Could Use Some Opinions. 5 Year Irish Medical Program?

[MedMaybe3563]

I'm an undergraduate halfway through my second year and I'd love an opinion about my situation from anyone really. I'm very strongly considering Ireland for medical school for a few reasons. I have an EU passport so I am guaranteed a residency if I finish. I've always wanted to leave my city honestly. I've lived here all my life, the average price of an old house in my city just hit over 1.8 million dollars and is rapidly rising. My city has just been ranked third most expensive for housing in the world. It is absolutely insane. Raising a family here is not something I see myself doing anymore. I realize the tuition for Ireland is way higher but I'm extremely interested in a career as a psychiatrist. It's not a decision I have made lightly and I've done extensive research and talked to some practicing psychiatrists. I am in a financial position to put a serious dent in the fees for an Irish med school. I'd still graduate with debt, but not as much and I could probably pay it off within a few years. So these are my primary reasons for wanting to leave and consider an Irish school seriously. 

 

My GPA right now is not stellar. My first year I actually didn't plan on going into medicine at all and was juggling a lot of personal matters so that kind of hurt me. I don't like to blame other things for my problems. Although my personal matters were tough, I did slack off. I ended up with a 3.3 GPA my first year which I have increased to 3.5 now. I know it's not great, and needs work.  As long as I keep getting good grades and have a strong upward trend, I project my GPA to increase by a fair amount. I still have 2.5 years so I'm trying to be optimistic and working as hard as I can. That being said, I am not coming from a strong science background as I am going for a BA as opposed to a BSc, although I have taken a few intro science courses but nothing advanced at all. Despite the fact that I have taken a bit of chemistry and biology and did fine, the courses I have taken have mostly concentrated on things like biomedical ethics, cognitive neuroscience/behaviour. How would someone coming from a background that is not very strong in things like biochemistry/organic chemistry/calculus do in Ireland? It's a little intimidating because I know so many med applicants are biochem/biology/other science majors. 

 

To my surprise though I found out a while back after confirming with the McMaster medical school admissions office that they admit some BA students with no science backgrounds every year and they apparently do fine, so I was thinking of writing the CARS section of the MCAT and applying there once I have my GPA much higher. 

 

As far as EC's go right now I would say they are below average-average. My strongest EC component is probably that I've been volunteering at a health clinic once a week for 3 years. I, have done 6 months of hospital volunteering as well, physician shadowing, tutored international students. I plan to build this up a lot more in the next couple years but that's what I have as of now. 

 

So, thoughts? Advice? You can be blunt, I don't mind. Looking for realistic/honest answers. Thanks.

[JohnGrisham]

Since you're early on in your undergrad, have EU citizenship and can afford Ireland... I'd say go and just get on with it there. Make sure you can really afford it though. You'd for sure need to do at least 3 more years of undergrad in Canada before you have a shot... You'd be halfway done your MD if you went to Ireland.

 

I only reccomend given you have your EU citizenship. Do the 5yr programs require MCAT too?

[Edict]

With your GPA right now you'd probably need to raise it more and do very well on the MCAT to get into Ireland. On the issue of being of an arts background, its going to present with some challenges however it won't be unmanageable at all. 

 

For the 5 year programs you'll probably need a higher GPA because they don't look at the MCAT. 

[JohnGrisham]

With your GPA right now you'd probably need to raise it more and do very well on the MCAT to get into Ireland. On the issue of being of an arts background, its going to present with some challenges however it won't be unmanageable at all. 

 

For the 5 year programs you'll probably need a higher GPA because they don't look at the MCAT. 

Surely a 3.5 at the university level is enough for 5 year programs? I've seen SDN posts of similar GPAs of people entering TCD and NUI

 

 

[MedMaybe3563]

Since you're early on in your undergrad, have EU citizenship and can afford Ireland... I'd say go and just get on with it there. Make sure you can really afford it though. You'd for sure need to do at least 3 more years of undergrad in Canada before you have a shot... You'd be halfway done your MD if you went to Ireland.

I only reccomend given you have your EU citizenship. Do the 5yr programs require MCAT too?

 

No. Five year programs do not require the MCAT. However to my knowledge, if you have finished a bachelors degree you are not eligible to apply for a five year one and youd have to write the MCAT and apply for an accelerated 4 year one.

[Edict]

Surely a 3.5 at the university level is enough for 5 year programs? I've seen SDN posts of similar GPAs of people entering TCD and NUI

 

 

 

From what i've been seeing people with GPAs of around 3.5 are not all getting in. Some are but a lot aren't and the ones getting in with a 3.6 are often applying to a 4 year program with a low 30s MCAT. 

