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New Black Student Application Program (Bsap)


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" I'm not sure you understand the system completely .... what boost would these applicants be getting." If they weren't receiving a boost, then you wouldn't expect to see a change in the number of black students accepted (thus invalidating the objective of this program). You cannot be the beneficiary of a program yet simultaneously deny the existence of the selective benefits that is being conferred to you. Being able to proceed to a file review stage by meeting the 3.8GPA/500MCAT score is not the same as being accepted. And how does an affirmative action program "ameliorate psychological stigma?" And the argument that less qualified black people are being accepted over more qualified individuals is a proven fact, and not an unfounded argument.  Similar affirmative action programs exist in the states  - look up Chokal-Ingam - a brown/south asian man who was rejected to every single medical school but then accepted to every single medical school when reapplying under the pretense of being black with the exact same credentials. I cant speak for black students in Canada, as affirmative action is uncommon, but at least in the States, most black students were only accepted to higher level institutions through affirmative action (again there are plenty of statistics attesting to this, if you need me to reference a link I can).

I was hoping that this would be brought into the discussion. The affirmative action program in the States is not at all akin to the BSAP system proposed by the University of Toronto. These students are admitted with lesser academic profiles than their ethnically divergent counterparts. The numbers associated with this assertion may be readily accessed via google search. Students processed through BSAP aren't accepted after meeting the academic criteria, they are subjected to an interview process. A total systemic bias in favour of blacks is not necessitated to increase enrolment of black students (and that is not what BSAP is). This program shows members of the black community that they are considered equal and valuable within the field; this sentiment alone can spark interest and increase the proportion of black students applying to med school. I think you possess a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of AA, which is NOT in any way, shape or form encompassed in the BSAP model. As for your last remark, I would not disagree that a majority of those coloured individuals enrolled in higher institutions or professional degree programs in the States were processed through an AA admissions initiative (if it's there, you may as well use it). What I would appreciate is for you to realize that, like yourself, black people are intellectually capable and that interest cultivation + the rectification of existing stigma does not equate to catering to weakness or inadequacy. I recommend you reflect on your opinion of black students on a whole; your viewpoints seem quite antiquated and derogatory. 

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" I'm not sure you understand the system completely .... what boost would these applicants be getting." If they weren't receiving a boost, then you wouldn't expect to see a change in the number of black students accepted (thus invalidating the objective of this program). You cannot be the beneficiary of a program yet simultaneously deny the existence of the selective benefits that is being conferred to you. Being able to proceed to a file review stage by meeting the 3.8GPA/500MCAT score is not the same as being accepted. And how does an affirmative action program "ameliorate psychological stigma?" And the argument that less qualified black people are being accepted over more qualified individuals is a proven fact, and not an unfounded argument.  Similar affirmative action programs exist in the states  - look up Chokal-Ingam - a brown/south asian man who was rejected to every single medical school but then accepted to every single medical school when reapplying under the pretense of being black with the exact same credentials. I cant speak for black students in Canada, as affirmative action is uncommon, but at least in the States, most black students were only accepted to higher level institutions through affirmative action (again there are plenty of statistics attesting to this, if you need me to reference a link I can).

 

Ha, this is going to be interesting - I mean it is of course highly competitive to get into medical school. Anything in any fashion (language, place you grew up, heritage...) that is any form of bias is going to be attacked. 

 

Did your reference say why most were accepted only because of the plan? That automatically implies some force opposing them - I mean racism is of course the obvious answer but that effect should be somewhat measurable as it is not uniform across the entire country. Maybe there is something to be learned there. 

 

I remember reading the article about the sole medical student at TO - I was honestly surprised it was that low - the rate is higher at the schools I have attended solely based on my unscientific observations. If it is that low I think we have a serious problem - there may be different ways of handling it but deal with it we should. 

 

One question is even the concept of "over more qualified" applicants. There are a lot of people that think that beyond a very real point - one that is regularly exceeded in the applicant pool that you could pretty much randomly pick people for the interview and have the same outcome. I would suggest that someone who gets 3.97 GPA is not really more qualified than someone with a 3.92 as an example. Part of that comes from the idea that we have somewhat different selection criteria at all the schools - each valuing different aspects of the selection system more or less (MCAT - high, ok, not looked at all, look at just one section, GPA - high, relatively low, drop entire chunks, count everything, Interview - big factor, small factor, MMI, panel........) We are all over the map here. Yet the end result is basically the same - final exam scores are very similar which is the only objective measure we have for example. Why? I don't believe it is because the schools are really picking the best from different groups - I have a sense it is just because there are vastly more people that could make excellent doctors than available spots. It is extremely likely there is someone out there who would be a much better doctor than I will be that somehow I managed to beat out in the admission system (somewhat humbling thought, ha). 

