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Thinking Of Applying To Polish Medical Schools


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Wow, interesting... was about to say don't go to Poland but that's quite an "impressive" list considering it's an INTL school in Poland.

 

Are you sure that list is to trust?

 

There are some serious issues with this list. First, we don't know how many graduates they produce each year, likely quite high. Second of all, a lot of these places in the UK are likely those originally from the UK as Poland is a popular option for British citizens who don't get into medical schools. 

 

http://cmspahome.wix.com/poland#!students/c1pna

 

This link shows you the Canadian student numbers in Poland. 

 

Now if you divide Jagellonian's numbers by 4, there are about 12 Canadians, however there was only 1 match to Canada, Fam Med at UBC. Some of those students may have matched to the US, and a few possibly to the UK, but overall the numbers don't look that great in context. 

 

This is not to even account for the other Polish schools. 

 

This list actually shows you that the Irish match list is stronger than the Polish one. 

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I don't plan on coming back to Canada, may not even apply for residency here. My goal is family med in the US. So the list seems promising to me.

They have a class of maximum of 40 each year for the 4 year program. That list is all the graduates they had for that year, 5 decided not to apply for residency in 2015. For 2012 it shows 2-3 people that didn't match anywhere

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I don't plan on coming back to Canada, may not even apply for residency here. My goal is family med in the US. So the list seems promising to me.

 

They have a class of maximum of 40 each year for the 4 year program. That list is all the graduates they had for that year, 5 decided not to apply for residency in 2015. For 2012 it shows 2-3 people that didn't match anywhere

If you're aiming for US for residency, remember that you won't have as easy of a time as a US-IMG. You would be a Non-US citizen IMG, and be at the mercy of Health Canada providing you a Statement of Need to do your residency in the US.

 

Match lists only capture so much detail, and much of the nuances are not presented. 

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If you're aiming for US for residency, remember that you won't have as easy of a time as a US-IMG. You would be a Non-US citizen IMG, and be at the mercy of Health Canada providing you a Statement of Need to do your residency in the US.

 

Match lists only capture so much detail, and much of the nuances are not presented. 

 

Do you think the new restriction on number of visa issued is that big of a deal though?

Only ~400 Canadians in total apply to NRMP every year with ~250 of them matching. As of now, i believe FM alone gets like 300 visas. The number of visa issued, though anticipated to decrease, seems "enough" to me. Unless of course i'm missing something major  :confused:

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Do you think the new restriction on number of visa issued is that big of a deal though?

Only ~400 Canadians in total apply to NRMP every year with ~250 of them matching. As of now, i believe FM alone gets like 300 visas. The number of visa issued, though anticipated to decrease, seems "enough" to me. Unless of course i'm missing something major  :confused:

 

It's a big enough deal. The quotas were put in specifically because of too many Canadians applying for these visas, they're designed to drop below the demand for positions. FM, with a strong job market in Canada and weak interest from medical students, will likely be the last to see its quotas exceeded, but other specialties are apparently quite close. Internal, for example, which is one of the larger specialties for IMGs, looks to exceed the quota Canada has set within the next few years. Other specialties with fewer Canadians doing residency in the US have already experienced this. When you don't know whether the number of applicants for visas will exceed the quota, or by how much, until after matching, you leave a lot to chance.

 

The US is still an alright option for a Canadian studying abroad to go to for residency, ideally as a back-up to getting a Canadian residency, but it's a risky proposition, especially for those interested in specialties outside of FM.

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It's a big enough deal. The quotas were put in specifically because of too many Canadians applying for these visas, they're designed to drop below the demand for positions. FM, with a strong job market in Canada and weak interest from medical students, will likely be the last to see its quotas exceeded, but other specialties are apparently quite close. Internal, for example, which is one of the larger specialties for IMGs, looks to exceed the quota Canada has set within the next few years. Other specialties with fewer Canadians doing residency in the US have already experienced this. When you don't know whether the number of applicants for visas will exceed the quota, or by how much, until after matching, you leave a lot to chance.

 

The US is still an alright option for a Canadian studying abroad to go to for residency, ideally as a back-up to getting a Canadian residency, but it's a risky proposition, especially for those interested in specialties outside of FM.

 

Great information. Do you feel that the # of visa issued for IM would decrease drastically by next few years? 200 is issued as of now.. which isn't that far off from total # of Canadians matching through NRMP. 

In any case, as you alluded to, based on numbers alone.. i really don't think it's that risky to go abroad aiming for a US FM residency. 

