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2017 Carms Match Results!


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Yeah, McMaster had a tough year as well. I think (anecdotally) there was a lot more interest in Royal College specialties in general this year, and it led to some disappointing outcomes for some very stellar candidates. 

Yeah, unsure if it was posted above but we had 21 unmatched. 18 from the Hamilton campus and 3 from the Waterloo campus

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how do you guys find out about unmatched numbers? From faculty's guidance counsellor?

The CaRMS stats is not out yet (too early).

For the second round, do you guys think that it is worth a try to apply to disciplines, for someone who never did any electives in the field? Obviously, no LOR from rad-onc or family doctors. Asking on behalf of a friend :) I told my friend to apply to anything he&she could, we never know!

Yeah, unsure if it was posted above but we had 21 unmatched. 18 from the Hamilton campus and 3 from the Waterloo campus

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how do you guys find out about unmatched numbers? From faculty's guidance counsellor?

The CaRMS stats is not out yet (too early).

For the second round, do you guys think that it is worth a try to apply to disciplines, for someone who never did any electives in the field? Obviously, no LOR from rad-onc or family doctors. Asking on behalf of a friend :) I told my friend to apply to anything he&she could, we never know!

Nothing to lose except the fees. Depends on the reason that person went unmatched as well, red flags etc. Some Rad Onc programs may prefer Canadians over imgs but the applicants would have to prove that they know enough about rad onc to be seriously considered. Rad Onc programs are small and really can't afford to have a resident transfer out. (some Rad Onc programs have a single resident each year). 

 

It is a hidden specialty though and its not unheard of to find it too late in the game to apply too.

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 Thanks no red flag. My friend only applied to surgical specialities and backing up with gen surg (not a good plan). I guess that all the surgical programs cut down the number of spots, while the interest is still there.

  He&she will apply broadly to family medicine in the 2nd iteration. My school doesn't really encourage the unmatched students to take a year off and re-apply. 

Nothing to lose except the fees. Depends on the reason that person went unmatched as well, red flags etc. Some Rad Onc programs may prefer Canadians over imgs but the applicants would have to prove that they know enough about rad onc to be seriously considered. Rad Onc programs are small and really can't afford to have a resident transfer out. (some Rad Onc programs have a single resident each year). 

 

It is a hidden specialty though and its not unheard of to find it too late in the game to apply too.

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 Thanks no red flag. My friend only applied to surgical specialities and backing up with gen surg (not a good plan). I guess that all the surgical programs cut down the number of spots, while the interest is still there.

  He&she will apply broadly to family medicine in the 2nd iteration. My school doesn't really encourage the unmatched students to take a year off and re-apply. 

 

it hasn't exactly had a lot of luck with that in the school's defense (not that other school's have great luck with it either). There are numerous examples of people in the following year not matching yet again. 

 

CARMS.....grrr

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it hasn't exactly had a lot of luck with that in the school's defense (not that other school's have great luck with it either). There are numerous examples of people in the following year not matching yet again. 

 

CARMS.....grrr

 

So theoretically - what happens if you never match? I realize this is probably a naive question but I never entertained the possibility of NEVER getting a residency position? Does it mean clinical career over? could you theoretically continue to re-enter CARMS over and over again until someone took you? 

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 Thanks no red flag. My friend only applied to surgical specialities and backing up with gen surg (not a good plan). I guess that all the surgical programs cut down the number of spots, while the interest is still there.

  He&she will apply broadly to family medicine in the 2nd iteration. My school doesn't really encourage the unmatched students to take a year off and re-apply. 

 

What constitutes as a red flag?

I guess there can be a comment on the MSPR....? Or too many "incomplete"s on the transcript?  A lukewarm reference letter?

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So theoretically - what happens if you never match? I realize this is probably a naive question but I never entertained the possibility of NEVER getting a residency position? Does it mean clinical career over? could you theoretically continue to re-enter CARMS over and over again until someone took you? 

 

very theoretical as eventually you would hope you could convince someone to take you into something - but let's just say you have a major red flag that will basically block you completely or you just refuse to apply broadly for whatever reason. 

 

Then you are effectively out of the game. You can reenter the CARMS match forever - I don't think there is a limitation there. Until you get a matched position you will never be a clinician although there are non clinical jobs out there that you can get with an MD. You will be stuck with a degree, a large loan likely, and nothing but free time ha. 

 

In some fields that are highly dependent on you getting a fellowship you can have issues if you fail to get a fellowship as well - there is pressure at every step. 

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very theoretical as eventually you would hope you could convince someone to take you into something - but let's just say you have a major red flag that will basically block you completely or you just refuse to apply broadly for whatever reason. 

 

Then you are effectively out of the game. You can reenter the CARMS match forever - I don't think there is a limitation there. Until you get a matched position you will never be a clinician although there are non clinical jobs out there that you can get with an MD. You will be stuck with a degree, a large loan likely, and nothing but free time ha. 