 

We are always going to run up against the fairness for the students and the fairness for society in these. It is a socialized system after all - I paid and continue to pay a mere fraction of the cost to create the doctor I will become. There are real public health issues of not having people from all backgrounds represented in medicine (as an example the erasing of the gender gap in medicine has had actual changed the field in many important ways - ha, a timely point I suppose).

 

It is always going to be easy from this point on for me since I got in that we have to look at the bigger picture sometimes with this stuff - I am not sure I could be so dispassionate if I was currently waiting for TO to finally release the rest of the darn invites. I do remember being annoyed at SWOMEN's rules for Western when I was applying (I lived roughly one city over from their cutoff area). Having gone to that school I understand the value of it to the community we served there. Messy. 

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"The affirmative action program in the States is not at all akin to the BSAP system proposed by the University of Toronto. "

 

And how exactly would you know this? Were you involved in the development of this program? Black students are applying through a separate stream. They may have to meet the same minimum requirements, but they are not subjected to the same rigorous selection process that other students are subjected to. I was involved in the UofT file admission review in my second year of medical school. Essays are evaluated by several students through a blinded process and assigned a score. Students are accepted based on their final file review (highest score based on interview, essays, etc) from highest to lowest. Allowing black students to circumvent that process is tantamount to affirmative action. Affirmative action is any program that provides a selective advantage to a racial group over another. This is exactly what this program is designed to do - to allow black students who have file scores lower than other applicants to be accepted on the basis of their race in spite of less impressive qualifications under the guise of "holistic evaluation"

I was hoping that this would be brought into the discussion. The affirmative action program in the States is not at all akin to the BSAP system proposed by the University of Toronto. These students are admitted with lesser academic profiles than their ethnically divergent counterparts. The numbers associated with this assertion may be readily accessed via google search. Students processed through BSAP aren't accepted after meeting the academic criteria, they are subjected to an interview process. A total systemic bias in favour of blacks is not necessitated to increase enrolment of black students (and that is not what BSAP is). This program shows members of the black community that they are considered equal and valuable within the field; this sentiment alone can spark interest and increase the proportion of black students applying to med school. I think you possess a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of AA, which is NOT in any way, shape or form encompassed in the BSAP model. As for your last remark, I would not disagree that a majority of those coloured individuals enrolled in higher institutions or professional degree programs in the States were processed through an AA admissions initiative (if it's there, you may as well use it). What I would appreciate is for you to realize that, like yourself, black people are intellectually capable and that interest cultivation + the rectification of existing stigma does not equate to catering to weakness or inadequacy. I recommend you reflect on your opinion of black students on a whole; your viewpoints seem quite antiquated and derogatory. 

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Although I am admittedly more conservative than my friends who have worked to implement this new program, I have yet to engage in any discussion that went beyond "this is progress, check your privilege white boy." To me, I still do not understand how a separate application process is different than Separate but Equal, so I am confused as to how this is a progressive movement.

 

Many are in support of this because, "the standards are the same." This is not true. UofT, at least when I applied, had ridiculously low cut off points for it's stats (9/9/9 and low 3.0s GPA). The average accepted applicant had stats much higher than this. I can see the accomplishments of new Black matriculates marginalized due to being vetted through this alternate process.

 

Lastly, I do not feel that there is a need for this like there is a need for practitioners who understand populations such as Aboriginals. I have not encountered any systemic barrier to communication with Black people in my training, whereas I certainly have with Aboriginals. I am also unaware of any Black communities large enough in Canada to benefit from dedicated physicians, although I could be wrong about this (Nova Scotia?)

 

I am aware that I am not an expert on "experiences outside my race," but I do feel that the biggest barrier to application at this time is socioeconomic status and not race. I am sure UofT will enjoy the publicity though.