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Great information. Do you feel that the # of visa issued for IM would decrease drastically by next few years? 200 is issued as of now.. which isn't that far off from total # of Canadians matching through NRMP. 

In any case, as you alluded to, based on numbers alone.. i really don't think it's that risky to go abroad aiming for a US FM residency. 

 

It sounds like Health Canada is leaning towards at least a moderate reduction in the IM quota, but even if it doesn't, the trend for IM visas issued has been increasing rather quickly (like 15-20 a year from what I understand). They could easily be over the quota this year, without any reduction.

 

FM has a greater buffer before the number of visas reaches the quota, but for anyone applying for IMG schools now, that's 4-5 years for the number of applicants grow and the quota to shrink. It'd only take a relatively small yearly net change, 25 a year, to push the number of applicants over the quota in FM in that time frame. That's very possible, even probable, especially if IM exceeds its quota next year and drives interest towards FM. Most would still probably get a visa, but it's not a guarantee. But importantly, that's just the risk for the people who match. Non-US IMGs applying through the NRMP have a fairly mediocre match rate, even for relatively noncompetitive specialties like FM. Even if visas weren't an issue - and they certainly could be in the near future - going abroad aiming for a US FM residency is still a risky proposition.

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It sounds like Health Canada is leaning towards at least a moderate reduction in the IM quota, but even if it doesn't, the trend for IM visas issued has been increasing rather quickly (like 15-20 a year from what I understand). They could easily be over the quota this year, without any reduction.

 

FM has a greater buffer before the number of visas reaches the quota, but for anyone applying for IMG schools now, that's 4-5 years for the number of applicants grow and the quota to shrink. It'd only take a relatively small yearly net change, 25 a year, to push the number of applicants over the quota in FM in that time frame. That's very possible, even probable, especially if IM exceeds its quota next year and drives interest towards FM. Most would still probably get a visa, but it's not a guarantee. But importantly, that's just the risk for the people who match. Non-US IMGs applying through the NRMP have a fairly mediocre match rate, even for relatively noncompetitive specialties like FM. Even if visas weren't an issue - and they certainly could be in the near future - going abroad aiming for a US FM residency is still a risky proposition.

 

Non-US IMGs (who are recent grads ) match at 73%, 71%, 82% and 65% for FM, IM, Peds and Psyc respectively.

Not the greatest as you've mentioned and there's definitely an element of risk. I'd assume premed101 posters wouldn't consider this route without at least a cycle of MD/DO apps.

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Non-US IMGs (who are recent grads ) match at 73%, 71%, 82% and 65% for FM, IM, Peds and Psyc respectively.

Not the greatest as you've mentioned and there's definitely an element of risk. I'd assume premed101 posters wouldn't consider this route without at least a cycle of MD/DO apps.

Even those rates are inflated in terms of an overall success rate for IMGs, as they don't account for failing out of an IMG school (not necessarily Polish schools, but many IMG schools have significant attrition) and those who choose not to apply for residency because of a poor application (need to repeat Steps, improve LORs, etc.)

 

My general advice is not to go overseas period if you don't hold dual citizenship - if USMD/DO don't pan out, to me that's it. For those with a high risk tolerance, very flexible career and life goals, and the ability to lose several hundred thousand dollars, maybe it's an option, but otherwise, best to avoid.

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The risk isn't as great as made out to be. Lets think about it for a second. If you are actually coming onto this forum and posting about it, you are already likely pretty serious. You will be surprised at the people who go abroad without thinking this kind of thing through enough, those more or less comprise a good chunk of the people who drop out. 

 

The FM match rate is 73%, but you have to take into account huge huge advantages you offer in the non-US IMG pool. You speak English natively, you understand american culture, you are not switching mid career so you are young and more easily trainable. These are all big advantages to PIs that will make them want to take you over another non-US IMG. 

 

When you think about it, if you put in the effort and you are willing to take anything and try matching to both US and Canada, you have a decent chance of actually matching. It means huge sacrifices, but its potentially doable as long as you've exhausted your options back home. 

 

If we talk about the quota for J1s, even if lets say the FM number exceeds the quota by the time you match. If the quota is 800 and the number wanting the quota is 825, your chance of actually being that 25 that doesn't get the J1 is honestly very small. So its a minor hiccup and another stressor but its not a deal breaker. 

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The risk isn't as great as made out to be. Lets think about it for a second. If you are actually coming onto this forum and posting about it, you are already likely pretty serious. You will be surprised at the people who go abroad without thinking this kind of thing through enough, those more or less comprise a good chunk of the people who drop out. 