 

I saw someone with a 3.5 GPA and 34 MCAT get in to one school but not any others.. Another person with a 3.5+ GPA and a 31 MCAT got into a school. But again these are people who are applying to the 4 year with a fully completed UG degree and sometimes a masters. 

 

I also saw someone with a 25 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA get into GEM at a school in Ireland with research ECs and an upward trend, but quite possibly not the 5 year program. So its also possible to get in there. 

 

Another person got into GEM with a 3.5+ GPA and a 36 MCAT. 

Another person got in with a 3.3 GPA and a 30 MCAT. 

 

Its definitely getting more competitive, someone with a 3.5 GPA and no MCAT applying to a 5 year has a chance but in my opinion it isn't that high. An upward trend will help. Having the MCAT completed and the fully completed UG probably helps a bit imo. 

[JohnGrisham]

From what i've been seeing people with GPAs of around 3.5 are not all getting in. Some are but a lot aren't and the ones getting in with a 3.6 are often applying to a 4 year program with a low 30s MCAT. 

 

I saw someone with a 3.5 GPA and 34 MCAT get in to one school but not any others.. Another person with a 3.5+ GPA and a 31 MCAT got into a school. But again these are people who are applying to the 4 year with a fully completed UG degree and sometimes a masters. 

 

I also saw someone with a 25 MCAT and a 3.2 GPA get into GEM at a school in Ireland with research ECs and an upward trend, but quite possibly not the 5 year program. So its also possible to get in there. 

 

Another person got into GEM with a 3.5+ GPA and a 36 MCAT. 

Another person got in with a 3.3 GPA and a 30 MCAT. 

 

Its definitely getting more competitive, someone with a 3.5 GPA and no MCAT applying to a 5 year has a chance but in my opinion it isn't that high. An upward trend will help. Having the MCAT completed and the fully completed UG probably helps a bit imo. 

Interesting,

 

Isn't the point of the 5 year programs to be direct-entry from high school? Or is that 6 year programs(different countries confuse me!). So how would one compare someone with a 3.5 at a university level...to someone with a 4.0 from High school etc?

[Edict]

Interesting,

 

Isn't the point of the 5 year programs to be direct-entry from high school? Or is that 6 year programs(different countries confuse me!). So how would one compare someone with a 3.5 at a university level...to someone with a 4.0 from High school etc?

those are 6 year programs. 5 year programs are for people who've done at least one year of uni or sometimes people who've done IB or full AP. 

[medhope15]

I know someone who now does surgery (almost done residency) in the USA who is Canadian and completed one of the 6 year programs after undergrad and 2 failed application cycles in Canada (not a single interview likely due to missing GPA cutoffs by 1-2%). So it is doable and possible to come back to North America (USA more so than Canada). They did many electives in the States while studying in Ireland and are currently very happy with their life in Boston.

[Edict]

I know someone who now does surgery (almost done residency) in the USA who is Canadian and completed one of the 6 year programs after undergrad and 2 failed application cycles in Canada (not a single interview likely due to missing GPA cutoffs by 1-2%). So it is doable and possible to come back to North America (USA more so than Canada). They did many electives in the States while studying in Ireland and are currently very happy with their life in Boston.

 

Just wondering which residency program is this? 

[3change]

...

[_ _]

I know someone who now does surgery (almost done residency) in the USA who is Canadian and completed one of the 6 year programs after undergrad and 2 failed application cycles in Canada (not a single interview likely due to missing GPA cutoffs by 1-2%). So it is doable and possible to come back to North America (USA more so than Canada). They did many electives in the States while studying in Ireland and are currently very happy with their life in Boston.

There will always be stories like with, but when n=1, it's easy to forget that for every person who does find residency this way, there's one who doesn't. 

Ultimately, it's always going to be a risk. More so each year it seems. A very pricey risk

[JohnGrisham]

Coming from the UK is actually anecdotally less risky than carribs in terms of perceptions for US residency specifically. Then considering you get the right to residency in the UK, which in most cases is relatively easily transferrable back to Canada.

[medhope15]

Canada is one of the most difficult places in the world for its citizens to enter med school. Within 2 years of graduating over 80% of students in ireland have some residency. There is also never any guarantee that even in Canada you will get into your residency of choice.

I may have one or two specific stories but know people who have graduated from ireland each of the past 4 years and they all say everyone matches unless they do very poorly on board exams (and there is always the one or two people who have no place in med to begin with but managed to get in overseas)

I say go for it instead of hoping for a lottery win in Canada.

