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Why Doesn't U Of T Take The Mcat Seriously?


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I was thinking more about re-adjusting the entire GPA system. If med schools had more access to class information, a program could automatically see where you stand compared to the class average in terms of %, rather than a 4.0 scale and z-score (because, as you said, some classes don't have normal distribution. So there could be a grade given to concrete amount of % above/below/equal to the class average. This still would essentially make it much tougher to do "well" in classes where the average is 90%, but maybe that's the appropriate consequence of taking a "bird" course? 

 

Essentially you are proposing a slightly modified version of what happens in Quebec, using the raw data from classes (which is a good suggestion).  However, there are a number of issues that seem to have happened. Initially apparently, some people went to CEGEPs which were perceived to have less academically strong students to have better class ranks (actually z-scores, but similar).  Later, programs were adjusted for perceived difficulty, but then getting into the better scoring program gave someone a significantly better shot.  I don't feel there any easy answers unfortunately.  

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Essentially you are proposing a slightly modified version of what happens in Quebec, using the raw data from classes (which is a good suggestion).  However, there are a number of issues that seem to have happened. Initially apparently, some people went to CEGEPs which were perceived to have less academically strong students to have better class ranks (actually z-scores, but similar).  Later, programs were adjusted for perceived difficulty, but then getting into the better scoring program gave someone a significantly better shot.  I don't feel there any easy answers unfortunately.  

 

I guess this works better for the typical premed applicant. Yeah, I can see how there would be too many holes...Man, maybe we give the admissions people too much shit...this is hard!

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I guess this works better for the typical premed applicant. Yeah, I can see how there would be too many holes...Man, maybe we give the admissions people too much shit...this is hard!

 

it is extremely hard - which is one major reason no one does it.

 

Related to this is that all degrees are considered equal. As a thought experiment an interesting question would be if you could perfect equalize all the grades would you still value say a engineer equally to a human physiology major? Take basically anything that directly would give you a job and thus not really care about the grade in the class - which is one major reason say engineering has lower grades - there is no need for grade inflation. It is almost like medical school - passing matters, not so much the actual grade. Somehow you get a competitive grade for medical school in one of those programs - probably means you are quite intelligent as you are performing way over your peers but not necessarily in a subject that is as useful as medicine (arguable point - and often is argued). The medical schools know that subject may not complete relate, but may currently one some level be counting on the fact that if you can do that well in a subject not related directly to much of medicine, you are probably still smart enough to actually do well in medicine itself. Grade equalization actually removes that, ha :)

 

Same with many other areas (very hard to get a 3.9 in most arts programs once you are out of the early on multiple choice style intro courses and get to the real stuff. Business programs are often ranked.......). Not every subject in university has been equally affected by grade inflation.

 

Ha - brainstorming strange ideas this Wed night.

 

The US handles all this simply with the MCAT - that is the entire point of that test. Don't care about what school you are at, or how what program, or what your GPA is or how it is affected by grade inflation or school policies. Instead here is a standardized test matched to the core academic skills doctors need to be able to do or learn. Let's cut to the chase as it were. Either you somehow have learned what we want you to know, or you haven't.

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Related to this is that all degrees are considered equal. As a thought experiment an interesting question would be if you could perfect equalize all the grades would you still value say a engineer equally to a human physiology major? Take basically anything that directly would give you a job and thus not really care about the grade in the class - which is one major reason say engineering has lower grades - there is no need for grade inflation. It is almost like medical school - passing matters, not so much the actual grade. Somehow you get a competitive grade for medical school in one of those programs - probably means you are quite intelligent as you are performing way over your peers but not necessarily in a subject that is as useful as medicine (arguable point - and often is argued). The medical schools know that subject may not complete relate, but may currently one some level be counting on the fact that if you can do that well in a subject not related directly to much of medicine, you are probably still smart enough to actually do well in medicine itself. Grade equalization actually removes that, ha :)

 

Same with many other areas (very hard to get a 3.9 in most arts programs once you are out of the early on multiple choice style intro courses and get to the real stuff. Business programs are often ranked.......). Not every subject in university has been equally affected by grade inflation.

