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Value Of Volunteering


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So it turns out that being busy building one's CV is just as important in med school as trying to get in (if not more so). Is there any benefit to doing volunteer work? I moved provinces so I don't have the connections I used to, but I'm interested in getting connected with the community again. I would pursue work in areas that I have personally enjoyed, but I'm also concerned about whether I should be doing something else instead (aka is it all about research and leadership/advocacy roles, something big time)? This would be during school. If anyone has CaRMS insight, will this be an efficient use of time? 

 

Thanks for your input!

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So it turns out that being busy building one's CV is just as important in med school as trying to get in (if not more so). Is there any benefit to doing volunteer work? I moved provinces so I don't have the connections I used to, but I'm interested in getting connected with the community again. I would pursue work in areas that I have personally enjoyed, but I'm also concerned about whether I should be doing something else instead (aka is it all about research and leadership/advocacy roles, something big time)? This would be during school. If anyone has CaRMS insight, will this be an efficient use of time? 

 

Thanks for your input!

 

For CaRMS in isolation it's probably not worth it. That said, I started doing some new volunteer work in med school and am generally glad I did. It's certainly not going to hurt when CaRMS rolls around, even if it doesn't really help.

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Thanks for the replies guys. though to be honest it's hard to believe that they are completely useless. Are research productivity and reference letters the only things that have any effect during CaRMS then? Studying extra hard feels like a waste of time when GPA doesn't matter in any way anymore, so I always feel like I should be doing something more. I'm not interested in going into something crazy competitive, just clueless and I want to at least keep my doors open

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The problem with not studying now is that your knowledgebase (or lack thereof) will be exposed during clerkship, when your reference letters and evaluations matter. I had the same mentality as you and I suffered for it during clerkship, wishing I had worked harder preclerkship.

 

Frankly, this advice that you don't have to studying because it's pass/fail is harmful to throw around, and probably comes from other preclerkship students who don't know what they're talking about.

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The problem with not studying now is that your knowledgebase (or lack thereof) will be exposed during clerkship, when your reference letters and evaluations matter. I had the same mentality as you and I suffered for it during clerkship, wishing I had worked harder preclerkship.

 

Frankly, this advice that you don't have to studying because it's pass/fail is harmful to throw around, and probably comes from other preclerkship students who don't know what they're talking about.

I'm interested in your opinion. I'm at McGill, which still mainly relies on didactic teaching like UofT. Therefore, it's just powerpoint, and regurgitation when the exam comes. What do you think about this kind of learning? I personally try to supplement my own learning by reading other stuff, but I feel like this type of education is severely flawed for long term retention.

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It depends really on the preceptors and the core rotations.

In IM, your preceptors are going to ask a bunch of questions and test you in front of your fellow colleagues. In psych or emergency, not as much.

However, studying to become a better clerk who knows about the plan and the treatment, it is not just for grades or C.V, but for your personal knowledge and career.

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Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for asking this through an online forum), but I'm certainly not saying that it's ok to accept lower standards in school and I completely agree with the fact that we're studying for life now and not just to pass a test so we should learn as much as possible. It's just that right now I feel like I can and should be doing more while also staying on top of school work. Looks like research is the only productive thing?
On the contrary, the vibe that I'm getting from preclerks is that it's important to get involved in community work and committees for residency but that's not what people here seem to believe

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I'm interested in your opinion. I'm at McGill, which still mainly relies on didactic teaching like UofT. Therefore, it's just powerpoint, and regurgitation when the exam comes. What do you think about this kind of learning? I personally try to supplement my own learning by reading other stuff, but I feel like this type of education is severely flawed for long term retention.

 

My personal opinion: BORING

 

I've had enough of that learning in undergrad ffs.

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Depends on what you mean by getting involved. Many students sign up for the volunteering/community events/committees that their class participates in, so these activities may not stand out, unless you had a significant leadership role or impact. Do the community work you're interested in for the good of your soul, not for CaRMS.

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I feel that volunteer work, especially those that you enjoy is good for your emotional well being. I used to get 90s in first year, but I literally only worked and did nothing else - no exercise, barely any clubs, no class parties, mostly b/c I perceived my class to be very intelligent and I needed to put in that extra effort to keep up to them. However working ALL the time is extremely draining but 1 year later, I probably remember only 30-50% of it. Now, I'm spending more time doing volunteer work and though my marks aren't as high as before, I feel like my med school experience has more 'substance' to it. 

Sometimes patients might ask me about how med school is going, and instead of telling them about the exams I just had or the glasgow coma scale I memorized last night, I could tell them about my volunteer experiences.

 

It's definitely important to work hard and it's a lot of work to get 90s but at the end of the day, it's just as important to be a 'relatable' person than a walking textbook. 