[jnuts]

I'd add my vote to going abroad.  

[rmorelan]

There will always be stories like with, but when n=1, it's easy to forget that for every person who does find residency this way, there's one who doesn't. 

Ultimately, it's always going to be a risk. More so each year it seems. A very pricey risk

 

yeah.....you don't hear a lot of from the very much so silent majority who runs into problems.

[jnuts]

yeah.....you don't hear a lot of from the very much so silent majority who runs into problems.

Very true in general, but if you're an EU citizen like this poster it's a different situation.  And the people who run into problems aren't exactly silent; this forum is littered with warnings and horror stories.   

[JohnGrisham]

Very true in general, but if you're an EU citizen like this poster it's a different situation.  And the people who run into problems aren't exactly silent; this forum is littered with warnings and horror stories.   

Exactly.

 

The only time i recommend going abroad is in this unique situation where the person has EU citizenship, and is early on in their education perhaps(or doesn't stand a real chance in Canada without spending a lot of extra time.)

[rogerroger]

Good luck returning to Canada, you are going to need it. The vast majority never return, that's just reality. In 2016 you are crazy to do this without holding an EU passport.

 

If you go overseas consider it a one way trip in regards to practicing medicine.

[JohnGrisham]

Good luck returning to Canada, you are going to need it. The vast majority never return, that's just reality. In 2016 you are crazy to do this without holding an EU passport.

 

If you go overseas consider it a one way trip in regards to practicing medicine.

OP does have an EU passport

[medhope15]

In my opinion it comes down to: would you rather have a medical degree (a professional degree + skills recognized and applicable worldwide) or work in Canada (assuming if you apply 100times only in Canada and never get in)...is it more important to you to have medical skills or to live in a specific place forever?

 

You'll hear a lot of people say they want to be chief surgeon at the biggest teaching hospital in downtown of some big Canadian city. Not everyone gets that. Even if you get into Canada, you're still competing for preceptors who will give good references on clerkship, for residency spots then later for fellowship and for jobs. There's no guarantee you will end up where you want to. There are Canadian grads who don't match at all.

 

So that's why I say take your 50:50, and remember this is a 50:50 only for returning to Canada. You will still graduate with the skills of a physician which you can apply anywhere in the world. Especially if you finish at a respectable school like RCSI or Cambridge.

 

I think the logic of applying endlessly only in Canada is for those who have other reasons keeping them here (spouse, kids) or those who are just very turned off by the idea of living abroad.

[JohnGrisham]

In my opinion it comes down to: would you rather have a medical degree (a professional degree + skills recognized and applicable worldwide) or work in Canada (assuming if you apply 100times only in Canada and never get in)...is it more important to you to have medical skills or to live in a specific place forever?

 

You'll hear a lot of people say they want to be chief surgeon at the biggest teaching hospital in downtown of some big Canadian city. Not everyone gets that. Even if you get into Canada, you're still competing for preceptors who will give good references on clerkship, for residency spots then later for fellowship and for jobs. There's no guarantee you will end up where you want to. There are Canadian grads who don't match at all.

 

So that's why I say take your 50:50, and remember this is a 50:50 only for returning to Canada. You will still graduate with the skills of a physician which you can apply anywhere in the world. Especially if you finish at a respectable school like RCSI or Cambridge.

 

I think the logic of applying endlessly only in Canada is for those who have other reasons keeping them here (spouse, kids) or those who are just very turned off by the idea of living abroad.

Or who can't afford it.

[medhope15]

Or who can't afford it.

Fair enough but there is always OSAP for those from ontario to cover a bit of the cost, bank loans, personal financial management. Yes nobody wants a debt but at the end of the day it is money which you will just have to repay. A mortgage for your education. And after 4-5 years depending on the program you do, you start making some money again as a resident. Might mean living with roommates longer than someone who went straight into the workforce after under grad, but again, in 10 years do you want to picture yourself as a doctor?

[JohnGrisham]

No. Osap, LOC are not enough these days especially. You have to have family money or saved money from a past career(that most premeds dont have). For most even with all the loans it is simply not affordable in that they cannot get the money together for the cost of attendance.

 

The sentiment stands, but your statement on affordability is very off base.

[medhope15]

I am by no means wealthy but yes with LOC and OSAP you can make ends meet. Certain schools will allow you to compete for merit based scholarships esp after 1st year, and you are allowed to hold a student job in the regions I've researched. Yes, it will mean living very cheaply for 4 years.