 

In some fields that are highly dependent on you getting a fellowship you can have issues if you fail to get a fellowship as well - there is pressure at every step. 

 

ahhhh it never ends. and the nature of the match is that it's such an absolute thing. you either got a position, or you didn't. and if you were unlucky enough to not get one then you're suddenly stigmatized and have such a hard road ahead of you. very unfortunate it works this way.

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What constitutes as a red flag?

I guess there can be a comment on the MSPR....? Or too many "incomplete"s on the transcript?  A lukewarm reference letter?

 

breach of professionalism, failing anything in a system that is pass/fail (you just stand out), unexplained gaps in your training, can be worse than even a lukewarm letter - one that flat out says don't take this person (and yes those happen somehow. I have read them and thought how dysfunctional is that! How much did this person piss you off that instead of declining to create a letter for them, you actually spend time to write one in an attempt to destroy them), and also just "the grapevine" .....

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breach of professionalism, failing anything in a system that is pass/fail (you just stand out), unexplained gaps in your training, can be worse than even a lukewarm letter - one that flat out says don't take this person (and yes those happen somehow. I have read them and thought how dysfunctional is that! How much did this person piss you off that instead of declining to create a letter for them, you actually spend time to write one in an attempt to destroy them), and also just "the grapevine" .....

 

oh my god I'm shitting my pants. how could someone ask a preceptor to write a letter if it clearly went that bad? wouldn't it be obvious if it went that badly? that's the terrifying think about clerkship...you never know what people think of you sometimes. clear and open feedback is so critical. 

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oh my god I'm shitting my pants. how could someone ask a preceptor to write a letter if it clearly went that bad? wouldn't it be obvious if it went that badly? that's the terrifying think about clerkship...you never know what people think of you sometimes. clear and open feedback is so critical. 

 

I had a reference letter goof like this.  I went on elective, and didn't really get on with the preceptor.  Some feedback was given to me that I felt was given in an unprofessional fashion (on the part of the staff) though obviously I had my part to play.  Just a poor fit all around.

 

At the end of the elective, the preceptor told me to contact him if I wanted a letter.  Given that he was known to the program, I figured that it would look weird if I said no, so I said yes.  Used the letter only for that program.  It was the only program in my specialty that didn't interview me.

 

I suspect that I got blackballed - though I think not using the letter probably wouldn't have made a difference, because word gets around.

 

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have bothered asking for or using the letter.  But it seemed like a good idea at the time, in the pressure cooker of CaRMS.

 

Luckily I ended up at my top choice program and that program would have been pretty low on my list anyway, so no harm done.

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To all of those unmatched.

I heard that there are people unmatched in peds, who applied this year and got in the first round in Ontario!!!

The story could go on for other specialities, orthopedics, gen surg and even in obs gyn!

The bottom line is if you could not see yourself doing the speciality other than the one you applied to the first round, I still think that it would be wise to give it a shot next year, do a master, or delay graduation and do more electives in other schools.

Your school will always tell you to apply to the 2nd iteration, and grab what you can...and all med schools want their students to be matched, it is their self-interest and they want to look good !!

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I had a reference letter goof like this.  I went on elective, and didn't really get on with the preceptor.  Some feedback was given to me that I felt was given in an unprofessional fashion (on the part of the staff) though obviously I had my part to play.  Just a poor fit all around.

 

At the end of the elective, the preceptor told me to contact him if I wanted a letter.  Given that he was known to the program, I figured that it would look weird if I said no, so I said yes.  Used the letter only for that program.  It was the only program in my specialty that didn't interview me.

 

I suspect that I got blackballed - though I think not using the letter probably wouldn't have made a difference, because word gets around.

 

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have bothered asking for or using the letter.  But it seemed like a good idea at the time, in the pressure cooker of CaRMS.

 

Luckily I ended up at my top choice program and that program would have been pretty low on my list anyway, so no harm done.

 

almost seems tricky of that person to ask you if you wanted a letter. I personally wouldn't offer if I wouldn't write a good one. that's just common courtesy imo. its cruel to do otherwise.

 

thanks for sharing your story

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very theoretical as eventually you would hope you could convince someone to take you into something - but let's just say you have a major red flag that will basically block you completely or you just refuse to apply broadly for whatever reason. 

Yes, theoretical - for the sake of those reading this thread, does anyone know someone who failed to match again the year after their first attempt at CaRMS, despite applying broadly? I've seen a broad range of personalities in medicine all find a spot, and I feel as though a major red flag would lead to an exit from medical school altogether... but rmorelan would be more familiar with the workings of UGME.

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Yes, theoretical - for the sake of those reading this thread, does anyone know someone who failed to match again the year after their first attempt at CaRMS, despite applying broadly? I've seen a broad range of personalities in medicine all find a spot, and I feel as though a major red flag would lead to an exit from medical school altogether... but rmorelan would be more familiar with the workings of UGME.

