family med and internal???

 

Yeah wtf man

[ploughboy]

Somebody who has more time than I should look up the CaRMS and OMSAS data for the last couple of decades and see where this puts the med school:residency spot ratio for Ontario vs historical norms.  IIRC the system has aimed for a 1:1.1 ratio in the past, to allow for re-entrants, switches etc.

[ploughboy]

Since I'm a cynic, I suggest keeping your eyes open in the next couple of years (especially in the run-up to the next provincial election) for ads touting a corresponding increase in NP training*

 

"Your Ontario government is committed to providing quality health care to all Ontarians.  That's why we're investing in training more nurse practitioners to provide primary care in Ontario."

 

"Nurse practitioners are health professionals who will take the time to listen to your health concerns...to give you the attention that you deserve...who will be there when you need them..."

 

etc etc etc

 

 

 

*Yes, I know the money for training comes from different pots, and it's not as simple as I'm making it out to be.  But if I were Minister of Health, facing a huge deficit, and believed that NPs cost the system less than FMDs it's what I'd do.

[ralk]

Somebody who has more time than I should look up the CaRMS and OMSAS data for the last couple of decades and see where this puts the med school:residency spot ratio for Ontario vs historical norms.  IIRC the system has aimed for a 1:1.1 ratio in the past, to allow for re-entrants, switches etc.

 

Apparently the idea is to reduce that 1:1.1 ratio to 1:1.05.

 

This year, from what I can tell, the actual ratio was about 1:1.06. If the number of graduating students stays the same, which seems likely given enrollment, the rate in 2017 will be about 1:1. This does not account for previous years' graduates or the small net influx of medical students for residency from other provinces.

[A-Stark]

How is this bad news?  How can so many supposedly smart people be so entitled??  Getting into medical school should not guarantee one a high paying life in their dream job any more than any other profession.

 

A residency should not be "guaranteed", but it is reasonable for all graduating medical students who have completed their academic requirements successfully to be literally entitled to a postgraduate training position in something. 

 

This board does not offer many 'other' point of views.   I find that generalized herd mentality to be more dangerous than having people with less popular opinions on the board (this kind of herd mentality seems to exist on all sorts of social media as well - it's the bane of our generation).  One doesn't have to agree with me - but agreeing with what the ministry of health in Ontario is doing, which is headed by a physician,  is not exactly true trolling behavior. 

 

As noted above, you have a pretty caustic manner around here. You haven't been through CaRMS. I have no idea whether you've necessarily gotten into med school. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but comments about being "entitled" suggest a cavalier ignorance about the stresses of the match and often all-or-nothing career determination it entails. 

 

But I certainly do agree that - if any spots are to be eliminated - they should be IMG spots. 

[NLengr]

A residency should not be "guaranteed", but it is reasonable for all graduating medical students who have completed their academic requirements successfully to be literally entitled to a postgraduate training position in something. 

 

It's a huge waste of taxpayer money to fund someone going through med school and then not have them complete a residency. It's the same as burning a few hundred thousand dollars per student in a barrel behind Queen's Park.

 

Of course, the current Ontario government isn't know for it's intelligence or fiscal competency.

[A-Stark]

I should add that the Minister of Health Eric Hoskins may be an MD, but hasn't practiced in any clinical capacity since early in residency if ever. He's just an international policy type who hasn't spent time "on the ground" in decades. 

[GrouchoMarx]

Since I'm a cynic, I suggest keeping your eyes open in the next couple of years (especially in the run-up to the next provincial election) for ads touting a corresponding increase in NP training*

 

"Your Ontario government is committed to providing quality health care to all Ontarians.  That's why we're investing in training more nurse practitioners to provide primary care in Ontario."

 

"Nurse practitioners are health professionals who will take the time to listen to your health concerns...to give you the attention that you deserve...who will be there when you need them..."

 

etc etc etc

 

 

 

*Yes, I know the money for training comes from different pots, and it's not as simple as I'm making it out to be.  But if I were Minister of Health, facing a huge deficit, and believed that NPs cost the system less than FMDs it's what I'd do.

 

That's an excellent point!

[567765]

I disagree with the cuts - no spots should be cut whether it is IMG or CMG.

 

The country is heading into recession. They cut spot in 2016 and 2017, they may cut even more spots down the road. As it seems to be the money saving strategy for in-debt Ontario government.

 

This situation is similar to person (Ontario ministry of health) sitting on your chest and drooling all over your mouth (mouth of you folks)

 

I guess you folks have to look into residency spots in other provinces.

 

I don't understand I thought that with our aging population we need more physicians and specialists.

[GrouchoMarx]

You know its kind of sickening how corrupt this whole thing is playing out. 

 

On one hand they're cutting 50 residency spots, mostly in primary care.

