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New Black Student Application Program (Bsap)


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9 minutes ago, luciferase said:

Yes, in fact I am. Because its ironic how other people who write an academic explanations essay for their disadvantages don't get to have a special committee arranged for them; one that is  specifically catered to/resembles their background, ethnicity etc. 

LOL! If it were that black and white, I'm sure there wouldn't be an active thread/debate on this topic ... 

I'm saying I don't understand how having a committee to examine someone's life experiences can be seen as a negative (irrespective of who it directly helps). As for this whole program, the only point of debate seems to be people saying "why don't other groups get the same treatment". Either way it doesn't negate the positive effects of the bsap. 

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I've got to say that after giving this program a lot of thought, I think a better approach would have been to consider low socioeconomic status rather than ethnicity. I think this would have been better because the truth is that a lot of under-represented minorities (black, aboriginal, latino, and philipino) probably come from a low-SES. BSAP is a step forward, but it makes it tougher for other underrepresented populations. 

I think low SES should be the driving factor because coming from a non-privileged upbringing has been what has hindered my opportunities the most. This is coming from someone who could be considered black under this program. I interviewed at UofT this year and got waitlisted. It was tough for me to connect with my interviewers because I felt none of them went through the same life experiences I did. I never felt it was my ethnicity holding me back, but rather my low-ses. 

So yeah BSAP is a step forward but I think there are better steps to be taken. 

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On 7/8/2017 at 0:33 AM, luciferase said:

I disagree that graduate applicants are given a leg up - they are just evaluated differently from "normal"/traditional  undergrad applicants, and as such, the admissions committee seeks different qualities from such applicants. As re-iterated on UofT's website, graduate students are deemed competitive based on research productivity, first authorship in publications and the tenor of their  academic CV ( which undergrads are not required to submit). Also, GPA is just one component of the selection criteria, and coupled with the different type of file review screening/evaluation used for graduate students, the lower GPA requirement for graduate applicants does not indicate an unfair selection process, in my opinion. Additionally, it is important to note that the average GPA for the incoming classes over the past few years has been around the likes of ~3.95 (and increasing), which is fairly high; thus this suggests that a majority of the incoming class (including grad applicants) did have a fairly decent/ competitive GPA (this assumption is an estimate however, as there are no published stats on this). Not to mention that grad students go through additional schooling, experiences etc. which may make them more experienced, insightful and knowledgeable than younger candidates. 

In my opinion, this notion of it being unfair to be evaluated by someone who comes from a different background/ skin colour creates further divide in the population. Essentially, are we hoping to move towards a future where individuals form all ethnicities/ skin colours/ backgrounds etc. feel that it is absolutely necessary to be evaluated by someone that is a part of their specific group/ population, in order to be fairly evaluated ? And, as you mentioned, the academic explanations essay does exist (in addition to other personal statements) to allow applicants to provide an explanation of their specific disadvantages/cultural circumstances - so I guess my question is: why the need for a special committee to further understand those disadvantages ? 

-luciferase 

I am a little bit confused because I thought your position was against having different forms of evaluation for different student groups? U of T's website even states that Grad applicants may/will be reviewed by a separate graduate application committee. So why do grad students need their own sub-committee? And why is that acceptable but the BSAP program seems to be an issue for some on this forum??

We also can't gloss over the fact that many students from disadvantaged populations cannot afford the time nor financial costs associated with doing a Master's/PhD degree as they come from low income households and need to provide support to their parents ASAP via engaging in gainful employment. Nonetheless, in my opinion I do not believe that there is a discrepancy between the two, so if one is fine with you, then I am quite sure the other should be as well. Unless, I am missing some other mitigating factor in your position that you have yet to verbalize (write out).

I don't see how it creates further divide in the population when we know systematic/institutionalized racial prejudices/stereotypes exist towards people from this population. Maybe, if that were indeed the case for everyone from all different races then we could most definitely make that argument. Again, I understand you are just stating your opinion that it will create a divide, but you might be overlooking the issue that a divide already currently exists for different members of our beautiful Toronto population.

