neuralgal Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hi all, I was recently accepted into a UK medical school and will be starting there this September. My ultimate goal is to return to Canada so I would like to know if any of you have any tips on what I can do during medical school to make my future residency application stand out. I've already looked into the exams and understand the timeline and scores that I'll need on them but I'm more curious as to the extracurriculars I should get involved in (interested in neurosurgery). I realize that this is an extremely competitive residency, even for Canadian medical graduates, and I am perfectly fine with completing this training in the UK as well and coming back to Canada some years down the line. However, I'd still like to know what I can do be a competitive applicant, regardless of which country I'm doing my training in. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashmetoo Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hi all, I was recently accepted into a UK medical school and will be starting there this September. My ultimate goal is to return to Canada so I would like to know if any of you have any tips on what I can do during medical school to make my future residency application stand out. I've already looked into the exams and understand the timeline and scores that I'll need on them but I'm more curious as to the extracurriculars I should get involved in (interested in neurosurgery). I realize that this is an extremely competitive residency, even for Canadian medical graduates, and I am perfectly fine with completing this training in the UK as well and coming back to Canada some years down the line. However, I'd still like to know what I can do be a competitive applicant, regardless of which country I'm doing my training in. Thank you! Simply put, to be a competitive applicant is to not be an IMG.. Are there even neurosurg spots in Canada reserved for IMGs? Do you have UK/Canada dual citizenship? How do you propose to do any training in the UK after med school if you don't have UK citizenship? My advise, look into US med school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuralgal Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Simply put, to be a competitive applicant is to not be an IMG.. Are there even neurosurg spots in Canada reserved for IMGs? Do you have UK/Canada dual citizenship? How do you propose to do any training in the UK after med school if you don't have UK citizenship? My advise, look into US med school. I'm a Canadian citizen and there are about 16 total spots for neurosurgery, 2 of which IMGs are able to apply to. In the UK, as a UK medical graduate, I am eligible to do the foundation years and their specialty training (just need to switch visas but that shouldn't be too hard to do if I am able to secure a position). Not that this is relevant to what I was asking, but I did apply to US and Canadian MD and was rejected multiple times - I've gone down this path after considering my application objectively and whether I would be confidant that I would ever secure a spot in either country. I understand the challenges I face but that doesn't mean I can't do everything in my power to become a competitive applicant. If you have any advice towards that, that would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 I'm a Canadian citizen and there are about 16 total spots for neurosurgery, 2 of which IMGs are able to apply to. In the UK, as a UK medical graduate, I am eligible to do the foundation years and their specialty training (just need to switch visas but that shouldn't be too hard to do if I am able to secure a position). Not that this is relevant to what I was asking, but I did apply to US and Canadian MD and was rejected multiple times - I've gone down this path after considering my application objectively and whether I would be confidant that I would ever secure a spot in either country. I understand the challenges I face but that doesn't mean I can't do everything in my power to become a competitive applicant. If you have any advice towards that, that would be greatly appreciated. If you're gunning for Neurosurgery as an IMG, here's what I'd recommend. Do as much related to Neurosurgery in Canada as you possibly can. Electives, research, conferences, anything. The only realistic spot open to you is in Toronto, so do whatever you can to get quality face-time with those at the U of T Neurosurgery program. Back in the UK, do the same stuff - electives, research, conferences - in Neurosurgery with an intensity that pushes you to your absolute limit. The other spot "open" to you from this iteration is at McGill, this year it's the only Neurosurgery spot in Quebec, and CMGs can apply to it. You're not getting that spot unless you're an exceedingly exceptional candidate and so many factors beyond your control all align. There have been some other "Regular Stream" programs in Quebec in the past outside of McGill (at Laval, for example), but if that program opens up by the time you graduate, you would have an equally low chance at that program too. Even if you do everything right, keep in mind that you could very easily find yourself in a position where you cannot do a Neurosurgery residency in Canada. It only takes one IMG to beat you out. To take things further, there's no guarantee that IMG position stays in place until you graduate - there's an over-supply of Neurosurgeons in Canada and the number of Neurosurgery residency positions has been under scrutiny. Please ensure you're aware of the requirements to stay in the UK to complete your training if you do not match to a Canadian residency. Put simply, I don't have the confidence you do that it would be an easy or certain