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Lastly, I do not feel that there is a need for this like there is a need for practitioners who understand populations such as Aboriginals. I have not encountered any systemic barrier to communication with Black people in my training, whereas I certainly have with Aboriginals. I am also unaware of any Black communities large enough in Canada to benefit from dedicated physicians, although I could be wrong about this (Nova Scotia?)

 

I am aware that I am not an expert on "experiences outside my race," but I do feel that the biggest barrier to application at this time is socioeconomic status and not race. I am sure UofT will enjoy the publicity though.

 

 

What constitutes a need for practitioners? ANY community is large enough to benefit from a physician who has more relatable lived experiences, someone they can look up to, someone who looks like them (the list can go on). This program is not to have "dedicated" Black physicians for Black communities. It is to have better representation across the workforce to make strides towards making systemic change. Every person should feel understood and respected by their physician; this should not be dependant on what proportion of the population you are. The comments in this thread go to show that future physicians do not understand the experiences of Black populations. This is precisely why this program has been implemented and why the current system is so problematic for many minorities. 

 

Your experiences related to "communication" with Black people are irrelevant. One person's lack experiences doesn't make up for all of the people who are continuously discriminated against as a result of the colour of their skin. As you mentioned in your comment, you should feel privileged that you don't have those experiences. I'm glad you are aware that you're not an expert on experiences outside your race...that means that your "feelings" on the biggest barrier to application are difficult to actually gauge since you do not have that lived experience.

 

FYI Toronto's Black population is 8% ... is that large enough??? 

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"By implementing BSAP, we hope to break down some of the barriers that might impede black students from applying and nurture an inclusive environment that is welcoming to all,”

 

I really hope that this program helps accomplish this goal. However, if the so called "barriers" that they are referring to are application costs etc. that I read in another article, there are more applicants than just black people that face those barriers. Just saying. However, I am all for increasing awareness and comfortability of making the journey feeling more welcoming to different types of communities. I guess we'll see. 

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"By implementing BSAP, we hope to break down some of the barriers that might impede black students from applying and nurture an inclusive environment that is welcoming to all,”

 

I really hope that this program helps accomplish this goal. However, if the so called "barriers" that they are referring to are application costs etc. that I read in another article, there are more applicants than just black people that face those barriers. Just saying. However, I am all for increasing awareness and comfortability of making the journey feeling more welcoming to different types of communities. I guess we'll see. 

 

that is one of the troubles with any system - there were people in every single other group where money, lack of role models ...... will add resistance to their application. Ha, in a perfect world we would be able to tailor things perfect in order to optimize for the best doctors to be produced ultimately. That is insanely difficult and some heuristics have to be employed at some point - this program is one such heuristic :) 

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"By implementing BSAP, we hope to break down some of the barriers that might impede black students from applying and nurture an inclusive environment that is welcoming to all,”

 

I really hope that this program helps accomplish this goal. However, if the so called "barriers" that they are referring to are application costs etc. that I read in another article, there are more applicants than just black people that face those barriers. Just saying. However, I am all for increasing awareness and comfortability of making the journey feeling more welcoming to different types of communities. I guess we'll see. 

 

 

...all lives matter? 

 

can we not just take a positive step at face value? sure, there are other groups who face barriers as well; however, this is one step forward. 

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I apologize for any condemnation incurred by those voicing their concerns regarding the BSAP program and the insinuative principles behind such an initiative. I am not attempting to invalidate your concerns, nor do I deem your positions to be 'racist' or 'bigoted'; this is a free space for the respectful exchange of ideas and opinions, and I'm grateful to be able to see some valid points of concern be raised. Blacks are underrepresented amongst the cohort of Ontarian medical students, as well as the field of medicine as a whole. For me, this never raised many issues; my white pediatrician was a wonderful man who often-times motivated me to realize my true potential. My asian family physician is a thorough and attentive practitioner who I feel values me as a patient and as a person. However, within the black community, I have talked to a number of individuals who feel as though they cannot connect with their physician, and consequentially do not receive optimal care; they are adamant that they would like to be seen by a person of colour, who may better understand them as a person. One such circumstance resulted in a suicide attempt by a family member who didn't access appropriate care due to these very reasons. Whether their trepidations are valid is another story; but it is not our role to decide who's beliefs are valid, our role as potential healthcare providers will be to provide optimal care to the people of Ontario. So, while the BSAP program is not necessarily fair to the rest of the applicant pool, I do believe it provides some compromise, insofar as that it screens just as rigorously for academic competency, and still requires a written component as well as an interview component (albeit varied from the main stream). 