It can be very hard to understand the specific disadvantages related to growing up black/brown and the cultural obstacles that are faced on a daily basis, if you yourself have not experienced this. I believe this has been identified by the decision makers up top as a gap that currently exists in the evaluation process. Hence the creation of BSAP and the "special" committee.

I understand that as pre-meds most of us want to go to U of T, and it may be looked as a decrease in our own personal chance of gaining admission if we do not fit into this category. However, I imagine that this was the response that occurred when the ISAP was instituted as well. So let's just give it a chance and trust the process.

Regards,

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54 minutes ago, 2.gOoD said:

The way I am seeing it right now is that with BSAP there will be an increase in the # of black students at UofT meaning less seats for other underrepresented groups (Latino, Philipino, low-SES, rural), thereby making it even more competitive for the other marginalized groups. Having a low-SES application program would encompass a larger demographic and help the most amount of applicants.

To better illustrate my point, here are some figures that show the level of underrepresentatio in medical schools

Black students 0.5% vs 2.5% of the Canadian population 

Low income students (0-40K/year): 10% vs. 42.5% of the Canadian population

These are just rough #'s I put together from looking at the bars and the scale, but I think you get my point. 

Can you please explain how an increase in black/brown skin students at U of T is correlated to a decrease in students from other underrepresented groups in comparison to non-black students taking those seats? Regardless of the race of the individual that takes the seat, it means less seats for all the other students, not just underrepresented groups. Unless U of T has some sort of minority quota that you are privy too, which I don't think is the case at all.

Also black/brown people make up 8.5% of the Toronto population but much less than that currently in the U of T class (1/259 in the class year that just finished). Numbers for rest of Canada are skewed due to rural areas, and places out west/east where said population is near non-existent.

If you don't mind me asking, what would a low SES application program look like? There are the obvious barriers from people from these population as shown by your figures (great figures btw) but would this be based on how much your family income is?? 

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1 hour ago, 2.gOoD said:

The way I am seeing it right now is that with BSAP there will be an increase in the # of black students at UofT meaning less seats for other underrepresented groups (Latino, Philipino, low-SES, rural), thereby making it even more competitive for the other marginalized groups. Having a low-SES application program would encompass a larger demographic and help the most amount of applicants.

Hmm..I wonder if the bsap actually means less seats for other underrepresented groups. I can't imagine that would be the case as med school admissions is still merit-based, rather than a quota for underrepresented groups.

I agree that having a low-SES application would encompass a larger group of applicants; however, that is a different issue. Low SES students have a huge barrier but that is not the aim of this specific program. As with indigenous populations (who also have a separate essay/self-identification at many schools) black students face different barriers than other poc, outside of SES. As a result of race relations and colonial history/settler colonization, a black person who is of high SES very often still faces prejudice, merely because of the colour of their skin, whether it's sub-conscious or not. 

As a non-black, non-indigenous poc, I have encountered various barriers. However i also had the privilege to immigrate here (irrespective of the reasons that brought me here), rather than forced from my home land.

A low SES application would be great, but that would be to achieve different goals than the bsap ... which is to increase the number black students studying at u of t. Maybe that's something students could advocate for though from within the program. Maybe in the future we'll see that as admissions processes evolve. 

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11 minutes ago, MD4DM44 said:

Can you please explain how an increase in black/brown skin students at U of T is correlated to a decrease in students from other underrepresented groups in comparison to non-black students taking those seats? Regardless of the race of the individual that takes the seat, it means less seats for all the other students, not just underrepresented groups. Unless U of T has some sort of minority quota that you are privy too, which I don't think is the case at all.

Also black/brown people make up 8.5% of the Toronto population but much less than that currently in the U of T class (1/259 in the class year that just finished). Numbers for rest of Canada are skewed due to rural areas, and places out west/east where said population is near non-existent.

If you don't mind me asking, what would a low SES application program look like? There are the obvious barriers from people from these population as shown by your figures (great figures btw) but would this be based on how much your family income is?? 