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Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for asking this through an online forum), but I'm certainly not saying that it's ok to accept lower standards in school and I completely agree with the fact that we're studying for life now and not just to pass a test so we should learn as much as possible. It's just that right now I feel like I can and should be doing more while also staying on top of school work. Looks like research is the only productive thing?

On the contrary, the vibe that I'm getting from preclerks is that it's important to get involved in community work and committees for residency but that's not what people here seem to believe

 

The number of theories fellow pre-clerks have about CaRMS is wide ranging and not always based on good information. Listen to those directly involved in the CaRMS process, particularly faculty. Research gets mentioned by these individuals as helpful (though not strictly necessary for most programs). Everything else in pre-clerkship (volunteering, committee positions, club involvement, etc.) tends to be in this diffuse category of "good", where programs like seeing them, but aren't going to give an applicant much of a boost for having an extensive EC record. Having a completely bare CV might stand out in a negative way, but most med students have something on there, so there's not much point of doing anything just for the sake of CaRMS, or stretching yourself too thin with ECs.

 

Do what you enjoy with the time you have free. Studying's important, but not that important - my rule was always that if I was within 1 standard deviation of the average (and a healthy ways away from the fail line), I wouldn't get too concerned. Yeah, having a good base knowledge helps in clerkship, but doing well on pre-clerkship tests doesn't necessarily lead to having a good font of knowledge in clerkship. In any case, being able to read around your cases in clerkship is way more useful in terms of impressing people on rotation - there's so much pre-clerkship doesn't even touch on.

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Also one thing I forgot to mention is that some medical schools such as U of T has scholarships for each year given on the basis of non-academic involvement i.e. involvement in clubs that does not include doing research. Depending on the level of debt you have, this can be helpful and also something you can include on your CV as well.

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I'm interested in your opinion. I'm at McGill, which still mainly relies on didactic teaching like UofT. Therefore, it's just powerpoint, and regurgitation when the exam comes. What do you think about this kind of learning? I personally try to supplement my own learning by reading other stuff, but I feel like this type of education is severely flawed for long term retention.

 

That kind of teaching is definitely suboptimal, but it should only make up a fraction of your learning. Putting in your time at home is expected and it's great that you're pooling different resources. I think come clerkship, you'd be surprised at what you retain. At the very least, it would take much less for you to relearn a few things than the next guy who didn't bother to learn it in the first place. 

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding (that's what I get for asking this through an online forum), but I'm certainly not saying that it's ok to accept lower standards in school and I completely agree with the fact that we're studying for life now and not just to pass a test so we should learn as much as possible. It's just that right now I feel like I can and should be doing more while also staying on top of school work. Looks like research is the only productive thing?

On the contrary, the vibe that I'm getting from preclerks is that it's important to get involved in community work and committees for residency but that's not what people here seem to believe

 

You might have too much of that padding the resume mentality that helped you get into med school. That strategy is no longer applicable from med school to residency. It may feel like you're doing "nothing with your time" when you're studying now, but you're in fact setting yourself up for success in clerkship. Your overall performance for each rotation will not only comprise of your work ethic and affability, but also how thorough your consults are, how fast you do them, how many pimp questions you can answer, etc. At the end of the day, it will be painfully obvious to all the residents and the staff who the outstanding, good, mediocre, and terrible med students are. Your evaluations and reference letters will reflect that appropriately, and will matter much more than whether you worked at a some soup kitchen or built any orphanages.

 

Even research itself is highly overrated, but it's better than volunteering. At least you get exposure with some staff with research.

 

I feel that volunteer work, especially those that you enjoy is good for your emotional well being. I used to get 90s in first year, but I literally only worked and did nothing else - no exercise, barely any clubs, no class parties, mostly b/c I perceived my class to be very intelligent and I needed to put in that extra effort to keep up to them. However working ALL the time is extremely draining but 1 year later, I probably remember only 30-50% of it. Now, I'm spending more time doing volunteer work and though my marks aren't as high as before, I feel like my med school experience has more 'substance' to it. 

Sometimes patients might ask me about how med school is going, and instead of telling them about the exams I just had or the glasgow coma scale I memorized last night, I could tell them about my volunteer experiences.

 

It's definitely important to work hard and it's a lot of work to get 90s but at the end of the day, it's just as important to be a 'relatable' person than a walking textbook. 

 

That's great that you're enjoying your experiences. The OP asked whether volunteering matters for Carms. My answer as a PGY-3 resident who matched to his first choice program (which I decided on before Carms interview invites).. is NO.

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Even research itself is highly overrated, but it's better than volunteering. At least you get exposure with some staff with research.

 

 

 

I tend to disagree. If you're able to pump a lot of pubs out, PDs look at that very favorably. 

 

Research and research funding is a big variable when it comes to how med schools are ranked.

