none Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Hi, I'm helping my Grade 12 daughter to pick an undergrad program. She will be making the final choice; I'm just helping with research. She is still waiting for a response from McMaster BHSc and Waterloo CAP (conditional acceptance to pharmacy). If she doesn't get into either one, she can pick an offer from the following list: 1. McGill Life Sciences 2. Western Medical Sciences 3. Queens Life Sciences 4. Waterloo Life Sciences McGill and Western are her top two choices. These are the pros and the cons as we see them. McGill Pros: - Strong brand name (possible plus if she decides to apply to a medical school in the US?) - Montreal - Cheaper rent (?) - Better opportunities for a variety of ECs (because Montreal) - Ontario students compete against weaker CEGEP students who have lower entrance requirements Cons: - Tough grading system; hard to earn high GPA (this is a show stopper in my opinion) - Generic life sciences program as opposed to more focused medical sciences program at Western - The school seems to be underfunded - Low rankings on the student satisfaction surveys - Lack of integration with OMSAS; extra hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) - Montreal night life is a distraction Western Pros: - 10K entrance scholarship for 95+ average - Grading system is more generous; easier to earn high GPA - Medical sciences program as opposed to generic life sciences at McGill - Better rankings on student satisfaction - The school seems to be better funded than McGill - OMSAS integration; less hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) Cons: - No brand name recognition in the US - Party school - London is not Montreal - Less opportunities for a variety of ECs (because London) Q1. Are we wildly off mark with any of the pros and cons? Did we miss any? Q2. Which school would you pick and why? Q3. Should we give a serious consideration to any other program on the list? Thank you. P.S. For the record, I am not one of those crazy parents who strong arm their kids towards a medical career. This is a 100% her own choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASerialKiller Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 McGill Cons: - Montreal night life is a distraction So I take it these are pros and cons from your perspective, not your daughter's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Not necessarily. She knows her weak spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemiosmosis11 Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Not necessarily. She knows her weak spots. It's good that you're looking out for your daughter, but I would be cautious about posting for your daughter's sake in a forum geared towards students. Not that everyone is like this, but a lot of people might respond negatively to your post because it's not from your daughter who is speaking up for herself. Especially in the case because we are seeing too many people wanting to become doctors not because they want to, but because of parental pressure. But I can speak I think for a lot of people from Western and McGill that yes, GPA is king, and Western might be the better choice in that regard. However, it's really important that your daughter makes the decision herself, because getting that GPA is going to take more than just decent grades from highschool. Is she okay with being a certain distance from home? Is she okay with the school? Will she be okay going to a school with few friends? I really strongly believe that university is not really a test of intelligence, but moreso a test of personality, emotional stability, and time management to work hard. These things might seem trivial, but for a 18-19 year old they aren't. I've seen too many people in 1st year wanting to become doctors but eventually falling out because of these trivial things. So, in general, I think some of your points aren't as important as the ones I mentioned here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 chemiosmosis11, I don't plan to post a lot, so hopefully I won't ruffle too many feathers. Thank you for the rest of your response. You made some great points. Still, McGill grading system seems unforgiving when I look at the OMSAS conversion table. To me, this is a red flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASerialKiller Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 chemiosmosis11, I don't plan to post a lot, so hopefully I won't ruffle too many feathers. Thank you for the rest of your response. You made some great points. Still, McGill grading system seems unforgiving when I look at the OMSAS conversion table. To me, this is a red flag. I think you have that backwards. From the schools I'm familiar with that use the same percentage ranges as Western: A+ = 90-100 = 4.00 A = 85-89 = 3.90 A- = 80-84 = 3.70 At McGill the A- conversion is the same, but everything higher than an A- is called an A for a 4.00. When I was applying my GPA was significantly higher at McGill because of this. I'm not saying it's easier to get a high GPA at McGill, but you certainly aren't at a disadvantage when converting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemiosmosis11 Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Well, another thing to consider is that universities are much more standardized than highschools. In general, I think most schools are pretty much the same difficulty, with the exception of the apparently dreadful University of Toronto first year life sci. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 I think you have that backwards. http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf Western (column 3) 90-100 = 4.00 85-89 = 3.90 80-84 = 3.70 You end up with 3.90+ GPA if you keep your grades 85 or higher. Seems doable. Even an occasional 80-84 doesn't penalize you harshly. McGill (column 8) A = 4.00 A- = 3.70 B+ = 3.30 You need straight A/A- to earn a competitive GPA. B+ is a serious set back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASerialKiller Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 http://www.ouac.on.ca/docs/omsas/c_omsas_b.pdf Western (column 3) 90-100 = 4.00 85-89 = 3.90 80-84 = 3.70 You end up with 3.90+ GPA if you keep your grades 85 or higher. Seems doable. Even an occasional 80-84 doesn't penalize you harshly. McGill (column 8) A = 4.00 A- = 3.70 B+ = 3.30 You need straight A/A- to earn a competitive GPA. B+ is a serious set back. That B+ at McGill is equivalent to the 77-79 range at Western, which is the same 3.30. Everything at McGill is the same except instead of distinguishing between A+ and A (4.0 and 3.9) they just call them all As and give you a 4.0 edit: No matter where you are, grades below 80 (B+ and down) are bad news for pre-meds. It sounds less harsh when you say 80 and above, not A- and above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stangster Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Whilst I can't give any insight into McGill, I can let you know a little bit about Western. Firstly, Western is NOT a party school in the sense that there are parties everywhere. Yes, there are many bars downtown people can go to, but those people make the decision to go there. Parties in residence are minimal now, as most people who want to party go to the bars or house parties. If you want to go out and drink, there will absolutely be opportunities any day during the week if you seek them out, however that's the same at any university. No one's pressuring you to drink, and there are a LOT of people here who focus on their academics as opposed to partying. In terms of the medical science program itself, it's very much geared towards enticing individuals into research based on the medical sciences, and so the program and upper year modules are incredible for people who love the core biological sciences. The transition into university academics and testing, being much more application based and almost entirely multiple choice, throws a lot of people off in first year GPA-wise, but it's manageable with good study habits and like-minded peers. In terms of ECs, I have to disagree about a lack of variety. London has TONS of volunteer opportunities, you just have to look for them. The school itself has so many clubs, intramural sports and volunteer opportunities as mentors/tutors as well, however once again it's all about you actively looking for these opportunities. Western's Career Central is always posting new openings and opportunities. Am I biased towards thinking Western is a great school? Of course, I chose to go there. However, I just wanted to clear up a couple of your thoughts regarding the school and city, because they don't match up with what I've experienced thus far. Either way, I highly encourage you take your daughter to both schools and have her get a feel for the atmosphere and see where she can imagine herself spending the next 4 years. They are both science programs, Western's just has a fancy name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 That B+ at McGill is equivalent to the 77-79 range at Western, which is the same 3.30. Everything at McGill is the same except instead of distinguishing between A+ and A (4.0 and 3.9) they just call them all As and give you a 4.0 edit: No matter where you are, grades below 80 (B+ and down) are bad news for pre-meds. It sounds less harsh when you say 80 and above, not A- and above NotASerialKiller, did you go to McGill? This is purely anecdotal, but I read a few online posts -- probably right here in this forum -- claiming that A at McGill is very hard to get. Any truth to that? I hear what you are saying about two systems being very similar. But I am not convinced. If I am a prof, I wouldn't have a second thought about giving B+ to a "good" student. Yet, as you said, it's bad news for pre-meds. Western system seems more forgiving on paper. I guess I need to see more hard evidence to change my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Stangster, great post #10. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_ _ Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Pros: - Strong brand name (possible plus if she decides to apply to a medical school in the US?) Doesn't matter at all for med schools here, and for the US, be prepared to pay ~200K out of pocket-on top of the maximun student loans/line of credit for her to go to the US. You need to show up front that you personally have the entire sum of money for the degree, generally. - Montreal - Close to home (Ottawa) - Opportunities to maintain her French (she went to French immersion) - Cheaper rent (?) - Better opportunities for a variety of ECs (because Montreal) Not true, any of the schools you listed have significant opportunities, and the downside of Mcgill/Toronto is even little things are more competitive/inaccesible to students almost - Ontario students compete against weaker CEGEP students who have lower entrance requirements Not sure what you mean. Are you asking about grades/bell curves? Because again, this is simply untrue. As someone who attended high school in both ON and QC in the senior years, QC is producing very, very competent students. CONS - Lack of integration with OMSAS; extra hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) No, again, there are no hoops at all since she didn't do CEGEP. What matters for med school is your home province, not where you went to school. Mcgill, in particular, will be very familiar with OMSAS. Very. - Montreal night life is a distraction I would say this occurs at any university, small town or big city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASerialKiller Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 NotASerialKiller, did you go to McGill? This is purely anecdotal, but I read a few online posts -- probably right here in this forum -- claiming that A at McGill is very hard to get. Any truth to that? I hear what you are saying about two systems being very similar. But I am not convinced. If I am a prof, I wouldn't have a second thought about giving B+ to a "good" student. Yet, as you said, it's bad news for pre-meds. Western system seems more forgiving on paper. I guess I need to see more hard evidence to change my opinion. Well keep in mind that I'm not describing my opinion about grading at McGill, I'm just telling you how that chart works for OMSAS conversions. If you're asking how hard it is to get those marks, that's much more a matter of opinion, but most people here will either tell you it's similar or that it might be a bit harder at UofT and McGill than others because they attracted more competitive students. If it ends up being objectively harder at McGill it'll be because of the students they have, not because of what they happen to call their grades relative to other schools. edit: No I did not attend UG at McGill, several other schools of varying size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 - Ontario students compete against weaker CEGEP students who have lower entrance requirements Not sure what you mean. Are you asking about grades/bell curves? Because again, this is simply untrue. As someone who attended high school in both ON and QC in the senior years, QC is producing very, very competent students. McGill minimum entrance grade for ON students is about 93-95 (varies by year/program). The minimum grade is quite a bit lower for QC students. To me, this means than ON cohort at McGill is stronger than QC cohort at McGill. Please let me know if my logic is off. I am sure that QC schools are capable of producing very competent students, but that's not the point here. - Lack of integration with OMSAS; extra hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) No, again, there are no hoops at all since she didn't do CEGEP. What matters for med school is your home province, not where you went to school. Mcgill, in particular, will be very familiar with OMSAS. Very. I know she can't apply to QC medical schools. I am talking about applying to Ontario medical schools from McGill. Strictly the mechanics of the application process. Do you have to mail more paperwork because McGill is in a different province? Is the process more error-prone because McGill computer systems are not integrated with OMSAS? Do you have to pester McGill admins to do their work on time? What happens if McGill support union goes on strike? I have no idea how the process works. Just want to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_ _ Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 McGill minimum entrance grade for ON students is about 93-95 (varies by year/program). The minimum grade is quite a bit lower for QC students. To me, this means than ON cohort at McGill is stronger than QC cohort at McGill. Please let me know if my logic is off. I am sure that QC schools are capable of producing very competent students, but that's not the point here. NO. The grading schemes are entirely different between the 2 provinces. That;s like trying to compare high school and university grades. They are two wholly different things and comparing numbers is useless and arbitrary. Again, having been through both systems, I know this firsthand. They are as different as high school and college. The QC group is equally strong. Even if they weren't, how would this effect your daughter? I know she can't apply to QC medical schools. I am talking about applying to Ontario medical schools from McGill. Strictly the mechanics of the application process. Do you have to mail more paperwork because McGill is in a different province? NO...unless mailing 1 transcript in 4 years is 'a lot' of paperwork. Is the process more error-prone because McGill computer systems are not integrated with OMSAS? NO. Do you have to pester McGill admins to do their work on time? What happens if McGill support union goes on strike? You are understanding this incorrectly. Everyone applies to OMSAS in the exact same way. Mcgill will do nothing-as will any other school. They will mail a transcript. That is it, and all. The university will have no idea she applied to medical school-that is something she will on her own, regardless of school. Again, these are teeny tiny details. Whether or not she needs to ask