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Usmd Carms Match


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Hello,

 

I am applying to US and Canadian Medical Schools this year. I have interviewed at some pretty good schools in the States (Mayo, Vanderbilt, Cornell, etc.) and was wondering if I choose to go to one of these schools if I would competitive with CMGs in the CARMS match upon graduating? I would hope to still have my options open for coming back to Canada after medical school.

 

Thanks!

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Yes you'd be fine. Still have to make Canadian connections and do some electives like everyone else.

But the biggest challenge will be, deciding to rank less preferable programs in Canada at the risk of matching lower down on your list and foregoing the US match all together(it is usually after CaRMS, hence you'd get pulled from NRMP if you matched CaRMS) OR only ranking the top preference programs in Canada that you'd want, knowing that you would then match NRMP if you didn't match Canada etc.

Lot of variables here, what specialty you want, how competitive you are for them in both Canada and the US etc.

It likely won't be until 3rd year that you will have a much better idea of where you stand and are able to have better decision making abilities. 

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Very difficult to make the connections for both countries.  It's like applying to two specialties.

I disagree, depending on what specialties and how early/late one decides upon those specialties, it is very possible to set yourself up for an extremely successful Match season on both sides of the border.  The key is to recognize that many American schools limit the total amount of extramural electives you can take.  Therefore, it is imperative that you use up the amount of time available to you for setting up Canadian electives in an economic and strategic manner, and to be very on top of your game and be ready to shine during those electives.

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It really depends on your definition of "decent"

 

It will also depend on whether you are going for a competitive speciality. In this age where even CMG's are getting rejected for family medicine interviews, not anything is certain.

 

But if you make the right contact, work hard and do lots of CAD electives, you stand as good as a chance as anyone (but probably slightly less than a CMG who does the exact same thing)

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It really depends on your definition of "decent"

 

It will also depend on whether you are going for a competitive speciality. In this age where even CMG's are getting rejected for family medicine interviews, not anything is certain.

 

But if you make the right contact, work hard and do lots of CAD electives, you stand as good as a chance as anyone (but probably slightly less than a CMG who does the exact same thing)

I think the major disadvantage as an American grad is that you are competing with Canadians with their spots. So you have to be power or better than the Canadian Medical grads on paper.

 

Chances of matching is about 50% if you look at the stats from previous years matches. I personally have never met at us grad applying for CaRMS in a specialty other than family medicine.

 

But you have a chance of matching back to Canada better than an IMG. Unfortunately I think there is still a bias towards Canadian grads having gone through the match twice a an American grad. Make sure you do well on your steps, grades , mspe, do enough electives in Canada. Back up with the u.s. program because there's a 50% chance according to previous years stats that you will not match in Canada

 

Letters of rec and Interviews are very important in Canada and usually get only one interview a day. Canadian interviews were a lot more stressful in my opinion. During my us interviews they always put you up in a nice hotel buy dinner at a fancy restaurant the night before and with interviews it was always very low stress. a lot of the time I was the only candidate there that day and was interviewed anywhere from 4 - 10 times. Always got an interview with the program director and associate director. You will learn more about these details later

 

At the end of the day if you want to match in Canada go to a Canadian school if you want to match in the US go to American school. The landscape of residence in Canada is definitely changing it was a lot easier to match as an American 10 years ago for specialties like family medicine. Now it's very competitive.

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I agree that the disadvantage is that you are competing with Canadian grads, but otherwise my experience has been that USMGs who want to go home end up matching in CaRMS.

 

Take that stat of 50% of USMDs matching with a grain of salt - I have known many Canadian USMDs who ranked only 1 Canadian school and otherwise expected to match in NRMP.

 

If you put the effort in, do the electives, get Canadian letters and otherwise make yourself a good applicant in all the standard ways (research, volunteering etc) you can do great in CaRMS as a USMG.

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I don't know if there's a real disadvantage in USMGs competing against Canadian grads.  Elective performance is extremely important and in my experience no preceptor cares about where the student went for medical school.  Likewise you need to get Canadian LORs because American letter writers are not known to the Canadian system.  I've known cases where people matched back to Canada for Internal, Plastic Surgery, Orthopedic Surgery, Radiology, Radiation Oncology.  Like I said, electives and letters (and doing a GREAT job on them, you can't just show up and expect 'facetime' to do the magic) are extremely important.

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There is a disadvantage in the sense that. Assuming everything else is identical (grades, LOR, MSPE, research), A CMG will beat out a USMG, everytime, period. Yes, USMG are better off than IMG because they have less restrictions on getting electives (no IMG lottery etc) but still needs to work harder than CMG in order to match to even less competitive programs like family med. Another CMG have is their home school. If all else fails they can get some form of support from their home school where as USMDs are often left in the dark since American schools know next to nothing about CARMS. So because of this, competitive specialties that are hard to get in for CMGs are even less likely for USMDs because there are basically 1:1 spots for CMG/seats already. Programs will not take a less known quantity for already brilliant known applicants to them.