 

On the other hand, there's an IMG-only urology spot at Ottawa.

 

Does this not anger anyone at all?

[GrumpyMoriarty]

Maybe i'm still too much of a newbie to understand this completely, but does this have anything to do with the whole current stalemate between the Ontario government and OMA over billing issues?

[Ladymadchan]

Maybe i'm still too much of a newbie to understand this completely, but does this have anything to do with the whole current stalemate between the Ontario government and OMA over billing issues?

 

They have stated that they will balance the budget for health care one way or another.  They will no longer open positions in Family Health Teams in urban locations and will clawback physicians income.  Now they are going to cut down on residency positions.  Keep in mind that demand is high because the population is at need due to aging demographics.  But regardless, their stated objective is to balance the budget as they've wasted 100s of millions of dollars on boondoggles such as E health over the last decade.  I understand the need to balance the budget but I would like to see it being done in a way that does not obviously impact patient care so much.  Basically the deficit has ballooned out of control (the debt has been recently downgraded) and they are cutting down on essential services. 

[schmitty]

They have stated that they will balance the budget for health care one way or another.  They will no longer open positions in Family Health Teams in urban locations and will clawback physicians income.  Now they are going to cut down on residency positions.  Keep in mind that demand is high because the population is at need due to aging demographics.  But regardless, their stated objective is to balance the budget as they've wasted 100s of millions of dollars on boondoggles such as E health over the last decade.  I understand the need to balance the budget but I would like to see it being done in a way that does not obviously impact patient care so much.  Basically the deficit has ballooned out of control (the debt has been recently downgraded) and they are cutting down on essential services. 

 

 

I just wanted to say that the e-health scandal has little or nothing to do with the current budget squeeze. That may have increased the overall debt slightly, but the costs have not been ongoing for many years (since probably 2008 or 2009) and thus has nothing to do with the current DEFICIT. 

 

Also, if we assume that match applicants change their application strategies slightly so that no more go unmatched (could happen since the ratio is still about 1:1.05 for applicants:spots, then this cut won't save any money for the government since more than 50 spots go unmatched (and thus cost nothing). That's what makes this move confusing unless it also comes with a cut of 50 medical student positions which would save money right away.

[GrouchoMarx]

I just wanted to say that the e-health scandal has little or nothing to do with the current budget squeeze. That may have increased the overall debt slightly, but the costs have not been ongoing for many years (since probably 2008 or 2009) and thus has nothing to do with the current DEFICIT. 

 

Also, if we assume that match applicants change their application strategies slightly so that no more go unmatched (could happen since the ratio is still about 1:1.05 for applicants:spots, then this cut won't save any money for the government since more than 50 spots go unmatched (and thus cost nothing). That's what makes this move confusing unless it also comes with a cut of 50 medical student positions which would save money right away.

 

It's not fair or just, and never has been, that students need to strategize and scheme in order to continue their careers in medicine. This reduction in spots will only make things worse. But there will still be Saudi residents and there will still be IMG-only spots for urology and dermatology in Ottawa. It's rotten to the core.

[Bambi]

In political games, there are always winners & losers. It is a stacked deck. 

[LittleDaisy]

I find this situation of reducing CMG spots while keeping IMG spots and welcoming Saudi residents ironic and horrible. I know CMGs unmatched for urology and dermatology, it is not rare.

The taxpayers and the government invest a lot of money in every CMG medical student while we cannot guarantee a residency spot for everyone, and we are reducing primary care residency spots while the population is aging and needs more complex care

It's not fair or just, and never has been, that students need to strategize and scheme in order to continue their careers in medicine. This reduction in spots will only make things worse. But there will still be Saudi residents and there will still be IMG-only spots for urology and dermatology in Ottawa. It's rotten to the core.

[NLengr]

It's not fair or just, and never has been, that students need to strategize and scheme in order to continue their careers in medicine. This reduction in spots will only make things worse. But there will still be Saudi residents and there will still be IMG-only spots for urology and dermatology in Ottawa. It's rotten to the core.

IMG only spots are politically a great idea when it comes to appealing to voters. Hence why they exist. 

 

Politicians only care about getting re-elected. They'd burn the whole city/province/country to the ground if it meant another 4 years of power.

[Bambi]

^ Yes.  Survival for its own sake is all that matters. (Ask Harper)

[schmitty]

I think everybody is making this a bigger deal than it actually is. The residency match system has to be curated somewhat and not a free market because it needs to suit societal needs. Yes, they are likely going to reduce primary care position, but (hopefully) in more urban centres and/or spots that are often left unfilled anyway (which happens more in primary care than any other). In these urban centres, there is no shortage of doctors or almost any specialty including primary care (there are about 5 clinics within 10 min walk of me that have been accepting new patients for years now). Nobody in medical school is entitled to the perfect residency position in the location or even specialty they want because it just can't work that way while meeting healthcare needs longterm. 