mcgill to mail her transcript, rather than have it sent electronically like ON schools to OMSAS, is not a reason to attend another school or not. I didn't go to mcgill, so I'm not biased, but these are tiny details in 4 years of someone's life. I have no idea how the process works. Just want to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62E Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Q1. Are we wildly off mark with any of the pros and cons? Did we miss any? At every university there are bars and a party scene; I wouldn't say "night life" is a disadvantage specific to McGill nor "party scene" specific to Western. Also there is no difference between Medical Science and Life Science: they're just different names for pre-med programs and those programs all vary by school. If you really want to learn more about each program, you have to go to each school's website and look at the course progression & talk to someone who has gone through the program (or is nearly done). I recommend against looking at online reviews of undergraduate programs posted by anonymous individuals (they're often 1st or 2nd years who have a skewed perception of their program... often they're overly prideful of their program or they are venting out anger from doing poorly on a course). IMO the most helpful reviews are ones from individuals that have actually gone through the undergraduate process and have done well in their respective programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD2B2019 Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Hi, I'm helping my Grade 12 daughter to pick an undergrad program. She will be making the final choice; I'm just helping with research. She is still waiting for a response from McMaster BHSc and Waterloo CAP (conditional acceptance to pharmacy). If she doesn't get into either one, she can pick an offer from the following list: 1. McGill Life Sciences 2. Western Medical Sciences 3. Queens Life Sciences 4. Waterloo Life Sciences 5. Ottawa Biomedical Science 6. Ottawa Biopharmaceutical Science McGill and Western are her top two choices. These are the pros and the cons as we see them. McGill Pros: - Strong brand name (possible plus if she decides to apply to a medical school in the US?) - Montreal - Close to home (Ottawa) - Opportunities to maintain her French (she went to French immersion) - Cheaper rent (?) - Better opportunities for a variety of ECs (because Montreal) - Ontario students compete against weaker CEGEP students who have lower entrance requirements Cons: - Tough grading system; hard to earn high GPA (this is a show stopper in my opinion) - Generic life sciences program as opposed to more focused medical sciences program at Western - The school seems to be underfunded - Low rankings on the student satisfaction surveys - Lack of integration with OMSAS; extra hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) - Montreal night life is a distraction Western Pros: - 10K entrance scholarship for 95+ average - Grading system is more generous; easier to earn high GPA - Medical sciences program as opposed to generic life sciences at McGill - Better rankings on student satisfaction - The school seems to be better funded than McGill - OMSAS integration; less hoops to jump when applying to Ontario med schools (not sure about this) Cons: - No brand name recognition in the US - Party school - London is not Montreal - Less opportunities for a variety of ECs (because London) - Far from home (Ottawa) Q1. Are we wildly off mark with any of the pros and cons? Did we miss any? Q2. Which school would you pick and why? Q3. Should we give a serious consideration to any other program on the list? Thank you. P.S. For the record, I am not one of those crazy parents who strong arm their kids towards a medical career. This is a 100% her own choice. Please read http://www.macleans.ca/education/university/gambling-on-an-m-d/ You will find your answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Please read http://www.macleans.ca/education/university/gambling-on-an-m-d/ You will find your answers. I think I read it about 1000 times by now. Okay, a bit less. It doesn't really answer the most important question: which premed programs outside of McMaster Health Sci give you the best odds. The article doesn't include the data to figure out the success/failure rate per university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 NO. The grading schemes are entirely different between the 2 provinces. That;s like trying to compare high school and university grades. They are two wholly different things and comparing numbers is useless and arbitrary. Again, having been through both systems, I know this firsthand. They are as different as high school and college. The QC group is equally strong. Good to know. Thank you. Even if they weren't, how would this effect your daughter? It's a moot point given what you wrote above. Hypothetically speaking, if ON cohort was stronger than QC cohort, bell-curving would benefit ON students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freewheeler Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Going to any particular university in and of itself isn't going to provide a significant positive effect on medical school admissions chances. Sure there may be indirect benefits in terms of opportunities available, but how do you assess that? Does it really matter if there is a greater volume