 

I know couple of USMD matched to pediatrics and orthopedic surgery in carms

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There is a disadvantage in the sense that. Assuming everything else is identical (grades, LOR, MSPE, research), 

The situation you describe cannot possibly exist because Canadian grads don't have grades or class rankings, whereas American grads do and it's all on paper for everybody to see.

 

 

I can't over-stress the importance of electives and LORs.  Poor performance on electives won't get people interviews regardless of whether they are CMG or USMG.  Likewise no one cares where you went to school if you had yourself together during electives, this was my experience this cycle.  The situations I know of where people failed to match on CaRMS are usually where there were other deficiencies in their applications that also played to their disadvantage in the American match.  I think higher-caliber American schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell are worth considering because who knows, you might end up wanting to go into a specialty where doing residency in the US is more advantageous.  Mayo is a good school but it's in the middle of nowhere (Rochester, MN), although that's another matter entirely.

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The situation you describe cannot possibly exist because Canadian grads don't have grades or class rankings, whereas American grads do and it's all on paper for everybody to see.

 

 

I can't over-stress the importance of electives and LORs.  Poor performance on electives won't get people interviews regardless of whether they are CMG or USMG.  Likewise no one cares where you went to school if you had yourself together during electives, this was my experience this cycle.  The situations I know of where people failed to match on CaRMS are usually where there were other deficiencies in their applications that also played to their disadvantage in the American match.  I think higher-caliber American schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell are worth considering because who knows, you might end up wanting to go into a specialty where doing residency in the US is more advantageous.  Mayo is a good school but it's in the middle of nowhere (Rochester, MN), although that's another matter entirely.

 

Thanks everyone for the opinions :)

 

Birthoggudube, I was wondering if you could expand a bit on this portion of your comment "you might end up wanting to go into a specialty where doing a residency is the US is more advantageous". What are some reasons that doing some residencies in the States is advantageous?

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Thanks everyone for the opinions :)

 

Birthoggudube, I was wondering if you could expand a bit on this portion of your comment "you might end up wanting to go into a specialty where doing a residency is the US is more advantageous". What are some reasons that doing some residencies in the States is advantageous?

Significantly more spots and options.

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Significantly more spots and options.

 

Just 2 more things to consider - cost and citizenship.

 

ivy league med schools easily run into the 50k US$$ range just for tuition with housing/other costs probably another 10-20k USD a year. So average debt can be easily 200-300 k USD (not Canadian) I know that crossing the border for my Cdn classmates without citizenship was a hassle with their visas

 

Another thing to consider if you don't have a green card or US citizenship that can affect where you can match for residency. i.e. at our schools IM program filters out everyone without US citizenship because they don't sponsor visas

 

not having a greencard/US citizenship can even affect your rotation schedule. i.e. at our school we had to rotate through the VA healthcare system. because that hospital was also a military base only US citizens were allowed to rotate. The VA also has any elective you can think of but it was only open to US citizens.

 

But like everyone has sort of said on this forum coming back to Canada is doable (better chance than IMG and you have a reliable backup in the USA) but you will have to jump through more hoops (juggling electives in Canada and US, interviewing in both US and Canada, write both US/Cdn exams) 

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Just 2 more things to consider - cost and citizenship.

 

ivy league med schools easily run into the 50k US$$ range just for tuition with housing/other costs probably another 10-20k USD a year. So average debt can be easily 200-300 k USD (not Canadian) I know that crossing the border for my Cdn classmates without citizenship was a hassle with their visas

 

Another thing to consider if you don't have a green card or US citizenship that can affect where you can match for residency. i.e. at our schools IM program filters out everyone without US citizenship because they don't sponsor visas

 

not having a greencard/US citizenship can even affect your rotation schedule. i.e. at our school we had to rotate through the VA healthcare system. because that hospital was also a military base only US citizens were allowed to rotate. The VA also has any elective you can think of but it was only open to US citizens.

 

But like everyone has sort of said on this forum coming back to Canada is doable (better chance than IMG and you have a reliable backup in the USA) but you will have to jump through more hoops (juggling electives in Canada and US, interviewing in both US and Canada, write both US/Cdn exams) 

Oh I agree completely - the OP was asking about doing residency, not medical school.

 

Yeah there are visa issues, but really they are overblown. Most places easily sponsor J1, and mid-tier/higher tier programs regularly have the means to support H1B.  Especially since you are removing the IMG factor its an automatic bump up in options. In your programs case they have a filter, but i know for a fact that some programs with this filter will bypass it if you reach out to them directly. My friend at a west-coast MD school ran into this exact situation this cycle, and he emailed the PD directly and they said given that they are a AMG they would have no hesitation ranking them.  That was mostly in place(For that particular program mind you, definitely some programs would NOT bypass filters), to filter out IMGs and FMGs.   

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Disclosure: I've been a selection committee member for many years. I am an IMG but did undergrad in the US. Interpret bias as you will.

 

1)I agree in general with the statement a CMG will match over an equally qualified USMD. Canadian programs pathologically go with the known quantity.