 

I do but it is rare (I mean I don't want to scare anyone but if you are around long enough you see almost anything.) I personally know from this particular carms cycle alone two people that would fall into that category - matching in their third carms cycle. Of course I know (as I am sure many people do) that simple don't match ever as those "red flags" did lead eventually to leaving clinical medicine. 

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Yes, theoretical - for the sake of those reading this thread, does anyone know someone who failed to match again the year after their first attempt at CaRMS, despite applying broadly? I've seen a broad range of personalities in medicine all find a spot, and I feel as though a major red flag would lead to an exit from medical school altogether... but rmorelan would be more familiar with the workings of UGME.

Yes. Unfortunately, I know of two people who have had unsuccessful years of matching. One applied to a surgical specialty twice, with no luck. Not sure what they are doing. The other unfortunately turned out quite sadly, 2 unsuccessful years applying broadly with no match and unfortunately took their life several months after. I'm not privy to other details surrounding the circumstances in that case.

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almost seems tricky of that person to ask you if you wanted a letter. I personally wouldn't offer if I wouldn't write a good one. that's just common courtesy imo. its cruel to do otherwise.

 

thanks for sharing your story

 

Yeah it is a bit cruel - and I am sure very rare. Medicine depends so much on references and the opinions of people above you to advance. SInce you cannot read the reference letters it is always a gamble. I would say it is unprofessional to not inform someone of your opinion of them prior to writing a letter for them. 

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Yeah it is a bit cruel - and I am sure very rare. Medicine depends so much on references and the opinions of people above you to advance. SInce you cannot read the reference letters it is always a gamble. I would say it is unprofessional to not inform someone of your opinion of them prior to writing a letter for them. 

You never know what they think of you unfortunately.

Some preceptors just wouldn't really offer to write letters while others would. Even when you are "not offered" a letter and end up asking for one, you sort of have a hunch on whether the letter is strong or not.. 

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I agree that using or not using the letter likely wouldn't have made any difference. I also agree that if you were offered the letter, it would be reasonable to think that it could come across as odd if you didn't take him up on the offer.

 though I think not using the letter probably wouldn't have made a difference, because word gets around.

 

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have bothered asking for or using the letter.  But it seemed like a good idea at the time, in the pressure cooker of CaRMS.

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You never know what they think of you unfortunately.

Some preceptors just wouldn't really offer to write letters while others would. Even when you are "not offered" a letter and end up asking for one, you sort of have a hunch on whether the letter is strong or not.. 

I have to say I can't remember seeing any outright bad letters (student described as below average), and only rarely any mention of a student's weaknesses in writing... letters mostly seem to fall on the good to excellent to outstanding continuum (so much so that if a student is described as "good" without much elaboration, this might indicate a bad letter). Word of mouth tends to be much more damaging.

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OMG I am so sorry to hear this about the person who took his & her life...I guess that CaRMS is a brutal game, and does not play in everyone's favour.

 

For reference letters, I usually ask them right after I get my rotation's evaluation. You usually can see if the preceptors liked you or not, and ask for a letter accordingly. When you ask in person, you see your staff's facial expression. If they look happy and smile, and say : of course! You kind of know that you will get a great letter! Some of them actually hint to write you a letter at the end of your rotation.

But if you are asking for LORs right before CaRMS, and your rotation is not done yet. You could actually ask: are you going to write me a strong letter. Sometimes, your preceptors will praise you and tell you that you are intelligent, and hard-working med student. I guess that it is a good cue that he&she will write you a strong letter.

Yes. Unfortunately, I know of two people who have had unsuccessful years of matching. One applied to a surgical specialty twice, with no luck. Not sure what they are doing. The other unfortunately turned out quite sadly, 2 unsuccessful years applying broadly with no match and unfortunately took their life several months after. I'm not privy to other details surrounding the circumstances in that case.

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OMG I am so sorry to hear this about the person who took his & her life...I guess that CaRMS is a brutal game, and does not play in everyone's favour.

 

For reference letters, I usually ask them right after I get my rotation's evaluation. You usually can see if the preceptors liked you or not, and ask for a letter accordingly. When you ask in person, you see your staff's facial expression. If they look happy and smile, and say : of course! You kind of know that you will get a great letter! Some of them actually hint to write you a letter at the end of your rotation.

But if you are asking for LORs right before CaRMS, and your rotation is not done yet. You could actually ask: are you going to write me a strong letter. Sometimes, your preceptors will praise you and tell you that you are intelligent, and hard-working med student. I guess that it is a good cue that he&she will write you a strong letter.

Me too. That's devastating... I can only hope/assume that such stories are quite rare...

 

re: letters - having written rotation evaluations is helpful. I assume that if someone is willing to put something nice down in writing for a rotation eval, they'll be willing to do so again for a letter.

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Will be interesting to see the CaRMS match results across the country. Right now it's all hearsay, but I keep hearing it's the lowest R1 match rate across the country.  

 

Congratulations who found a home, but also good luck to everyone doing round 2 or taking an enrichment year!  

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