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Thinking Of Applying To Polish Medical Schools


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I just graduated university and I want to be a family physician in the US (I am a Canadian).

I have a 3.55 overall gpa, 3.70 sGPA and a 509 MCAT.

I know MD schools are out of my reach and DO schools I may have a decent shot at, I have quite a bit of volunteering. But recently I've been reading up on Polish medical schools, primarily Jagiellonian.

I understand the match rate is lower and there is a risk of not getting matched the first time but let's look at it this way.
USDO schools will cost me 60-80k/year and I will be looking at spending over 300k and waiting another year (Since I am applying next summer for the next cycle) which means 150-200k of family physician income lost. That's 400-500k.

With Jagiellonian, I can apply this January and probably get accepted for Sept 2016. The entire 4 year program costs 50-60k and they do rotations in the US as well during the 4th year. Living costs are significantly cheaper than in the US as well. Even If I don't get matched the first year, I don't have a wad of debt over my head. I can literally afford it out of my own pocket. It doesn't seem that risky to me.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Honestly It seems like I'd have to be pretty lazy to do so bad on my USMLE and references to never ever match. And even if it comes to that, I still don't have that debt on my head.

Haha, don't underestimate the USMLE Step 1. Ever year 5-10% of US seniors themselves fail the USMLE. But for them, they can retake and not be too bad in terms of matching outcomes.

 

If an IMG fails Step 1, you're toast. You can retake, but no one is going to want to touch you with a 10 foot pole, when they have fresh IMG grads with solid step scores to pick from.

 

But your rationale is right, you won't have too much debt by going to jag, and even if it takes a few years to match, you can always just do whatever job to get by. You can google a polish grad, whom is at UofA for FM now. Based on their linkedin profile, there was a 5 year gap between graduation and starting residency. So you can fill in the blanks for that specific individual. 

 

 

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Yeah I'm stuck between waiting a year or two and applying at DO and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars vs just going to Jag.

Is USMLE similar to the Biology section of the MCAT (physiology, molecular biology, microbiology, biochemistry) or is there chemistry and physics involved. If it's just Bio I think I should be alright given Bio is my strength on the mcat (131 on August's but given I have a 509 you can imagine how I did on the rest of it :( , 24 on the DAT). I don't want to seem like I'm bragging because everything else is terrible, im just trying to hear a second opinion on the risk/benefits. I don't think I'll fail the USMLE but may need to  retake it to be competitive. Is that bad too? sorry, I don't know much about this.

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Yeah I'm stuck between waiting a year or two and applying at DO and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars vs just going to Jag.

 

Is USMLE similar to the Biology section of the MCAT (physiology, molecular biology, microbiology, biochemistry) or is there chemistry and physics involved. If it's just Bio I think I should be alright given Bio is my strength on the mcat (131 on August's but given I have a 509 you can imagine how I did on the rest of it :( , 24 on the DAT). I don't want to seem like I'm bragging because everything else is terrible, im just trying to hear a second opinion on the risk/benefits.

lol, the USMLE is nothing like the MCAT. The MCAT is nothing compared to it.  

 

I've watched a friend study for it, and its not pretty. Though, once one is a medical student, its also a different playing field. I guess its like comparing a high school test, to a university test.  And how there is no certainty really just because you did well on the prior, that you will do well on the new one. If that makes any sense.

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That makes sense.

 

What would you do in my shoes Gohan san?

I've pretty risk averse, so i'd go to the US. 

 

But given the cost difference, and wanting FM, its probably ok. As long as you actually make it through all 4 years and do well on the USMLES and MCCEEs etc, then matching FM probably won't be too bad - especially if you're okay with multiple attempts (with app improving things in between).

 

But if you went, and don't do well on the exams, then it would have been better to go to a US school, where you have more leniency for matching.  

 

Hard decision, good luck with that.

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You could always consider moving to a different province if you feel your stats would be better received as an IP applicant somewhere else. Most places are 1-2 years approximately to gain IP status and you can always do more undergrad during that time to make yourself eligible for a best 2 years scenario (western, queens, dalhousie?). I would exhaust options in canada before jumping to the US before jumping to international schools

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I have a 3.74 with my worst year job and im IP for Alberta and BC but I know I wont get in this year and MAYBE next year. By that time im 24 years old, not sure if I want to wait that long when this option is here and relatively low risk imo.

If you have IP at Alberta and UBC...you should definitely just try to improve your application more.

 

And you're only 23 right now? Whats your GPA on the UBC scale?

 

Spend the next year beefing up your ECS and involvments for the upcoming cycle, and spend the following cycle beefing up too.

 

2015/2016 - beef up your application. 

 

2016/2017 -  Keep beefing up application. Apply for Canada for Sept 2017 start(1 year of beefing complete: 2015/2016). Apply to Poland for 2017 start.

 

2017/2018 - Start in poland(M1) sept 2017, beef up app while in med school, re-apply for Canada for Sept 2018 start(2 years of beefing complete: 2015/2016 and 2016/2017). 