 

The FM match rate is 73%, but you have to take into account huge huge advantages you offer in the non-US IMG pool. You speak English natively, you understand american culture, you are not switching mid career so you are young and more easily trainable. These are all big advantages to PIs that will make them want to take you over another non-US IMG. 

 

When you think about it, if you put in the effort and you are willing to take anything and try matching to both US and Canada, you have a decent chance of actually matching. It means huge sacrifices, but its potentially doable as long as you've exhausted your options back home. 

 

If we talk about the quota for J1s, even if lets say the FM number exceeds the quota by the time you match. If the quota is 800 and the number wanting the quota is 825, your chance of actually being that 25 that doesn't get the J1 is honestly very small. So its a minor hiccup and another stressor but its not a deal breaker. 

The quota has had an indirect effect this year, that alot of programs are second guessing interviewing Canadian IMGs due to the perceived risk of losing a trainee should they be that unlucky statistic.

 

This is from direct experience of those participating in the match this year from the big 4 schools - people who should be otherwise receiving 15-20 interviews in FM/psych etc, with average to above average stats, are only receiving 5-8 interviews...and applying to 150-200 programs.  At first I thought perhaps this may have been because those people posting about it had weak stats...but its definitely not the case, a large amount of the offshore IMG Canadians are getting a statistically significantly less amount of interviews compared to the past cycle with no red flags. The only discernable reason for this is due to the perception of the SON quota, which they have received as direct reasons from programs that were otherwise very Canadian friendly last cycle.  

 

Many of them receiving interviews will still likely match though, but definitely not as many options as last year.

 

On a related note, it seems that my handful of Canadian friends at USMD and USDO schools aren't being as affected as off-shore IMGs, perhaps because programs recognize that those students can fall back on F1 visa and re-try for J1in the unlikely event of not getting the SON...or just confounding factor that they are US based grads etc.  

 

At face value it doesn't seem Canadians at USMD/DO schools are noticing as big of a difference in interview invites due to the SON/J1 issue compared to Canadian IMGs at offshore schools...

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The risk isn't as great as made out to be. Lets think about it for a second. If you are actually coming onto this forum and posting about it, you are already likely pretty serious. You will be surprised at the people who go abroad without thinking this kind of thing through enough, those more or less comprise a good chunk of the people who drop out. 

 

The FM match rate is 73%, but you have to take into account huge huge advantages you offer in the non-US IMG pool. You speak English natively, you understand american culture, you are not switching mid career so you are young and more easily trainable. These are all big advantages to PIs that will make them want to take you over another non-US IMG. 

 

When you think about it, if you put in the effort and you are willing to take anything and try matching to both US and Canada, you have a decent chance of actually matching. It means huge sacrifices, but its potentially doable as long as you've exhausted your options back home. 

 

If we talk about the quota for J1s, even if lets say the FM number exceeds the quota by the time you match. If the quota is 800 and the number wanting the quota is 825, your chance of actually being that 25 that doesn't get the J1 is honestly very small. So its a minor hiccup and another stressor but its not a deal breaker. 

 

US-born IMGs don't have that much higher of a match rate compared to non-US IMGs. They have all the advantages you mention - English speaking, understand American culture (better than Canadians), are young and easily trainable, but they also have zero citizenship or visa issues. Canadians don't have huge huge advantages over other non-US IMGs. 

 

And let's contextualize what "decent chance" of matching means. Yes, ~75% isn't a horrific match rate. Yet, it also means ~25% of people don't match. 1 in 4 chance of losing isn't a big gamble if you're betting 20 bucks in a friendly game of poker, but isn't great odds when you're essentially betting with your prospects in life. That also assumes the match rate will remain as it is. Again, if you can afford to lose years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe it's worthwhile, but I don't recommend it for the vast majority of people without vast sums of money to spare. You also have to be pretty flexible during this whole process because "success" can mean matching to a program in an undesirable location, in an undesirable field, a program of poor relative quality, or any combination of those three.

 

Maybe I just fail to understand some people's obsession with becoming a physician. There are lots of careers in health care and outside of it for smart, hard-working, caring individuals to make a difference in a satisfying and well-remunerated way that don't come with the risks or downsides of pursuing an MD abroad.

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US-born IMGs don't have that much higher of a match rate compared to non-US IMGs. They have all the advantages you mention - English speaking, understand American culture (better than Canadians), are young and easily trainable, but they also have zero citizenship or visa issues. Canadians don't have huge huge advantages over other non-US IMGs. 