 

 

The US handles all this simply with the MCAT - that is the entire point of that test. Don't care about what school you are at, or how what program, or what your GPA is or how it is affected by grade inflation or school policies. Instead here is a standardized test matched to the core academic skills doctors need to be able to do or learn. Let's cut to the chase as it were. Either you somehow have learned what we want you to know, or you haven't.

 

 

 

 

etc a say 3.9 GPA (which is extremely hard).

 

It really does break down when you are comparing non traditional applicants. You could end up giving somehow bonus points to engineers (a traditionally lower GPA degree) which is great to equalize etc.

 

Wow I never really thought about that, I guess class averages are often a reflection of the value students put in those grades rather than the class difficulty...hmmm...Also it's actually very difficult to say! I took one humanities class and I struggled with it so much, as opposed to breezing through 5 physics courses. The only objective difference between the two that I can think of is time. Engineers have less time for ECs overall. So is MCAT king then? By definition, it IS a standardize test..but all it really does is test how well you do on standardized tests... 

 

On the topic of bonuses, I think they should give a bonus to applicants who have applied multiple times. It shows perseverance and passion. I remember discussing with a friend of mine about if he's planning to pursue medicine when we were in second year and she said, "If it comes easy to me". I wonder how many lucky first time applicant, including myself, would have not pursued medicine if they had to apply again... Definitely an introspective Wednesday night...

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Wow I never really thought about that, I guess class averages are often a reflection of the value students put in those grades rather than the class difficulty...hmmm...Also it's actually very difficult to say! I took one humanities class and I struggled with it so much, as opposed to breezing through 5 physics courses. The only objective difference between the two that I can think of is time. Engineers have less time for ECs overall. So is MCAT king then? By definition, it IS a standardize test..but all it really does is test how well you do on standardized tests... 

 

On the topic of bonuses, I think they should give a bonus to applicants who have applied multiple times. It shows perseverance and passion. I remember discussing with a friend of mine about if he's planning to pursue medicine when we were in second year and she said, "If it comes easy to me". I wonder how many lucky first time applicant, including myself, would have not pursued medicine if they had to apply again... Definitely an introspective Wednesday night...

 

there are always these weird consequences of things - I really like studying those actually. So many times we want to do one thing and may even achieve that but there are secondary unintended effects :)

 

Take for instance giving a bonus to multiple appliers. That means on average as a global effect the class composition will be skewed towards people that applied more than once - bonus to any group will skew things towards that group. That would have the effect of on some level further increasing the average number of times people would have to apply before getting in (we can predict the effect but not how strong it would be). People that apply more than once ie keep going may not actually be like the average applicant - maybe they have the resources to keep applying, complete new degrees, have attended a masters program or PHD, or have a different personality type. Maybe they worked for a time. Now the class is skewed in another way perhaps. What impact would that have on specialty choice? Class dynamics? Where would those people want to work when they are done? Something else?

 

Ha......I am in an introspective mood.

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So is MCAT king then? By definition, it IS a standardize test..but all it really does is test how well you do on standardized tests... 

 

 

The scoring and administrative procedures associated with a test are what define it to be standardized.  Doing well on the MCAT is a different than doing well on other standardized tests.  There may be some cognitive attributes that would make doing well on the MCAT and other standardized tests more likely all things being equal, but this is hardly ever the case.  

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Same with many other areas (very hard to get a 3.9 in most arts programs once you are out of the early on multiple choice style intro courses and get to the real stuff. Business programs are often ranked.......). Not every subject in university has been equally affected by grade inflation.

 

So true! I did an English major and I consider the two A+s I managed to get (in upper year courses, go figure) nothing short of miracles. My overall GPA is pretty competitive here in the maritimes but I didn't stand a chance when I naively applied to Ontario schools last year. Luckily, it all worked out in the end for me but I cringe to think about fellow English majors applying in Ontario or as OOP applicants. Just my two cents :)

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Obviously we have no idea what UofT's actual reasoning is for not counting the MCAT very heavily. However, I have never been a fan of the MCAT because I think it's a test that puts applicants from wealthier backgrounds at somewhat of an advantage. I had to work throughout all my summers of undergrad, which left me with far less time to study than someone who could afford to have most of the summer off to spend on studying. And the MCAT prep courses are also quite expensive and require a significant time commitment as well.

