Palliative Care Salary?

[niceshrp]

Hey guys, 

 

I am wondering if anyone knows what you could make as full time palliative physician or even part time. 

 

I love palliative care, and I do not need to make much money, but it would be good enough to be at equivalent to having a moderate size family clinic.

 

And I do not think it's unreasonable to ask about future earnings as someone who may be interested in a field.  

 

Thanks!

[Arztin]

I talked to a palliative care physician recently and that physician told me it pays about the same as regular office FM. Keep in mind it's only applicable in Quebec.

[rmorelan]

Hey guys, 

 

I am wondering if anyone knows what you could make as full time palliative physician or even part time. 

 

I love palliative care, and I do not need to make much money, but it would be good enough to be at equivalent to having a moderate size family clinic.

 

And I do not think it's unreasonable to ask about future earnings as someone who may be interested in a field.  

 

Thanks!

 

hehehehe it is annoying people even feel guilty about asking about earnings in a particular field. It was one of the fields I was considering - my research area is degenerative brain disease so you can see the overlap. Pays less than average for internal medicine but still more than family medicine according to the people I talked to

 

If you really want to know deals I can try to and talk to people I know that just graduated in that sub-specialty - graduated literally yesterday in fact as the college results are out!

[niceshrp]

hehehehe it is annoying people even feel guilty about asking about earnings in a particular field. It was one of the fields I was considering - my research area is degenerative brain disease so you can see the overlap. Pays less than average for internal medicine but still more than family medicine according to the people I talked to

 

If you really want to know deals I can try to and talk to people I know that just graduated in that sub-specialty - graduated literally yesterday in fact as the college results are out!

 

 

Hey rmorelan,

 

I would really appreciate that! Yes, sometimes I do feel guilty but given that I have $200,000 to pay off, and the unstable job market, I have to ask.

 

Thanks again!

[choap10]

Hi, 

I work full-time as a FFS palliative care doc in a community setting doing inpatient, outpatient and community work. On average, I gross $360-420 k per year, with no overhead. In addition to a carrying a full patient load in hospital, I also carry 40-50 community patients at a time, which can make for a busy day if you're having to do home visits after being at the hospital. This figure also includes having to work about 6-9 weekends/year, as well. 

[niceshrp]

Hi, 

I work full-time as a FFS palliative care doc in a community setting doing inpatient, outpatient and community work. On average, I gross $360-420 k per year, with no overhead. In addition to a carrying a full patient load in hospital, I also carry 40-50 community patients at a time, which can make for a busy day if you're having to do home visits after being at the hospital. This figure also includes having to work about 6-9 weekends/year, as well. 

 

Thanks Choap10 for your answer! May I ask which province you work in, and if you trained in +1 palliative care? 

 

How long have you been doing this for and have you been enjoying it so far? Of course I loved the encounters I have had in palliative care and I am also planning to do more extensive electives in it, but I worry that perhaps you burn out after many years of dealing with terminally ill patients. I am also meeting up with other palliative physicians to hear their experiences as well. 

[MDinCanada]

On 6/7/2016 at 10:44 PM, choap10 said:

Hi, 

I work full-time as a FFS palliative care doc in a community setting doing inpatient, outpatient and community work. On average, I gross $360-420 k per year, with no overhead. In addition to a carrying a full patient load in hospital, I also carry 40-50 community patients at a time, which can make for a busy day if you're having to do home visits after being at the hospital. This figure also includes having to work about 6-9 weekends/year, as well. 

How many hours do you work per week?

[JohnGrisham]

2 hours ago, MDinCanada said:

How many hours do you work per week?

I can confidently say knowing 2 close palliative docs, that those numbers are atypical for the field - at least in my province!  Especially if only doing 6-9 weekends a year. Unless that is also including overnight in-hospital calls etc on a semi-frequent basis? 

[Haruba]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:54 PM, JohnGrisham said:

I can confidently say knowing 2 close palliative docs, that those numbers are atypical for the field - at least in my province!  Especially if only doing 6-9 weekends a year. Unless that is also including overnight in-hospital calls etc on a semi-frequent basis? 

I know a palliative care doc that makes around those numbers - though their practice includes more weeks of inpatient. They make a TON doing weekend call which they cover Friday-Sunday around once per month (they provide coverage for an entire zone - including hospice). She told me she can bill $7-8k from one of these weekends. To my knowledge, they do not take any overnight in-hospital call when they are on inpatient (taken care of by residents + extenders). 

[JohnGrisham]

35 minutes ago, Haruba said:

I know a palliative care doc that makes around those numbers - though their practice includes more weeks of inpatient. They make a TON doing weekend call which they cover Friday-Sunday around once per month (they provide coverage for an entire zone - including hospice). She told me she can bill $7-8k from one of these weekends. To my knowledge, they do not take any overnight in-hospital call when they are on inpatient (taken care of by residents + extenders). 