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These medical schools serve more than your feelings (or mine, as a white settler). They serve their diverse communities. Black Canadians face institutional racism, and I'm glad that UofT is improving its application process by acknowledging the systemic barriers that Black students face, and by providing Black students with an application process where they might feel seen and safe. Well done UofT. 

 

Also, calling out racism isn't offensive. I think this forum brings to light some of the racism and judgement that Black medical students face from peers in medical school. 

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affirmative action for black people? I definitely agree that black people are underrepresented but that's mostly because they aren't many black students with the required GPA and MCAT scores given how competitive the UofT admissions program is (avg acceptance GPA being 3.96). It's ridiculous that they have to give them a boost in the admissions process. Though to be fair I'm studying in UofT medicine right now, and there isn't a single black student in my class of 270. I guess in a year or so we will know which students were accepted through this affirmative action program and who wasn't.

 

There are definitely black students at UofT medicine in all 4 years (1T7 to 2T0), and I know this for a fact.

 

You are either not in medicine at UofT or don't know your class or probably (and more likely) just a troll

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  • 3 months later...
On 8 mars 2017 at 11:11 AM, 5.98e24 said:

"Black Student Application Program (BSAP) is an optional application stream for Black applicants who self-identify as Black African, Black Caribbean, Black North American, multi-racial students who have and identify with their Black ancestry, etc. The aim of this application program is to increase and support Black medical student representation at the University of Toronto. Through BSAP we hope to break down some of the barriers that might impede black students from applying and nurture an inclusive environment that is welcoming to all."

If I'm white but self-identify as black, can I apply ?

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On 3/10/2017 at 1:31 PM, anbessa21 said:

I apologize for any condemnation incurred by those voicing their concerns regarding the BSAP program and the insinuative principles behind such an initiative. I am not attempting to invalidate your concerns, nor do I deem your positions to be 'racist' or 'bigoted'; this is a free space for the respectful exchange of ideas and opinions, and I'm grateful to be able to see some valid points of concern be raised. Blacks are underrepresented amongst the cohort of Ontarian medical students, as well as the field of medicine as a whole. For me, this never raised many issues; my white pediatrician was a wonderful man who often-times motivated me to realize my true potential. My asian family physician is a thorough and attentive practitioner who I feel values me as a patient and as a person. However, within the black community, I have talked to a number of individuals who feel as though they cannot connect with their physician, and consequentially do not receive optimal care; they are adamant that they would like to be seen by a person of colour, who may better understand them as a person. One such circumstance resulted in a suicide attempt by a family member who didn't access appropriate care due to these very reasons. Whether their trepidations are valid is another story; but it is not our role to decide who's beliefs are valid, our role as potential healthcare providers will be to provide optimal care to the people of Ontario. So, while the BSAP program is not necessarily fair to the rest of the applicant pool, I do believe it provides some compromise, insofar as that it screens just as rigorously for academic competency, and still requires a written component as well as an interview component (albeit varied from the main stream). 

A well worded and thought out post. Still however, I disagree with your premise and reasoning.

I reject the notion that one needs to be of the same race/complexion as another to provide adequate care. If a certain demographic has a particularly strong interest in seeing a physician of the same race, there should be no obligate responsibility from healthcare providers to match this demand even if it prevents optimal care (though not if it prevents adequate/standard care).

A recent high profile situation recently occurred with a similar line of reasoning being used by a very unreasonable patient.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/06/21/mississauga-womans-demand-for-english-speaking-doctor-spoke-volumes-paradkar.html

Given her attitude and mistrust towards physicians of certain demographics, it's very likely that in fact she would receive suboptimal care (because she'd be less trusting, potentially less compliant, etc.). 

Would her demands have been acceptable if was more tactful/nicer about it? Would her demands have been reasonable if she was of another race? Did the "system" fail the patient by not having a physician of a certain race available? 

For me the answer to all of these questions is no.

Fundamentally to be able to provide adequate care, a physician must be a medical expert & good communicator. These are skills that are chiefly determined by individual characteristics, not race. A Canadian physician of any race would have almost certainly been able to provide the Missisauga woman with adequate care (the standard with which we are and should be held to).