 

2018/2019-  Continue in poland(M2) if you didn't get into Canada. Move on in life, or keep re-applying while in poland.

 

This gives you 2 solid years to beef up your application, and a 3rd year of being a M1 in poland while re-applying a 3rd time.

 

You *could* go for a 2016 start in poland, but you aren't really giving yourself any time to beef up your application for another Canada app. 

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If you have IP at Alberta and UBC...you should definitely just try to improve your application more.

 

And you're only 23 right now? Whats your GPA on the UBC scale?

 

Spend the next year beefing up your ECS and involvments for the upcoming cycle, and spend the following cycle beefing up too.

 

2015/2016 - beef up your application. 

 

2016/2017 -  Keep beefing up application. Apply for Canada for Sept 2017 start(1 year of beefing complete: 2015/2016). Apply to Poland for 2017 start.

 

2017/2018 - Start in poland(M1) sept 2017, beef up app while in med school, re-apply for Canada for Sept 2018 start(2 years of beefing complete: 2015/2016 and 2016/2017). 

 

2018/2019-  Continue in poland(M2) if you didn't get into Canada. Move on in life, or keep re-applying while in poland.

 

This gives you 2 solid years to beef up your application, and a 3rd year of being a M1 in poland while re-applying a 3rd time.

 

You *could* go for a 2016 start in poland, but you aren't really giving yourself any time to beef up your application for another Canada app. 

 

This was actually my original plan but Ive been very discouraged by my latest mcat and the fact that my friend with a 3.90, 33 mcat and more volunteering than i can even hope to accomplish within a year (scored above average for those who got accepted for ECs for uofa), has been rejected 3 times from uofa and uofc (never even INTERVIEWED at UofC, I just don't understand it). It just seems ridiculous to me, it's luck of a draw. And while Our engineering friends are out making money and starting their careers, our futures are unpredictable, uncertain and bleak. The entire process has been soul sucking for him, the applications are long and difficult, the interviews have ridiculous questions and the wait of one year is insane. He was also wait-listed for the whole summer this year.  I'm starting to wonder if its even worthwhile to wait till at least 2 years till im in medical school or just go to Poland and take that 10-15% risk of not matching first year and 2-5% risk of not matching ever, since I only want to be a family physician, especially given the price and that it's Europe so that'll be a interesting experience. My realistic choice wasnt actually canadian schools but DO schools (I want to practice in the US anyways) but that's going to cost me 350k if we include living expenses. 

 

There's just very little chance i'll get into uofa (low gpa) and Uofc (VR of 9 and low gpa). Seems like UBC is my best bet for canada at 84.9% gpa but its still bleak and may take 2-3 years if I can even manage to get through the interview. Are Canadian schools really worth the 2-3 years of stress and hardship while everyone else moves on with their lives? Are they really worth the not having the risk of not getting matched the first try and falling a year behind?

 

I would like to be a practicing doctor by the time im 30 or 31. 

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This was actually my original plan but Ive been very discouraged by my latest mcat and the fact that my friend with a 3.90, 33 mcat and more volunteering than i can even hope to accomplish within a year (scored above average for those who got accepted for ECs for uofa), has been rejected 3 times from uofa and uofc (never even INTERVIEWED at UofC, I just don't understand it). It just seems ridiculous to me, it's luck of a draw. And while Our engineering friends are out making money and starting their careers, our futures are unpredictable, uncertain and bleak. The entire process has been soul sucking for him, the applications are long and difficult, the interviews have ridiculous questions and the wait of one year is insane. He was also wait-listed for the whole summer this year.  I'm starting to wonder if its even worthwhile to wait till at least 2 years till im in medical school or just go to Poland and take that 10-15% risk of not matching first year and 2-5% risk of not matching ever, since I only want to be a family physician, especially given the price and that it's Europe so that'll be a interesting experience. My realistic choice wasnt actually canadian schools but DO schools (I want to practice in the US anyways) but that's going to cost me 350k if we include living expenses. 

 

There's just very little chance i'll get into uofa (low gpa) and Uofc (VR of 9 and low gpa). Seems like UBC is my best bet for canada at 84.9% gpa but its still bleak and may take 2-3 years if I can even manage to get through the interview. Are Canadian schools really worth the 2-3 years of stress and hardship while everyone else moves on with their lives? Are they really worth the not having the risk of not getting matched the first try and falling a year behind?

 

I would like to be a practicing doctor by the time im 30 or 31. 

Well, in this case you would only "lose" 1 year as you cant start in poland till sept 2016 anyways. 

 

Doing it the way i suggested seems like a very reasonable way to approach. You will still start in poland in 2 years, if Canada continues to not work out.

 

I think having a Canadian degree and the options of a CMG are WELL worth the 1 year you will "lose" by following my option, compared to your option.  

 

You never know if you decide you want to do something other than FM. Why close so, so many doors over 1 year?