Yes, it does mean less seats for everyone, but the focus of my point was that if UofT is trying to be Socially Accountable then why choose black students specifically? Why not target a larger underrepresented demographic?

A great example of what a program could be modeled after is University of Manitoba's socioeconomic coefficient, where they ask specific questions such as a history of adverse childhood experiences, race, sexual orientation, and of course family income. Based on how many descriptions you fit, they apply a multiplier to your score. 

University of Saskatchewan is introducing a similar program this upcoming cycle called DSAAP (details still to be confirmed).

University of Calgary also has something for people who have experienced adversity although I am not familiar with the specifics. 

20 minutes ago, icanmakeyourmedrock said:

Hmm..I wonder if the bsap actually means less seats for other underrepresented groups. I can't imagine that would be the case as med school admissions is still merit-based, rather than a quota for underrepresented groups.

I agree that having a low-SES application would encompass a larger group of applicants; however, that is a different issue. Low SES students have a huge barrier but that is not the aim of this specific program. As with indigenous populations (who also have a separate essay/self-identification at many schools) black students face different barriers than other poc, outside of SES. As a result of race relations and colonial history/settler colonization, a black person who is of high SES very often still faces prejudice, merely because of the colour of their skin, whether it's sub-conscious or not. 

As a non-black, non-indigenous poc, I have encountered various barriers. However i also had the privilege to immigrate here (irrespective of the reasons that brought me here), rather than forced from my home land.

A low SES application would be great, but that would be to achieve different goals than the bsap ... which is to increase the number black students studying at u of t. Maybe that's something students could advocate for though from within the program. Maybe in the future we'll see that as admissions processes evolve. 

It doesn't technically mean less seats for other underrepresented groups, I'm just saying that it adds an extra layer of difficulty (for everyone). This extra layer of difficulty is compounded on other underrepresented groups who have to apply through the regular application stream.

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1 hour ago, 2.gOoD said:

Yes, it does mean less seats for everyone, but the focus of my point was that if UofT is trying to be Socially Accountable then why choose black students specifically? Why not target a larger underrepresented demographic?

A great example of what a program could be modeled after is University of Manitoba's socioeconomic coefficient, where they ask specific questions such as a history of adverse childhood experiences, race, sexual orientation, and of course family income. Based on how many descriptions you fit, they apply a multiplier to your score. 

University of Saskatchewan is introducing a similar program this upcoming cycle called DSAAP (details still to be confirmed).

University of Calgary also has something for people who have experienced adversity although I am not familiar with the specifics. 

It doesn't technically mean less seats for other underrepresented groups, I'm just saying that it adds an extra layer of difficulty (for everyone). This extra layer of difficulty is compounded on other underrepresented groups who have to apply through the regular application stream.

The BSAP program to my understanding was started by physician alumni, current students and other U of T faculty and staff to address the underrepresentation of the Toronto black/brown skin population in the UGME program. MedRock has outlined above the different factors (on top of SES) that students from this population face.

The SES program you are suggesting sounds like a great idea and is of course an issue, maybe a group of current med students would be willing to lead that cause?

 I think an extra layer of difficulty has been added akin to the layer that was added with ISAP, and with reserved spots for grad/phd students. (Medical school in Canada is just plain difficult to get into, no matter how you slice it.) The many barriers (which exceed those of low SES) that currently exist for applicants from this population are concerning and have added several layers of difficulty to their successful applications for quite some time, which is finally being addressed now. If you are indeed in favour of an application process that recognizes those from low SES, then you should be in favour of BSAP as it is a step in the right direction to acknowledging the disadvantages faced by some populations in gaining admittance to medical school.

I personally think the barriers that exist for BSAP students currently exceed those of low SES individuals, as SES is a large issue in that community as well but racial discrimination on a systemic and institutionalized level does not exist for the remaining individuals.

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3 hours ago, MD4DM44 said:

I personally think the barriers that exist for BSAP students currently exceed those of low SES individuals, as SES is a large issue in that community as well but racial discrimination on a systemic and institutionalized level does not exist for the remaining individuals.