In addition to that, given the fact that affirmative action is inherently unfair to applicants via racial preferences, I am very much against affirmative action and similar policies being implemented in Canadian medical school admissions especially if it's under the guise of better care.

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I am not black, nor well educated enough about the subject matter to voice an opinion about BASP. However, I am aware that there is a rich history of black Nova Scotians in Canada. Can anybody comment on how systemic barriers and racism affect black nova scotians and how Dalhousie considers students who are black Nova Scotians in their admissions process? What has been the outcomes?

Also how do black people in Nova Scotia differ from those in Toronto? How do these differences affect representation in the medical profession? Quality of care received by non-black physicians? Or even perception of non-black physicians in the care? 

Not instigating anything, just curious, eager and willing to listen (or read, lol)!

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On 2017-03-09 at 11:08 PM, belgusziwar said:

"The affirmative action program in the States is not at all akin to the BSAP system proposed by the University of Toronto. "

 

And how exactly would you know this? Were you involved in the development of this program? Black students are applying through a separate stream. They may have to meet the same minimum requirements, but they are not subjected to the same rigorous selection process that other students are subjected to. I was involved in the UofT file admission review in my second year of medical school. Essays are evaluated by several students through a blinded process and assigned a score. Students are accepted based on their final file review (highest score based on interview, essays, etc) from highest to lowest. Allowing black students to circumvent that process is tantamount to affirmative action. Affirmative action is any program that provides a selective advantage to a racial group over another. This is exactly what this program is designed to do - to allow black students who have file scores lower than other applicants to be accepted on the basis of their race in spite of less impressive qualifications under the guise of "holistic evaluation"

And how exactly would you know this?

Black students are not circumventing any process - you have no evidence for your statement that Black students will be allowed in with lower 'stats'. Please watch this video which clearly outlines what BSAP is about: 


The only difference is having a BSAP specific essay where one outlines " why they have chosen to apply through this application stream "  and that your file review and interview will include a Black physician/Black community member as part of the interview panel/6 member independent file rating panel, if you make it that far.

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4 hours ago, Clapton said:

If I'm white but self-identify as black, can I apply ?

I am sure you can self-identify as Black at the level of OMSAS application and submit your application. But good luck explaining your experiences as a Black person and why you decided to apply through the BSAP stream at the interviews/essay :)

 

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I don’t get it. Instead of providing a clearly disadvantaged population with an obvious leg-up in the admissions process, shouldn’t the focus be on providing black students the extra/ appropriate support, resources, connections, mentors etc. they need to achieve the same credentials as everyone else ? 

I agree with the overall intentions of BSAP and as several of you have mentioned, many black applicants do apply and are apparently not in par with other applicants (due to intraculturally conserved circumstantial shortcomings). However, I think having a special admissions committee evaluating them + having them writing an essay on why they could not be competitive as everyone else (which is completely expected) is just a shortcut and is not actually the solving the root cause of the bigger problem. 

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1 hour ago, luciferase said:

I don’t get it. Instead of providing a clearly disadvantaged population with an obvious leg-up in the admissions process, shouldn’t the focus be on providing black students the extra/ appropriate support, resources, connections, mentors etc. they need to achieve the same credentials as everyone else ? 

I agree with the overall intentions of BSAP and as several of you have mentioned, many black applicants do apply and are apparently not in par with other applicants (due to intraculturally conserved circumstantial shortcomings). However, I think having a special admissions committee evaluating them + having them writing an essay on why they could not be competitive as everyone else (which is completely expected) is just a shortcut and is not actually the solving the root cause of the bigger problem. 

I disagree with your opinion on there being an "obvious leg up" provided to applicants who choose to apply through BSAP. With this implied notion, the same question could/should be asked of applicants who apply through the indigenous student application program? How about students who recently completed their masters being given a leg up?? What about students who completed a PhD recently??? The latter 2 of which have distinctly low wGPA requirements (3.0 cutoff) to gain admission to the UGME program at U of T. Historically low GPAs of sub 3.5 have been admitted to U of T's UGME for students who have completed their Masters or PhD, so lets not turn a blind eye to these facts, which seem acceptable somehow....

Aside from instituting the BSAP program, the Community of Support has also been instilled which aims to provide future applicants or aspiring students from these disadvantaged populations with access to physician mentors/connections/resources and information services that will overall bolster their applications and address the dichotomy that exist between students from certain ethnic or racial backgrounds. This will provide future students with the same opportunities as everyone else.