 

And let's contextualize what "decent chance" of matching means. Yes, ~75% isn't a horrific match rate. Yet, it also means ~25% of people don't match. 1 in 4 chance of losing isn't a big gamble if you're betting 20 bucks in a friendly game of poker, but isn't great odds when you're essentially betting with your prospects in life. That also assumes the match rate will remain as it is. Again, if you can afford to lose years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe it's worthwhile, but I don't recommend it for the vast majority of people without vast sums of money to spare. You also have to be pretty flexible during this whole process because "success" can mean matching to a program in an undesirable location, in an undesirable field, a program of poor relative quality, or any combination of those three.

 

Maybe I just fail to understand some people's obsession with becoming a physician. There are lots of careers in health care and outside of it for smart, hard-working, caring individuals to make a difference in a satisfying and well-remunerated way that don't come with the risks or downsides of pursuing an MD abroad.

Even if you don't match the first time though, you can just reapply the next year. Poland's tuition isn't hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's 12k euros per year which I am able to pay for 4 years even now. I'd be out of school without debt, not matching wouldn't matter that much. I could use the year to travel or improve my application and do it once again. 

 

I don't understand how this is that much worse than paying 500k CAD (at MSUCOM for example, not including living expenses) for a DO program in the US if you want to become a family physician anyways. 

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Just go and do it, you already know the risks. Like you said debt won't be that much...still 15k eurox4yr and living costs + interest is at least 100-150k CAD. Not that bad, but yeah better than 500k

I've listened to Gohan's advice and decided to wait it out first and improve my application for Canadian schools before I go. I'm still only 22.

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Even if you don't match the first time though, you can just reapply the next year. Poland's tuition isn't hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's 12k euros per year which I am able to pay for 4 years even now. I'd be out of school without debt, not matching wouldn't matter that much. I could use the year to travel or improve my application and do it once again. 

 

I don't understand how this is that much worse than paying 500k CAD (at MSUCOM for example, not including living expenses) for a DO program in the US if you want to become a family physician anyways. 

 

Chances of matching in subsequent attempts are considerably lower than the first time around. You're right, it's not a one-and-done situation, but reapplications are no safety net for IMGs.

 

The cost of going overseas isn't solely about tuition. Canada has relatively low tuition - not quite Poland-level low, but not far off - and the average person here still ends up over $100k in debt. Living expenses, interest payments, and the many, many supplementary costs of medical education make things add up pretty quickly.

 

Yes, USMD and USDO schools are more expensive. But they also come with a near-guarantee of success and come with a lot more career options (USMD more than USDO). Medical school is an investment and investments require consideration of not only cost but payoff. The payoff with USMD and USDO schools is higher and more assured than it is with the IMG route.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So my UBC results came back and I got rejected pre interview. 

 

TIME STAMP: 3:46 PM
Interview Invite: Regret
Early/Regular Deadline: Regular
GPA: 82.25
AGPA (if applicable): 85.07
MCAT: above cutoff
ECs: Had about 15 things filled out, travelling, volunteering at a clinic for a few weeks, big brother for 2 years, language tutor for a year, 4 months of research, have my own computer business. 
Year: UG
Geography: IP
NAQ (if applicable): 27.49
AQ (if applicable): 23.96

 

TFR: 51.45
TFR interview cut off: 52.5
So I was only off by 1.05 TFR score to get the interview for UBC. That's much higher than I thought, I thought the maximum I would get was 45 TFR. I guess I shouldn't really consider going outside of Canada an option at this point. This is the first time I've ever applied to medical school so I had no idea where I stood, just people kept telling me my ECs aren't nearly enough and that i'd need 2 more years of full time volunteering to even get close to making up for my gpa. 
I'm volunteering at 4-5 more places this year but I only started in December so it would only be a few months added till June to my ECs however their quality is good. Includes homeless shelter, helping a aboriginal student with short term memory loss etc. 

Any thoughts on this? 

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So my UBC results came back and I got rejected pre interview. 

 

TIME STAMP: 3:46 PM

Interview Invite: Regret

Early/Regular Deadline: Regular

GPA: 82.25

AGPA (if applicable): 85.07

MCAT: above cutoff

ECs: Had about 15 things filled out, travelling, volunteering at a clinic for a few weeks, big brother for 2 years, language tutor for a year, 4 months of research, have my own computer business. 