This^

4 hours ago, 2.gOoD said:

It doesn't technically mean less seats for other underrepresented groups, I'm just saying that it adds an extra layer of difficulty (for everyone). This extra layer of difficulty is compounded on other underrepresented groups who have to apply through the regular application stream.

Also, what is an underrepresented group? Any non-white person from a non-urban area? It's difficult to account for everyone.

Yes, the application system is difficult, but there is a life outside of med. Percentage in foster care, rates of incarceration, treatment in the justice system, quality of medical care (etc) of indigenous and black populations is very different than other "underrepresented groups". I think it's important to look beyond med apps and into the broader consequences of someone's race as it relates to their lived experiences. Son of Baldwin is a good resource if anyone is looking for personal accounts. 

And because there isn't a quota, I actually don't see how these programs make it more difficult for other groups. The success of my application was not hindered because other applicants could identify as Indigenous (at my school). If they got in, it was because they were more suitable for the program, in whichever way adcom decides, not merely because they were Indigenous. Sure, there could be a situation in which an indigenous or black person my seem more suitable because of patient populations and lack of representation in medicine. Though there is a high chance they had very different barriers to get there/different opportunities. I don't think it's fair to say someone's life has been more difficult than someone else's, but it's important to see this as addressing systemic change rather than just accepting certain individuals during admissions. 

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4 hours ago, MD4DM44 said:

The BSAP program to my understanding was started by physician alumni, current students and other U of T faculty and staff to address the underrepresentation of the Toronto black/brown skin population in the UGME program. MedRock has outlined above the different factors (on top of SES) that students from this population face.

The SES program you are suggesting sounds like a great idea and is of course an issue, maybe a group of current med students would be willing to lead that cause?

 I think an extra layer of difficulty has been added akin to the layer that was added with ISAP, and with reserved spots for grad/phd students. (Medical school in Canada is just plain difficult to get into, no matter how you slice it.) The many barriers (which exceed those of low SES) that currently exist for applicants from this population are concerning and have added several layers of difficulty to their successful applications for quite some time, which is finally being addressed now. If you are indeed in favour of an application process that recognizes those from low SES, then you should be in favour of BSAP as it is a step in the right direction to acknowledging the disadvantages faced by some populations in gaining admittance to medical school.

I personally think the barriers that exist for BSAP students currently exceed those of low SES individuals, as SES is a large issue in that community as well but racial discrimination on a systemic and institutionalized level does not exist for the remaining individuals.

4

Yeah like I said in an earlier post, its a step on the right direction. Not disagreeing on that part. I just wanted to share my opinion, and although you have some good points, I am still in favour of something like University of Manitoba's system where a socioecomonic coefficient (which includes ethnicity and other barriers) is used.

41 minutes ago, icanmakeyourmedrock said:

This^

Also, what is an underrepresented group? Any non-white person from a non-urban area? It's difficult to account for everyone.

Yes, the application system is difficult, but there is a life outside of med. Percentage in foster care, rates of incarceration, treatment in the justice system, quality of medical care (etc) of indigenous and black populations is very different than other "underrepresented groups". I think it's important to look beyond med apps and into the broader consequences of someone's race as it relates to their lived experiences. Son of Baldwin is a good resource if anyone is looking for personal accounts. 

And because there isn't a quota, I actually don't see how these programs make it more difficult for other groups. The success of my application was not hindered because other applicants could identify as Indigenous (at my school). If they got in, it was because they were more suitable for the program, in whichever way adcom decides, not merely because they were Indigenous. Sure, there could be a situation in which an indigenous or black person my seem more suitable because of patient populations and lack of representation in medicine. Though there is a high chance they had very different barriers to get there/different opportunities. I don't think it's fair to say someone's life has been more difficult than someone else's, but it's important to see this as addressing systemic change rather than just accepting certain individuals during admissions. 