process, despite being a UK grad. If that pathway is anything less than extremely secure as a back-up option, I would highly recommend against going for such a risky path as trying for Neurosurgery in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuralgal Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 If you're gunning for Neurosurgery as an IMG, here's what I'd recommend. Do as much related to Neurosurgery in Canada as you possibly can. Electives, research, conferences, anything. The only realistic spot open to you is in Toronto, so do whatever you can to get quality face-time with those at the U of T Neurosurgery program. Back in the UK, do the same stuff - electives, research, conferences - in Neurosurgery with an intensity that pushes you to your absolute limit. The other spot "open" to you from this iteration is at McGill, this year it's the only Neurosurgery spot in Quebec, and CMGs can apply to it. You're not getting that spot unless you're an exceedingly exceptional candidate and so many factors beyond your control all align. There have been some other "Regular Stream" programs in Quebec in the past outside of McGill (at Laval, for example), but if that program opens up by the time you graduate, you would have an equally low chance at that program too. Even if you do everything right, keep in mind that you could very easily find yourself in a position where you cannot do a Neurosurgery residency in Canada. It only takes one IMG to beat you out. To take things further, there's no guarantee that IMG position stays in place until you graduate - there's an over-supply of Neurosurgeons in Canada and the number of Neurosurgery residency positions has been under scrutiny. Please ensure you're aware of the requirements to stay in the UK to complete your training if you do not match to a Canadian residency. Put simply, I don't have the confidence you do that it would be an easy or certain process, despite being a UK grad. If that pathway is anything less than extremely secure as a back-up option, I would highly recommend against going for such a risky path as trying for Neurosurgery in Canada. Thanks for the advice! Neurosurgery is a tough enough residency to get into as it is, regardless of country. The extent of my confidence is that if not Canada, then I have the means and opportunity of doing that training in the UK as I'll be considered equally alongside home students. Essentially, I will have options for residency in UK, which is one of the reasons I applied there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralk Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Thanks for the advice! Neurosurgery is a tough enough residency to get into as it is, regardless of country. The extent of my confidence is that if not Canada, then I have the means and opportunity of doing that training in the UK as I'll be considered equally alongside home students. Essentially, I will have options for residency in UK, which is one of the reasons I applied there. Just make sure you check out the entire process for obtaining post-graduate training in the UK. I know UK grads do get a significant leg up over non-UK grads, but I caution about feeling too safe about that route. Visa issues can always complicate things as long as you're not a permanent resident, especially with Brexit and general anti-immigrant sentiments complicating the issue. In particular, please take the time to understand the rules for practicing after your training, especially with regards to visas. There's no guarantees that your UK training would be accepted in Canada if you were to become a Neurosurgeon (we have a reciprocal agreement which should facilitate certification in Canada, but it's not an automatic thing), and the job market for Neurosurgery in Canada is terrible. If for whatever reason you weren't able to practice in the UK, you could easily be stuck in limbo. You need to go into this assuming that you will not match to Neurosurgery in Canada. I took at look through the match stats - in the last 5 years, the best IMG match rate to Neurosurgery was 30%, and that was when there were 3 IMG spots. Several years it was 0%. This isn't just "Neurosurgery is a tough residency to get into" situation, this is a picking the right number when playing roulette situation. If your back-up option is a UK residency, you need to have all your ducks in a row starting now, and be fully aware that your plans could be altered by factors well beyond your control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuralgal Posted February 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just make sure you check out the entire process for obtaining post-graduate training in the UK. I know UK grads do get a significant leg up over non-UK grads, but I caution about feeling too safe about that route. Visa issues can always complicate things as long as you're not a permanent resident, especially with Brexit and general anti-immigrant sentiments complicating the issue. In particular, please take the time to understand the rules for practicing after your training, especially with regards to visas. There's no guarantees that your UK training would be accepted in Canada if you were to become a Neurosurgeon (we have a reciprocal agreement which should facilitate certification in Canada, but it's not an automatic thing), and the job market for Neurosurgery in Canada is terrible. If for whatever reason you weren't able to practice in the UK, you could easily be stuck in limbo. You need to go into this assuming that you will not match to Neurosurgery in Canada. I took at look through the match stats - in the last 5 years, the best IMG match rate to Neurosurgery was 30%, and that was when there were 3 IMG spots. Several years it was 