Year: UG

Geography: IP

NAQ (if applicable): 27.49

AQ (if applicable): 23.96

 

TFR: 51.45

TFR interview cut off: 52.5

So I was only off by 1.05 TFR score to get the interview for UBC. That's much higher than I thought, I thought the maximum I would get was 45 TFR. I guess I shouldn't really consider going outside of Canada an option at this point. This is the first time I've ever applied to medical school so I had no idea where I stood, just people kept telling me my ECs aren't nearly enough and that i'd need 2 more years of full time volunteering to even get close to making up for my gpa. 

I'm volunteering at 4-5 more places this year but I only started in December so it would only be a few months added till June to my ECs however their quality is good. Includes homeless shelter, helping a aboriginal student with short term memory loss etc. 

 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

See my advice above, and keep beefing your application up for the next cycle - you are close!

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So my UBC results came back and I got rejected pre interview. 

 

TIME STAMP: 3:46 PM

Interview Invite: Regret

Early/Regular Deadline: Regular

GPA: 82.25

AGPA (if applicable): 85.07

MCAT: above cutoff

ECs: Had about 15 things filled out, travelling, volunteering at a clinic for a few weeks, big brother for 2 years, language tutor for a year, 4 months of research, have my own computer business. 

Year: UG

Geography: IP

NAQ (if applicable): 27.49

AQ (if applicable): 23.96

 

TFR: 51.45

TFR interview cut off: 52.5

So I was only off by 1.05 TFR score to get the interview for UBC. That's much higher than I thought, I thought the maximum I would get was 45 TFR. I guess I shouldn't really consider going outside of Canada an option at this point. This is the first time I've ever applied to medical school so I had no idea where I stood, just people kept telling me my ECs aren't nearly enough and that i'd need 2 more years of full time volunteering to even get close to making up for my gpa. 

I'm volunteering at 4-5 more places this year but I only started in December so it would only be a few months added till June to my ECs however their quality is good. Includes homeless shelter, helping a aboriginal student with short term memory loss etc. 

 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

 

You are really close, I would definitely apply again next year. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The above advice is solid; here is a few other points from an insider's perspective to consider:

 

-based on your overall academic profile, you should not have any major issues landing FM (not necessarily at a top academic site though) in the US through Jag within the near future -- barring major adverse life events or personality flaws that would hinder you during rotations/interviews. The SoN changes will likely become a somewhat bigger issue going forward not just for residency but also fellowship training as Health Canada tries to manage healthcare expenditure. The problem is not just forecasts of decreasing SoNs for the future, but also the increasing number of Canadians studying abroad trying to snag one after matching in the States. The caps for FM and IM were not breached this year. As mentioned above, FM's high cap will provide a better buffer compared to e.g. Rads despite the different match rates.

 

-Dividing CMSPA numbers by four to evaluate Jag's stats is not the best approach: Jag takes far fewer students than other Polish schools (Warsaw, Poznan, Lublin, Silesia, etc.): a max of 40 people a year in the 4 year program; matriculating class sizes are usually in the low to mid 30's. Attrition/blockage is not near Caribbean (30-50%) rates, but since being approved for US DoE loans this year (=> the need to keep up USMLE pass rates >75%) the administration has signalled that they will be more strict about barring under-performing students from taking the Step without decent compNBME scores. I would guess 20-25% overall attrition+block going forward for the 4 year program. Moreover, the residency placement lists that you have seen in this thread or on the school website are not off the mark: traditionally, about half of the graduating class has ended up with a residency in the US/Canada, and another 20% get one in England/Poland/rest of Europe. The school does not provide miracles, but they do have linkages to select residency programs, helpful alumni/graduating classes, and a decent reputation with programs in the US. YMMV, of course

 

-If you are set on FM in the US, then financial compensation is not at the top of your selection criteria, but you still need to consider the difference in training length as well as the tuition/CoA between the two options -- MSUCOM is, btw, uniquely unaffordable for out of state apps. Theoretically speaking, waiting another round for acceptance into a Canadian school and then jumping through hoops to get accredited in the States will mean somewhat of an overall financial hit compared to the immediate Polish route, but if you are this close to getting in at home, I would stay put and try again: as mentioned by Commons, you might discover a burning passion for another speciality later down the road; an IMG's chances for non-primary care matches in the US are not close to those of a CMG's at home/US. Also, I assume that you know the difference in practising FM in Canada vs. in the US, so I won't get on a high horse on that topic.... Btw, the 12 week rule for rotations is generally applicable (there are a lot of exceptions and twists to this) to those who are aiming to match in NY state; otherwise, you may ignore the rule -- and many do since NY state IMG residency spots are often filled in by linked Caribbean grads. Gluck. 

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