If you check the graphs and underrepresented group is any population that doesn't match Canada's population percentage (income less than 60K, black, latino, filipino). There are actually over represented minorities according to those stats. 

Check out the situation for Latin-American's in the states (which has a larger sample size); I wouldn't go so far as to say very different. 

Anyway, at the end of the day we all think BSAP is a step in the right direction. I hope I didn't offend any one here, I got to go work on med school apps, cheers. 

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If I can say a few things from the prospective a black student interested in medicine, for whatever it's worth: 

I can't remember exactly when, maybe a few months ago, I was going through the UofT Faculty of Medicine webpage and stumbled across this and it genuinely made me smile from ear to ear. Not because I believed it would somehow make it easier for me to be admitted to medicine if I ever do apply (and from my understanding, this is not the goal of the program); because the representation mattered a lot to me. I felt accepted into something that I have been told, for the vast majority of my life, I am not cut out for. (And this is not an exaggeration, I have literally been told by a middle school teacher "I will never leave 'the hood' and do anything with my life"). If I ever meet a black doctor I am beyond certain that they will be a huge role model to me. And until then, I have to find my black role models online; because access to them in real life just isn't that easy. With the implementation of programs like these, however, access to black role models will become easier. 

I grew up in a predominantly low-income community where a lot of the families were black. I myself do not fit into the category of a low SES black person, but I have seen the effects. More often than not, the goal of many students' parents were for the student to graduate high-school. This was usually the "main" goal of the student too. Like, seriously. Commencement was a huge deal. A bunch of kids from a graduating class going to Humber College? That was a success for the (my) entire community. As long as they aren't doing something else detrimental to their livelihood. Medicine is made up of such a large group of privileged individuals, who's parents already have some kind of professional degree, that education is seriously taken for granted... Now, imagine how much the black community rejoices when a student from a low-income family, who was not expected to earn a high wage, says they are going to medical school and become a physician. It really means a lot. And maybe people outside of certain communities can't see this-- and this is not to say that the expectation for every single black individual is low. That is not the case. However, from my personal experience in an area where that was the case, seeing someone from our community "make it", go to professional school and climb up the "social hierarchy" (for what it's worth) actually is a really huge deal. The creators of the program, from my interpretation at least, are trying to bring light of this. I can say with a lot of certainty that there a ton of other communities akin to the one I grew up in. 

Encouraging black students to apply to medical school and celebrating their accomplishments does not automatically dismiss the barriers that others face. (And I apologize for writing so much, but it's hard to say all that I needed to without writing a lot.) 

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11 hours ago, icanmakeyourmedrock said:

I agree that having a low-SES application would encompass a larger group of applicants; however, that is a different issue. Low SES students have a huge barrier but that is not the aim of this specific program. As with indigenous populations (who also have a separate essay/self-identification at many schools) black students face different barriers than other poc, outside of SES. As a result of race relations and colonial history/settler colonization, a black person who is of high SES very often still faces prejudice, merely because of the colour of their skin, whether it's sub-conscious or not. 

Edit: Basically this. But nvm.

 

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1 hour ago, XrainX said:

How black do I have to be to apply through this program???? What if I'm mixed ... or my parents are mixed. Who judges who is black enough for this program?

They measure your skin melanin content and it has to be above the competitive threshold. 

Jokes aside, I think they care more about your life experiences in the context of being black, not who is the most black. 

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  • 5 months later...

I highly doubt that that's their logic ^. I think that BSAP is one huge step forward in the Canadian Medical School Admission process. Most Canadian medical schools use a highly academic  metric-based admissions system, but UofT is taking a step into a new direction because they realize that a holistic review is important. There are places in the application for applicants to write about how they are marginalized and how it is affecting their admission into medical school. Instead of complaining about why BSAP is flawed, I think it's important to remember that UofT is moving towards admission methods which acknowledge gaps in medicine. Most Canadian medical schools offer little, if any streams or consideration to students who have had a more challenging path to medicine. (I'm not a UofT med student/ UofT student at all) - I'm just glad that a major Canadian medical school is doing something about these issues, rather than posting a diversity statement on their website without any programs or consideration to back up their "vision". 