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Well, in this case you would only "lose" 1 year as you cant start in poland till sept 2016 anyways. 

 

Doing it the way i suggested seems like a very reasonable way to approach. You will still start in poland in 2 years, if Canada continues to not work out.

 

I think having a Canadian degree and the options of a CMG are WELL worth the 1 year you will "lose" by following my option, compared to your option.  

 

You never know if you decide you want to do something other than FM. Why close so, so many doors over 1 year?

I think ill apply anyways and then make the decision whether or not to go to Poland. Im planning on volunteering at 7-9 different places till sept 2016 and im starting my own charity. If i do decide to go to poland, i can reapply to canada during my first year in poland and if i get accepted i can make the decision to come back or not

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I think ill apply anyways and then make the decision whether or not to go to Poland. Im planning on volunteering at 7-9 different places till sept 2016 and im starting my own charity. If i do decide to go to poland, i can reapply to canada during my first year in poland and if i get accepted i can make the decision to come back or not

Good luck!  And if you get accepted while in poland, it would be a very bad idea to not come back lol.

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When you say you do your 4th year rotations in USA do you mean your electives? In that case i believe it's only 12 weeks we Canadians are allowed to do (16 for American kids).

 

I'm always put off by the notion that we don't get to do too many rotations in USA going to Polish schools. I was told by one of the Caribbean grads that when applying for US residency, lot of the programs want 6 months to 1 year of clinical rotations done in USA. No idea how much truth there is to that.

 

About attrition...It's low in Polish schools i.e. it's not as horrendous as the big Caribbean schools. Source: I e-mailed a couple of Polish grads to get some more perspective on this. You'll make it through 4 years, and get plenty of time to study for your steps since lectures aren't mandatory, only labs and seminars are. My info is from Warsaw grads..i'm assuming it'd be similar in Jag. I'm also considering the Polish route given that i wanna do Peds or FM, which is supposedly not that hard to match into.  Jag is also considered the best Polish school as well, so that might help when applying for residency.

 

There's a document i found posted by an Irish school which showed that even their match rate is around 60-70% in Canada. The one's that went unmatched did research for a year (hospital or in universities) and matched right after. DO or anything North American is obviously the safest, but it doesn't seem (to me at least) that horrendous of a deal to go to a Polish school if your goal is FM/IM/Peds/Psyc. Perhaps someone more versed on this could comment. 

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http://cmspahome.wix.com/poland#!reports/cxu1

 

I would look at the Canadians studying medicine in Poland association.  They'll give you more information. Don't underestimate the USMLE, getting a good grades is not easy in my opinion, but with that being said if you are willing to essentially say that you aren't going to get to choose where you live for the next 6-7 years of your life, then you can go to Poland. You'd also have to work your butt off haha.

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In the future, it looks like Canada will be limiting SON more and more for the J1 visa, so do take that into account for trying to do residency in the US.

It is very plausible that even if you match in the US, weather on the first try or 2nd or 3rd, that you still may not be able to start if you don't get the j1 visa.

If you have dual-citizenship, with one other than canadian, then it becomes a bit more less risky if you can claim that citizenship for purposes of SON.

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  • 1 month later...

In the future, it looks like Canada will be limiting SON more and more for the J1 visa, so do take that into account for trying to do residency in the US.

 

It is very plausible that even if you match in the US, weather on the first try or 2nd or 3rd, that you still may not be able to start if you don't get the j1 visa.

 

If you have dual-citizenship, with one other than canadian, then it becomes a bit more less risky if you can claim that citizenship for purposes of SON.

 

I actually had a question about this and i didn't wanna start a new thread. So for 2016, Canada will issue ~295 J1 visas for FM.

How many Canadian IMG's actually apply and obtain US FM residencies yearly? I mean, isn't 295 "enough"? I have no idea where to find hard data on this. 

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I actually had a question about this and i didn't wanna start a new thread. So for 2016, Canada will issue ~295 J1 visas for FM.

How many Canadian IMG's actually apply and obtain US FM residencies yearly? I mean, isn't 295 "enough"? I have no idea where to find hard data on this. 

 

If you think about it, it probably won't be enough because there are a lot of Canadians in Caribbean schools, Irish schools and Australian schools as well as Polish schools, UK schools, Israeli schools etc. If you add them all up the numbers are likely around 1000 per year. CaRMS once had a statistic saying 3500 are abroad but that was in 2010 and things are likely higher now. Likely around 200 of those Canadians match each year to Canada, but for the other 800 the majority are going to go for the US because bar a few, most people can't stay in the country they studied in or don't want to stay. At the same time with 295, its probably close.

 

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

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  • 1 month later...

http://www.medschool.uj.edu.pl/documents/3128353/18323916/Residency%20Placements%20in%202015.pdf

 

From Jagiellonian's website. This is for the 4 year program. Seems extremely promising. 

 

Wow, interesting... was about to say don't go to Poland but that's quite an "impressive" list considering it's an INTL school in Poland.

 

Are you sure that list is to trust?

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