Definitely dependent by centre  and jurisdiction    Generally speaking Palliative fee codes, and nature of the work don't lend itself to "quick, easy " consults like GIM might in a a hospital setting etc.   But yes, money is there and can be made with hours + ext. coverage.

[Rorzo]

I'm a FFS palliative care physician in Ontario. 

The way billing works here, if you have a fair roster of patients (typically only possible by doing at least some community work) then those numbers are very easily attainable. Full time inpatient work is probably in the 250 range in pure billings, as noted above though if you can get call funding and cover weekends then you can certainly add on a bit (closer to 3-4k/weekend in my experience). This is without overhead though, so still coming out ahead compared to a typical family clinic. 

I try to be open with students and residents when they're with me, and if you're interested in pursuing a specialty as a career I'd try to at least hint at this during your rotations to at least figure out where these numbers are coming from. Yes there are people just being private about their income, but even when I'm trying to be open what makes this so hard is that in FFS it isn't that a certain specialty= a certain income, you have to understand what services lead to what outcome. I've personally had full time weeks between 2k-13k, and I have colleagues between 125k-800k/year - you can definitely make a fair living in palliative care but you won't have an idea of what you'll really make until you know your exact job.

[MDinCanada]

7 hours ago, Rorzo said:

I'm a FFS palliative care physician in Ontario. 

The way billing works here, if you have a fair roster of patients (typically only possible by doing at least some community work) then those numbers are very easily attainable. Full time inpatient work is probably in the 250 range in pure billings, as noted above though if you can get call funding and cover weekends then you can certainly add on a bit (closer to 3-4k/weekend in my experience). This is without overhead though, so still coming out ahead compared to a typical family clinic. 

I try to be open with students and residents when they're with me, and if you're interested in pursuing a specialty as a career I'd try to at least hint at this during your rotations to at least figure out where these numbers are coming from. Yes there are people just being private about their income, but even when I'm trying to be open what makes this so hard is that in FFS it isn't that a certain specialty= a certain income, you have to understand what services lead to what outcome. I've personally had full time weeks between 2k-13k, and I have colleagues between 125k-800k/year - you can definitely make a fair living in palliative care but you won't have an idea of what you'll really make until you know your exact job.

Thank you for this. I think it's so important to talk about income potential.

It's not the most important factor, but it is an important factor because medicine is a job after all. And it's really difficult to make career decisions with so little information.

[M3P0]

8 hours ago, Rorzo said:

I'm a FFS palliative care physician in Ontario. 

The way billing works here, if you have a fair roster of patients (typically only possible by doing at least some community work) then those numbers are very easily attainable. Full time inpatient work is probably in the 250 range in pure billings, as noted above though if you can get call funding and cover weekends then you can certainly add on a bit (closer to 3-4k/weekend in my experience). This is without overhead though, so still coming out ahead compared to a typical family clinic. 

I try to be open with students and residents when they're with me, and if you're interested in pursuing a specialty as a career I'd try to at least hint at this during your rotations to at least figure out where these numbers are coming from. Yes there are people just being private about their income, but even when I'm trying to be open what makes this so hard is that in FFS it isn't that a certain specialty= a certain income, you have to understand what services lead to what outcome. I've personally had full time weeks between 2k-13k, and I have colleagues between 125k-800k/year - you can definitely make a fair living in palliative care but you won't have an idea of what you'll really make until you know your exact job.

I'm not in medical school yet but I have 2 questions.

What is FFS? (probably obvious to everyone here but my cursory google search has failed me on this.... facial feminization surgery lol)

Regarding "I have colleagues between 125k-800k/year", what are some specific examples of decisions people have to make early in their career that place them on each end of that spectrum? Can a 125k/year doctor do something later in their career to increase their salary substantially, or have their early career decisions cemented where they'll be for their career?

[Rorzo]

35 minutes ago, M3P0 said:

I'm not in medical school yet but I have 2 questions.

What is FFS? (probably obvious to everyone here but my cursory google search has failed me on this.... facial feminization surgery lol)

Regarding "I have colleagues between 125k-800k/year", what are some specific examples of decisions people have to make early in their career that place them on each end of that spectrum? Can a 125k/year doctor do something later in their career to increase their salary substantially, or have their early career decisions cemented where they'll be for their career?

FFS is fee for service - you do something and the government pays you for it, as opposed to being on having fixed income per patient/hour/year. 

Doing my best not to be flippant - you'll understand why your second question doesn't make too much sense when you get in to medical school. While you're in medical school, your decisions will pretty much only affect which residency you end up in. When you've graduated residency, networking helps but jobs are jobs. Unless you're aiming for an academic position or in a specialty that is truly saturated you'll probably be able change jobs without too much hassle - but that only sets you up with a baseline patient population/care environment/location/support infrastructure. The 99th percentile outliers on the upwards end almost universally get there through the work they put in after they're established at a position, and by then no one cares what they've done earlier in their careers.