0%. This isn't just "Neurosurgery is a tough residency to get into" situation, this is a picking the right number when playing roulette situation. If your back-up option is a UK residency, you need to have all your ducks in a row starting now, and be fully aware that your plans could be altered by factors well beyond your control. I've spent a lot of time researching the visas, and provided that I can obtain the positions, it appears that the process is relatively straightforward to progress through medical school, training, and work. Of course with the current attitudes, it is a bit of a risk but a chance is better than none at all. In terms of Canadian recognition, if I am certified with the Royal College of Surgeons in England they will recognize the training (still need to take a test though). There are other areas of medicine I can see myself in (neurosurgery would be my first choice but not my only), and I haven't actually had any experience yet, so I may not end up wanting to apply to neurosurgery anyway. I just want to start preparing for all possibilities now (residency and country-wise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 In terms of Canadian recognition, if I am certified with the Royal College of Surgeons in England they will recognize the training (still need to take a test though).Passing the Royal College exam is extremely challanging, even for Canadian grads who spend years preparing for it in our system (so they have a better handle on what the exam asks) in programs that have a long history of preparing residents to write it (mock exams designed to simulate the exam, hand me down notes that are specifically focused on the exam etc.). It is extremely challenging to pass as an IMG who didn't train in Canada. The failure rate is significant for IMG writing the RC exam. It's not "just having to write a test". The UK residency system is also much longer and slower than ours so you will be a resident for more years than in Canada/US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edict Posted February 24, 2017 Report Share Posted February 24, 2017 Hi all, I was recently accepted into a UK medical school and will be starting there this September. My ultimate goal is to return to Canada so I would like to know if any of you have any tips on what I can do during medical school to make my future residency application stand out. I've already looked into the exams and understand the timeline and scores that I'll need on them but I'm more curious as to the extracurriculars I should get involved in (interested in neurosurgery). I realize that this is an extremely competitive residency, even for Canadian medical graduates, and I am perfectly fine with completing this training in the UK as well and coming back to Canada some years down the line. However, I'd still like to know what I can do be a competitive applicant, regardless of which country I'm doing my training in. Thank you! If you are still interested in neurosurgery by the end of medical school I will eat my shoe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 28, 2017 Report Share Posted February 28, 2017 If you are still interested in neurosurgery by the end of medical school I will eat my shoe... Haha my thoughts exactly. To OP I would say you probably already know the drill: destroy the board exams, do plenty of rotations in Canada, get stellar letters from staff here, and do lots of research. And be aware that you shouldn't pigeonhole yourself into Neurosx which you probably won't end up liking anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnuts Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 On 2/23/2017 at 7:11 AM, NLengr said: Passing the Royal College exam is extremely challanging, even for Canadian grads who spend years preparing for it in our system (so they have a better handle on what the exam asks) in programs that have a long history of preparing residents to write it (mock exams designed to simulate the exam, hand me down notes that are specifically focused on the exam etc.). It is extremely challenging to pass as an IMG who didn't train in Canada. The failure rate is significant for IMG writing the RC exam. It's not "just having to write a test". The UK residency system is also much longer and slower than ours so you will be a resident for more years than in Canada/US. I'd emphatically second this post. Passing the RCPSC is completely independent of expertise in your field. The concept that Canadian residents are "taught to the test" would be a laughable understatement if the situation were at all funny. That said, most fully trained IMG specialists moving to Canada don't write this exam. They just get an academic license. (http://www.cpso.on.ca/Policies-Publications/Policy/Academic-Registration) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamham Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 NeuroSx is such a specialized academic field, with very strong emphasis on past academic record. Jobs in Canada are far and few due to heavy reliance on major academic centres and traditionally, many highly qualified FRCSCs (with extensive publications, teaching experience, connections, multiple fellowships) have difficulty securing a job in Canada. Even if OP manages to snag a NeuroSx residency spot in Canada, the mere fact that he/she is IMG with a less than stellar pre-med academic record (resulting in numerous rejections by multiple Canadian and US MD schools) is going to count against him/her. If OP is still interested in NeuroSx, he/she is better off doing residency in the UK to improve job prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neurophilic Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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