I also disagree with the notion that many black/brown applicants do indeed apply and are not accepted because they are not on par with their peers. First, U of T's UGME has never collected information about an applicants race prior to this BSAP application cycle, so the school itself wouldn't know which applicant is black/brown, white or asian (until the interview stage) rendering this notion moot. Second, all applicants are free to write an academic explanation essay that can explain there shortcomings (which current UGME students who I personally know have done so to their advantage).

Lastly, being evaluated by your own peer group is currently the norm for many of the current applicants to the program. So for a student who comes from a disadvantaged population (be it indigenous or black/brown) it does seem fair that they are afforded the same opportunity, allowing for their differences to be noticed, and not glossed over under the guise of "normalcy". 

Ultimately, there is no set quota, and U of T will not lower their standards just to say they have students from a particular racial background. This is bigger than that and is more than likely aimed at addressing a systemic issue that persists across academia. What the results will be, only time will tell but it's a good step forward in my book.

Regards,

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On July 6, 2017 at 11:40 PM, MD4DM44 said:

How about students who recently completed their masters being given a leg up?? What about students who completed a PhD recently??? The latter 2 of which have distinctly low wGPA requirements (3.0 cutoff) to gain admission to the UGME program at U of T. Historically low GPAs of sub 3.5 have been admitted to U of T's UGME for students who have completed their Masters or PhD, so lets not turn a blind eye to these facts, which seem acceptable somehow....

I disagree that graduate applicants are given a leg up - they are just evaluated differently from "normal"/traditional  undergrad applicants, and as such, the admissions committee seeks different qualities from such applicants. As re-iterated on UofT's website, graduate students are deemed competitive based on research productivity, first authorship in publications and the tenor of their  academic CV ( which undergrads are not required to submit). Also, GPA is just one component of the selection criteria, and coupled with the different type of file review screening/evaluation used for graduate students, the lower GPA requirement for graduate applicants does not indicate an unfair selection process, in my opinion. Additionally, it is important to note that the average GPA for the incoming classes over the past few years has been around the likes of ~3.95 (and increasing), which is fairly high; thus this suggests that a majority of the incoming class (including grad applicants) did have a fairly decent/ competitive GPA (this assumption is an estimate however, as there are no published stats on this). Not to mention that grad students go through additional schooling, experiences etc. which may make them more experienced, insightful and knowledgeable than younger candidates. 

On July 6, 2017 at 11:40 PM, MD4DM44 said:

Lastly, being evaluated by your own peer group is currently the norm for many of the current applicants to the program. So for a student who comes from a disadvantaged population (be it indigenous or black/brown) it does seem fair that they are afforded the same opportunity, allowing for their differences to be noticed, and not glossed over under the guise of "normalcy".

In my opinion, this notion of it being unfair to be evaluated by someone who comes from a different background/ skin colour creates further divide in the population. Essentially, are we hoping to move towards a future where individuals form all ethnicities/ skin colours/ backgrounds etc. feel that it is absolutely necessary to be evaluated by someone that is a part of their specific group/ population, in order to be fairly evaluated ? And, as you mentioned, the academic explanations essay does exist (in addition to other personal statements) to allow applicants to provide an explanation of their specific disadvantages/cultural circumstances - so I guess my question is: why the need for a special committee to further understand those disadvantages ? 

-luciferase 

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On 2017-07-07 at 9:33 PM, luciferase said:

why the need for a special committee to further understand those disadvantages ? 

-luciferase 

sigh ..

the committee does not create a disadvantage for the students applying through the bsap. also, it does not create a disadvantage for students not applying through the bsap. 

you're literally asking what the point is to have a committe to better understand someone's disadvantages? i'm not quite sure how anyone can have trouble understanding the point of that. 

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2 hours ago, icanmakeyourmedrock said:

you're literally asking what the point is to have a committe to better understand someone's disadvantages?

Yes, in fact I am. Because its ironic how other people who write an academic explanations essay for their disadvantages don't get to have a special committee arranged for them; one that is  specifically catered to/resembles their background, ethnicity etc. 

2 hours ago, icanmakeyourmedrock said:

i'm not quite sure how anyone can have trouble understanding the point of that.

LOL! If it were that black and white, I'm sure there wouldn't be an active thread/debate on this topic ... 

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