of opportunities available if the majority of them do not interest you? What if the ones you are interested in are especially competitive to apply for because of all of the keeners present? I wouldn't attend a school for a perceived greater # of opportunities while sacrificing other more important criteria outlined at the end of this post. A lot of it depends on the work ethic of the student, how they manage their time, stress, anxiety, their access to a social support network, etc. If you want the bullet points here it is: -goal should be 100% cdn med schools-- US and INTL isn't even looked at unless you are non-competitive in canada after applying in 3rd/4th yr uni -GPA is king-->select a program that you are passionate about and genuinely interested in, that offers a selection of courses that keeps you engaged, look at rate my profs reviews and course syllabi -MCAT...ace it--take it likely in second year summer after having done the courses that are covered within the MCAT content -Extracurriculars...get some employment experience (varied and continued preferably--something meaningful to you as well that allows you to develop CANMEDs skills), participate in meaningful volunteering engagements as well that are diverse and in alignment with your interests, do research if it interests you otherwise ignore it Focus should be on high grades, high mcat and developing CANMEDS skills via ECs as well as personal enjoyment, life balance and well-roundedness which can be done anywhere. I attended a school in the bottom half of that macleans list and I received multiple interviews IP & OOP as a first time applicant. Your daughter should go wherever she feels most comfortable, the program is most exciting to her and she has the strongest support network. 4 years of being at or near the top of your classes combined with work/volunteering and everything else that life can throw at you is stressful and exhausting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robclem21 Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Honestly, all of this aside, the only important thing is that your daughter goes somewhere that will ENABLE her to succeed because she is A) happy, comfortable, and C) motivated to succeed. None of the grading schemes, OMSAS, extra-curriculars, other BS matters if those 3 criteria aren't met. If she is smart, works hard, manages her time, then there is a way to get in to medical school no matter where you go. Easier grading, more opportunities, are not a guarantee of anything. What will matter, is if you pick a school that is well graded with what appears to be good opportunities and she is unable to succeed because she is stressed and unhappy. There are people in my class from some universities in Canada I have never even heard of. She needs to be somewhere where she will be able to be herself and enjoy her courses. The constant stress of thinking about applying to medical school will drive you nuts. None of the things mentioned in this thread matter if at the end of the day, she isn't happy where she is. Visit schools and pick the one that FEELS right. That is the only thing that matters as there are ways to accomplish everything else anywhere. My two cents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorAM Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 I think I read it about 1000 times by now. Okay, a bit less. It doesn't really answer the most important question: which premed programs outside of McMaster Health Sci give you the best odds. The article doesn't include the data to figure out the success/failure rate per university. Western's Bachelor of Medical Sciences sends about 35%? give or take to medical school every year, second to McMaster BHSc if i'm not mistaken. But I'm not sure why you would exactly care which school gives you the best odds? Aside from McMaster BHSc, every other Life Sci/Med Sci program is practically a carbon copy of one another. The only reason WU BMSc sends many to medical school is because the entering average consistently hovers around 90%, which means you're accepting very bright individuals. The program provides no advantage. Schulich Medicine doesn't even prefer BMSc grads (i'm very bitter about this btw). BUT a BIG (I repeat, BIG) advantage to choosing Western is that an 80+ is a 4.0 on the AMCAS scale, which of course is competitive in the US. & your worries about Western being a party school, a student will get what they want out of their University experience. Regardless of where you go, if you want to party, they're available. I never felt pushed or compelled to party in any way, & that's coming from someone who lived in the infamous Saugeen-Maitland Hall Residence. If you have any other questions regarding BMSc, feel free to PM Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted April 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 freewheeler, robclem21, DoctorAM Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_ _ Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Good to know. Thank you. It's a moot point given what you wrote above. Hypothetically speaking, if ON cohort was stronger than QC cohort, bell-curving would benefit ON students. The vast majority of universities, especially in science, do not ever bell-curve anymore. That's an american thing mostly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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