[amichel]

I think everybody is making this a bigger deal than it actually is. The residency match system has to be curated somewhat and not a free market because it needs to suit societal needs. Yes, they are likely going to reduce primary care position, but (hopefully) in more urban centres and/or spots that are often left unfilled anyway (which happens more in primary care than any other). In these urban centres, there is no shortage of doctors or almost any specialty including primary care (there are about 5 clinics within 10 min walk of me that have been accepting new patients for years now). Nobody in medical school is entitled to the perfect residency position in the location or even specialty they want because it just can't work that way while meeting healthcare needs longterm.

I get what you're saying. What doesn't make sense is not doing a corresponding cut in med school spots. It's just a waste of money.

[uwopremed]

I should add that the Minister of Health Eric Hoskins may be an MD, but hasn't practiced in any clinical capacity since early in residency if ever. He's just an international policy type who hasn't spent time "on the ground" in decades. 

 

But he also understands the many 'hardships' that MDs complain about are really just self interested whining.  Doctors in Ontario have it good compared to almost anywhere in the world - and not only should there be pay cuts - but entry into the field to work in Ontario should be more limited.  He understands that.

 

My uncle tells me of the recent OMA tours where Dr Tandon was speaking, that the meeting he was at, there was a doctor upset about the recent 2.5% cut about how they were going to manage their cottage mortgages.  Another  supposedly complained about soaring private school costs and suggested a job action by MDs - with some applause.   Yes...this happened.   Definitely not majority opinion - but much like Donald Trump is out of touch with the average person, many doctors (and med students and residents) are seriously out of touch with what joe taxpayer goes through.

 

I'm not advocating greater pay cuts necessarily.  But some of the demands by the premeds and med students on this board are ludicrous.  Increase medical spots!  Increase residency spots!  Create more specialist jobs!  The CMAs demand more CMA positions!  For once, I would wish that instead of greed based self interest - some of the people on this board would understand things are more nuanced.  The government doesn't get pleasure from cutting residency spots.  They are doing it because there are WAY too many residency spots. 

 

The med schools are also WAY to big.  How does Kingston, a town of 110000, have 100 med students per year?  With 400 med students - that means the whole city is 0.4% medical students alone.  What an insane ratio - and I have no idea how they even train that many students in  things like pediatrics, or specialized surgical specialists adequately.  McMaster with over 200 students being pumped through every 3 years?  Ludicrous.

[...]

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[uwopremed]

I think everybody is making this a bigger deal than it actually is. The residency match system has to be curated somewhat and not a free market because it needs to suit societal needs. Yes, they are likely going to reduce primary care position, but (hopefully) in more urban centres and/or spots that are often left unfilled anyway (which happens more in primary care than any other). In these urban centres, there is no shortage of doctors or almost any specialty including primary care (there are about 5 clinics within 10 min walk of me that have been accepting new patients for years now). Nobody in medical school is entitled to the perfect residency position in the location or even specialty they want because it just can't work that way while meeting healthcare needs longterm. 

 

Finally some common sense in a vast sea of entitled millennials...

[amichel]

But he also understands the many 'hardships' that MDs complain about are really just self interested whining. Doctors in Ontario have it good compared to almost anywhere in the world - and not only should there be pay cuts - but entry into the field to work in Ontario should be more limited. He understands that.

 

My uncle tells me of the recent OMA tours where Dr Tandon was speaking, that the meeting he was at, there was a doctor upset about the recent 2.5% cut about how they were going to manage their cottage mortgages. Another supposedly complained about soaring private school costs and suggested a job action by MDs - with some applause. Yes...this happened. Definitely not majority opinion - but much like Donald Trump is out of touch with the average person, many doctors (and med students and residents) are seriously out of touch with what joe taxpayer goes through.

 

I'm not advocating greater pay cuts necessarily. But some of the demands by the premeds and med students on this board are ludicrous. Increase medical spots! Increase residency spots! Create more specialist jobs! The CMAs demand more CMA positions! For once, I would wish that instead of greed based self interest - some of the people on this board would understand things are more nuanced. The government doesn't get pleasure from cutting residency spots. They are doing it because there are WAY too many residency spots.

 

The med schools are also WAY to big. How does Kingston, a town of 110000, have 100 med students per year? With 400 med students - that means the whole city is 0.4% medical students alone. What an insane ratio - and I have no idea how they even train that many students in things like pediatrics, or specialized surgical specialists adequately. McMaster with over 200 students being pumped through every 3 years? Ludicrous.

Sigh. Once again, you call everyone entitled and naive while you spout your opinions about things you don't understand.

 

Kingston may be 110 thousand, but their catchment is much larger.