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I think that if you happen to publish in a good journal as a first author as a med student, it is pretty impressive. Otherwise, the med students often do summer research and it results in poster presentations, it is to your advantage.... but I don't think that PD will pick one candidate because he presented his abstract in a conference. 

The clerkship evaluations and LORs are more important IMO. 

For studying during preclerkship, there is no grades if you got 60s or 80s...but during clerkship, your knowledge is constantly tested by residents and by attendings. How much time you take to do a consultation, how you present it, and your plan and treatments are often asked. Also, study for your future patients. One day, you will be an attending who has important decisions to take in a fraction of seconds :)

I tend to disagree. If you're able to pump a lot of pubs out, PDs look at that very favorably. 

 

Research and research funding is a big variable when it comes to how med schools are ranked.

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As a first-year medical student, I am very interested in your opinion. Could you comment on what we should try to read/learn with the goal of building a solid foundation that is useful for clerkship? Presumably, everyone in the same class should have studied the same materials, right?

 

Also, I have heard comments that some knowledge we learn in pre-clerkship is not too relevant to clinical practice, and thus will likely be forgotten. How do we know what knowledge is more relevant/useful, and hence more worth spending time on?

 

That kind of teaching is definitely suboptimal, but it should only make up a fraction of your learning. Putting in your time at home is expected and it's great that you're pooling different resources. I think come clerkship, you'd be surprised at what you retain. At the very least, it would take much less for you to relearn a few things than the next guy who didn't bother to learn it in the first place. 

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That's great that you're enjoying your experiences. The OP asked whether volunteering matters for Carms. My answer as a PGY-3 resident who matched to his first choice program (which I decided on before Carms interview invites).. is NO.

Hold on - you matched to your first choice program, while taking a relaxed attitude towards studying in preclerkship, but are now condemming the very approach that worked just fine for you? That doesn't quite add up.

 

From what I've seen, the relationship between preclerkship studying and clerkship performance is pretty minimal. I've seen heavy studiers struggle and more relaxed studiers excel. And this is early on in clerkship, when preclerkship should have the greatest effect. I don't doubt there's probably some positive association between preclerkship study habits and clerkship performance, but it's an awfully weak one. Moreover, time spent studying doesn't seem to be the main factor - if anything, efficient studiers are doing better than time-intensive studiers because they've learned how to do more with less (especially on blocks where time is a luxury).

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As a first-year medical student, I am very interested in your opinion. Could you comment on what we should try to read/learn with the goal of building a solid foundation that is useful for clerkship? Presumably, everyone in the same class should have studied the same materials, right?

 

Also, I have heard comments that some knowledge we learn in pre-clerkship is not too relevant to clinical practice, and thus will likely be forgotten. How do we know what knowledge is more relevant/useful, and hence more worth spending time on?

 

Go along with your lecture material and supplement with textbooks and uptodate at home. The more you know, the better off you will be.

 

You will most definitely forget a lot by 3rd year but the difference between you and the next guy is that it will take you a lot less to relearn it or learn new but related topics. You won't forget everything, which means you can answer a few lucky pimp questions during rounds that others can't. It all helps for your image.

 

You may think that some concepts are irrelevant now, but chances are they are fundamental to the understanding of higher level material in the future. Furthermore, your attendings and senior residents will know what level of knowledge to expect from you. You may get asked to draw a wigger's diagram by a cardiologist, or a JVP wave by an internist, or to name the layers of the abdominal wall in gen surg.

 

You won't know what's truly irrelevant but I suggest you err on the side of too much vs. too little.

 

Hold on - you matched to your first choice program, while taking a relaxed attitude towards studying in preclerkship, but are now condemming the very approach that worked just fine for you? That doesn't quite add up.

 

From what I've seen, the relationship between preclerkship studying and clerkship performance is pretty minimal. I've seen heavy studiers struggle and more relaxed studiers excel. And this is early on in clerkship, when preclerkship should have the greatest effect. I don't doubt there's probably some positive association between preclerkship study habits and clerkship performance, but it's an awfully weak one. Moreover, time spent studying doesn't seem to be the main factor - if anything, efficient studiers are doing better than time-intensive studiers because they've learned how to do more with less (especially on blocks where time is a luxury).

 

Things worked out for me but it doesn't mean that my approach is advisable by any means. I was way behind at the start of clerkship and busted my butt catching up. I always worked hard on the wards, had a good attitude, and didn't offend anyone along the way. Those things probably saved me, but I only got a handful of Carms interviews. Had I been stronger I might have gotten more. 

 

I suppose when I mentioned putting in the time it's a bit misleading. My point is that your knowledgebase will be judged during clerkship, and you need to acquire as much of it during perclerkship as you can, however works best for you. I can't speak for the kids who knew more than others while studying less.

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