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On 1/8/2018 at 8:40 PM, dreamteam22 said:

I highly doubt that that's their logic ^. I think that BSAP is one huge step forward in the Canadian Medical School Admission process. Most Canadian medical schools use a highly academic  metric-based admissions system, but UofT is taking a step into a new direction because they realize that a holistic review is important. There are places in the application for applicants to write about how they are marginalized and how it is affecting their admission into medical school. Instead of complaining about why BSAP is flawed, I think it's important to remember that UofT is moving towards admission methods which acknowledge gaps in medicine. Most Canadian medical schools offer little, if any streams or consideration to students who have had a more challenging path to medicine. (I'm not a UofT med student/ UofT student at all) - I'm just glad that a major Canadian medical school is doing something about these issues, rather than posting a diversity statement on their website without any programs or consideration to back up their "vision". 

Amazing response

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"- applicant file reviews and interviews include Black physicians an/or Black community members"

This is a very important point to mention and I believe the reason they implemented black physicians and/or black community members as their interviewees is because of implicit racism that can affect how they interview the black applicants. 

Its a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy. When a member of a disadvantaged/minority group is mistreated by a member of a majority group (unconsciously), the disadvantaged/minority person is unlikely to perform well. Black interviewees will eliminate this prophecy from occurring. 

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47 minutes ago, Logic said:

"- applicant file reviews and interviews include Black physicians an/or Black community members"

This is a very important point to mention and I believe the reason they implemented black physicians and/or black community members as their interviewees is because of implicit racism that can affect how they interview the black applicants. 

Its a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy. When a member of a disadvantaged/minority group is mistreated by a member of a majority group (unconsciously), the disadvantaged/minority person is unlikely to perform well. Black interviewees will eliminate this prophecy from occurring. 

interesting - some quality psych research suggest it might not completely - minorities can still harbor unconscious biases against their own minority. 

this stuff is insidious. It might help best not for the interviewer bias (because even if biased if all the applicants are biased in the same way as they the same minority then it all cancels out ), but rather interviewees perform better when reminders of the bias are removed from the process (people perform better when they aren't distracted by being reminded negative stereotypes even exist.) That would allow them to perform at their true peak level.

 

 

 

 

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Apologies for replying very late. 

A lot of replies are focusing on people of low ses backgrounds and failing to realize that black individuals often experience this intersection of both race and low ses. Let's not ignore the issues and barriers to medicine other people may face because of their background. It's hard to imagine if you can't experience it, but black individuals do experience this. 

The way some of you totally dismissed race in this thread made me wish I don't have future classmates like you...

Also, having a diverse class would probably make you a better doctor. 

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BSAP is a much better alternative to traditional affirmative action measures. Affirmative action traditionally RESERVES spots for certain racial groups, which improves the diversity of the medical school class. This is beneficial because the cultural assumptions of students get challenged and cultural competence as a whole is improved. The other benefit is that it allows physician diversity to reflect patient diversity (the rationale being that patient satisfaction is improved when physician ethnicity is the same as the patients). Now, the problem with affirmative action in the traditional sense is that it means certain groups of people are getting admitted to medical school with lower standards. This is a fact. Many argue that certain groups of people are discriminated against so they deserve this lower standard. How can we solve this problem in a fairer (but not perfect way)? 

BSAP. The numerical calculation of GPA is the same in BSAP. According to the website, the ONLY difference is that the non-academic portion is assessed by black physicians who have a better understanding of what it means to be black then say a white physician. Black students still have to reach the same total file review score; it's just that the subjective component is assessed by someone else who is black. This is a MUCH more fair way to account for the discrimination black individuals face, while still maintaining the rigorous standards of a successful medical school application. 

BSAP is not perfect.  High-income black individuals may benefit from the non-academic assessment. What about low-income white/Asian people? Why don't they receive any special assessment? These are complicated questions that medical school admissions will hopefully one day account for. 

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