I'm just going to add this as an anecdote. I work full-time, took no prep courses, and hadn't taken most of the suggested prerequisites, and I did fairly well on the MCAT. I don't think those things are very good excuses to not do well. You could definitely argue about whether or not the MCAT is effective in predicting future performance. But it's ultimately just one test focused on basic science and reading comprehension.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The francophone Quebec schools do that: however, there is a lot of inconsistency from school to school (i.e. which program is considered more challenging), the calculations are often changing, and from a statistical point of view class distributions are not necessarily normal.  If the class distributions are not normal, then calculating a z-score could often be misleading.  Higher scoring classes will have exponential distributions functions (starting at 4.0).  It's an interesting idea, although my understanding means that a highly selective program (like HealthSci) would actually end up with possibly higher Gpas under the Quebec system.  McGill it looks like does a tiny bit of adjusting.

You also get the issue of students who have little interest in certain programs pursuing a program solely to get a high CRU for the French schools. I know many people who entered physiotherapy, occupational therapy, pharmacy, nutrition, dentistry, etc. even though they didn't want a career in that profession. As someone who has wanted physio for years, it was frustrating to see students who hated going to class because they had little interest in the subject, and had only chosen the program to get a high score for med school applications.

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You also get the issue of students who have little interest in certain programs pursuing a program solely to get a high CRU for the French schools. I know many people who entered physiotherapy, occupational therapy, pharmacy, nutrition, dentistry, etc. even though they didn't want a career in that profession. As someone who has wanted physio for years, it was frustrating to see students who hated going to class because they had little interest in the subject, and had only chosen the program to get a high score for med school applications.

 

I can see why this would be frustrating- and potentially a loss for the programs involved (losing a number of people).  Odd that the selection criteria are so different in Quebec and outside, but there is the central role of the CEGEP in Quebec.  CEGEP grades in Quebec almost completely determine your future (at 19 or so), but outside of Quebec aren't really considered.

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I can see why this would be frustrating- and potentially a loss for the programs involved (losing a number of people).  Odd that the selection criteria are so different in Quebec and outside, but there is the central role of the CEGEP in Quebec.  CEGEP grades in Quebec almost completely determine your future (at 19 or so), but outside of Quebec aren't really considered.

Note that CEGEP grades determine your acceptance into undergrad (or the actual premed program, which you can apply to from CEGEP). I don't know the intricacies of applying to premed after the first year of a bachelor's, but after that GPA is what matters when applying to professional programs like medicine and grad school programs. The difference is that the French schools in Quebec convert your GPA into a CRU based on your program, and for some reason don't require any submissions like essays or info about your ECs.

 

Most anglophones on this board aren't from Quebec, so this is more just an intro to how complicated (and I feel nonsensical) Quebec is haha

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Note that CEGEP grades determine your acceptance into undergrad (or the actual premed program, which you can apply to from CEGEP). I don't know the intricacies of applying to premed after the first year of a bachelor's, but after that GPA is what matters when applying to professional programs like medicine and grad school programs. The difference is that the French schools in Quebec convert your GPA into a CRU based on your program, and for some reason don't require any submissions like essays or info about your ECs.

 

Most anglophones on this board aren't from Quebec, so this is more just an intro to how complicated (and I feel nonsensical) Quebec is haha

 

A lot of things in Quebec have to be looked at through a political lens: CEGEPs were the result of the Quiet Revolution, where francophones asserted themselves more strongly.  There's also some kind of balance in Quebec between European and American values: in Europe people often get into med school after high school usually (mostly based on grades).  So Quebec follows those values to some extent.  Even though McGill changed it's admissions to better accommodate francophones, I still get the sense McGill is sometimes considered an anglo elite institution. 

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