 

2)Canadian programs will not be able to understand USMLE scores or grades (for better or worse)

 

3)Canadian programs will largely not care what US medical school you went to. The concept of tiers of medical education is completely alien to them. A big name school may help you get an interview, but when it comes to ranking you--at best--there's no way to quantify that against a Canadian grad. At worst, someone petty in the room may feel threatened by a top tier applicant. It's brutal and unfair but happens.

 

4)Programs are not equally competitive on both sides of the border. Eg. Rads and Ortho are unbelievably competitive in the US--not so much in Canada. (I'm sure that there are reciprocal examples)

 

5)Visa issues are real. Please read all of the discussions about Statements of Need on the IMG groups. Policies can change unpredictably during your training. Make sure you're prepared to mitigate and/or accept that risk.

 

6)Not all specialty training is reciprocally recognized. It's not as much of an issue in the US where you can work without board certification, but it's a huge issue if you're planning to come to Canada and you're in one of those specialties. Don't assume that the two streams are always interchangeable.

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  • 3 weeks later...

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-CaRMS-Forum-Data-Deck_FINAL_EN.pdf

 

As warned, the data for USMGs this year is bad.  My reading of the above presentation is that 65 registered and 18 matched.   I hope that most of them dropped out for better options in the US. From my experience, I'm guessing that the drop from 65 registrants to 33 final participants was due to those students failing to meet application requirements or not getting any interviews.

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http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-CaRMS-Forum-Data-Deck_FINAL_EN.pdf

 

As warned, the data for USMGs this year is bad.  My reading of the above presentation is that 65 registered and 18 matched.   I hope that most of them dropped out for better options in the US. From my experience, I'm guessing that the drop from 65 registrants to 33 final participants was due to those students failing to meet application requirements or not getting any interviews.

Sigh. 

 

Again, many USMDs who apply to CaRMS, apply VERY selectively. They do not all apply broadly as they should to ensure a match, like Canadian MDs do. Why? Because they would rather seek better options that may be more desirable for them in the U.S, than maybe going to less desirable Canadian locations or programs. Why rank a place you would not like to go in Canada, when you know you can probably end up at a decent place in the U.S.? Either way, you are away from home(assuming the Canadian province you did not rank or program you did not rank is outside of your home region).

 

This has been consistent every year the USMG match to Canada being low.  If everyone looked at the numbers the same way you do, they would think that "oh look Irish schools have a higher match rate to Canada than USMD schools, they must be a better option!".  Every non-Canadian MD applicant category (USMD, USDO, Irish, Aussie, Carrib, UK etc etc), will ALWAYS have much lower match rates than Canadian MDs...for obvious reasons. 

 

If you think of it, it actually makes perfect sense. Canadians at US medical schools, have significantly more options to choose from than Canadian MDs. It's only natural that at least some, if not a sizable amount, would rank some US residency higher on their rank lists than some Canadian programs. This naturally leads to the USMG match percentage in CaRMS being lower.  If you look at the overall combined match percentage for Canadian USMGs, it is likely to be very close to their Canadian MD counterparts. 

 

There is always more to the story.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hey guys, i'm also in a similar situation.  I'm actually currently studying in the USA, just finished my 2nd year.  I have two quick questions:

 

1) In those stats, do they differentiate the USMGs who are Canadian Citizens vs. just US citizens applying to Canada or does it not matter.

 

2) I'm really interested in Urology.  Is there even hope for a Canadian citizen USMG to match into Canadian urology program or is that just out of question?  I've read some threads here where IMGs are encouraged to forget about matching in that program, I was wondering how much better or worse is it for USMGs.

 

Thanks!

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Hey guys, i'm also in a similar situation.  I'm actually currently studying in the USA, just finished my 2nd year.  I have two quick questions:

 

1) In those stats, do they differentiate the USMGs who are Canadian Citizens vs. just US citizens applying to Canada or does it not matter.

 

2) I'm really interested in Urology.  Is there even hope for a Canadian citizen USMG to match into Canadian urology program or is that just out of question?  I've read some threads here where IMGs are encouraged to forget about matching in that program, I was wondering how much better or worse is it for USMGs.

 

Thanks!

1) US citizens cannot apply to CaRMS. You have to be a canadian citizen or PR.

 

2). URO is competitive in Canada, heck it is in the US too. IF you can get some electives in Canada, go for it. WIthout electives, you are applying blind - and as well without a homeschool advantage.  

 

I assume you are writing step 1 soon. Let the result of that determine if you will gun for URO or not. If you don't knock it out of the park, then i would focus on something else.

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Hey guys, i'm also in a similar situation.  I'm actually currently studying in the USA, just finished my 2nd year.  I have two quick questions:

 

1) In those stats, do they differentiate the USMGs who are Canadian Citizens vs. just US citizens applying to Canada or does it not matter.

 

2) I'm really interested in Urology.  Is there even hope for a Canadian citizen USMG to match into Canadian urology program or is that just out of question?  I've read some threads here where IMGs are encouraged to forget about matching in that program, I was wondering how much better or worse is it for USMGs.

 

Thanks!

To have a shot in urology, you need to do electives at the schools where you intend to apply, so they get to know you and want you (thereby putting you on a shortlist of applicants before the interview). 

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