Applying to Top US Schools - Chances?

[monkeyroo]

Hi all -

I just finished my sophomore year at a Canadian school. My MCAT went quite a bit better than expected, and so I've started considering the States. I think I'd have a pretty good shot at getting into some Canadian schools; given the stellar quality of education in Canada and how much more expensive US schools are, it seems to make sense to only consider 'top' US schools where it might be worth it to go on the basis of prestige, strength in research, and connections.

Given that I have just started considering US schools, I'm quite unfamiliar with the process, with the things that schools look for, and with what the profile of an accepted student at a top school might look like.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on how competitive I am for top schools. Also, as I have a full year left before I can apply, I'd like to hear what you think I should focus my time on during my junior year to maximize my chances.
Academic: 
cGPA/sGPA: 4.00
MCAT: 526 (132/132/130/132)

I'm Canadian; not a US Citizen or permanent resident. Also south asian - so ORM? I attend a local MD-granting institution - a good school, but not one with name recognition. 

Research: Lots - this has been a focus. 3 summers and 2 years of experience so far. 3 2nd-author papers and a middle-author currently, a couple of presentations at national conferences, and I'm likely to have two or more 1st-author papers by the time I apply.

Extracurriculars: Probably middling to high? I lead a science education nonprofit with a nationwide presence; was a founding member of, led, and now consult for another large science education non-profit where I focused on developing programming for disadvantaged students; have a lot of mentoring experience, and paid teaching experience for intro physics, as well as some other course design and educational programming construction experience. Also, several hundred hours of leading volunteer groups in high school. 

Clinical/shadowing: Limited; only have shadowed a couple of times, and some tangential clinical experience through research. Might get some more with a continuing care research project I'm working on in the fall. 

These are some of the schools I was considering. For this school list, I'm curious whether I'm aiming too high, and if there are schools at the top end that I ought to be considering but am not.

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
UCSF
UPenn
Weill Cornell

Possibly:
Columbia
NYU
Yale
Vanderbilt

For MD/PhD: (it's hard to find schools that will fund Canadians!)
Harvard MD/PhD
Tri-I (Weill Cornell/Rockefeller/MSK) MD/PhD
UPenn MD/PhD

Thank you for taking the time to read through - and, for those of you reply, thanks so much in advance for your thoughts.

[uncharted1114]

You have a pretty decent shot with your MCAT if you can keep up your GPA and have a strong personal statement. Research seems strong. Extracurriculars are fine; nobody cares about what you did in high school for medical school admissions, only undergrad. Maybe try to get more shadowing in if you can.

When I applied a couple of years ago, I applied to pretty much every top school that offered need- or merit-based aid to Canadians, and this was the list I came up with. I'd recommend you apply to all of them if you're serious about going down the US school route. My list was very northeast-heavy since that's where I wanted to end up geographically, so there could be other schools on this list that I'm missing. 

Offers need-based aid:
- Harvard
- Stanford
- Hopkins
- Columbia
- Yale
- Duke
- Vanderbilt
- Mayo
- Dartmouth
- Northwestern

Chance for merit-based aid or will waive escrow requirement for Canadians:
- UChicago
- UPenn
- Cornell
- Brown
- NYU
- Emory
- Boston University
- WashU

I wouldn't even bother with UCSF since they essentially never accept internationals as a state school and they won't give you any financial aid. You might try UCLA though, since they offer a significant number of full-tuition scholarships that internationals are supposedly eligible for. I don't know anything about MD/PhD programs except that Harvard, Dartmouth, and UPenn will fund international students.

[monkeyroo]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:40 PM, uncharted1114 said:

You have a pretty decent shot with your MCAT if you can keep up your GPA and have a strong personal statement. Research seems strong. Extracurriculars are fine; nobody cares about what you did in high school for medical school admissions, only undergrad. Maybe try to get more shadowing in if you can.

When I applied a couple of years ago, I applied to pretty much every top school that offered need- or merit-based aid to Canadians, and this was the list I came up with. I'd recommend you apply to all of them if you're serious about going down the US school route. My list was very northeast-heavy since that's where I wanted to end up geographically, so there could be other schools on this list that I'm missing. 

Offers need-based aid:
- Harvard
- Stanford
- Hopkins
- Columbia
- Yale
- Duke
- Vanderbilt
- Mayo
- Dartmouth
- Northwestern

Chance for merit-based aid or will waive escrow requirement for Canadians:
- UChicago
- UPenn
- Cornell
- Brown
- NYU
- Emory
- Boston University
- WashU

I wouldn't even bother with UCSF since they essentially never accept internationals as a state school and they won't give you any financial aid. You might try UCLA though, since they offer a significant number of full-tuition scholarships that internationals are supposedly eligible for. I don't know anything about MD/PhD programs except that Harvard, Dartmouth, and UPenn will fund international students.

uncharted1114,

Thanks so much for sharing your list, and for the thought and time that you put into your response.

I'm not exactly sure how 'serious' I am about the states. I need to think more clearly about what benefits attending there will bring me, as opposed to trying for Canada - especially as I think I'd have a good shot here. That might lead me to constrain my school list a bit further to only schools I'd attend over a Canadian school. 

Could I ask whether you ended up in the US, and what drove you to apply down south? I'd be very interested in chatting off PM101 (perhaps briefly via voice chat?) about your experience applying down south as a Canadian, and would be grateful for any other insights you might have.

[uncharted1114]

I went to a top US school for undergrad and decided I wanted to stay in the US because of friends, relationships, less snow and cold, etc. I was also in a weird position with my MCAT/GPA/school reputation where I was very competitive for a lot of top US med schools but not very competitive for Canadian schools. I had planned on applying to at least a couple of Canadian schools but I had a lot of interview offers at US schools by the time I would have submitted my app so I didn't bother.

[JohnGrisham]

Since you're only entering 3rd year, theres no reason to rush to the US over Canada. I'd keep your focus on Canada for medical school especially since GPA/MCAT are solid thus far.  That is, if you specifically want to be in Canada for long term, life's a lot easier(and cheaper, baring big scholarships) just doing medical school and residency in Canada.

You note that you're going to apply next summer(before you begin 4th year), i would say given your stats, i would hold off on that until after your 4th year, if for some reason you don't get into medical school on your first application. It does happen even happen sometimes for super strong stats apps, if the interview goes wonky or you just get plain unlucky. Give Canada a strong first shot, and then the 2nd app if it comes to it, apply both.  Because if you apply to the US and get in on the first attempt, applying summer before 4th year, but didn't get into Canada, then you'd probably accept and forgo applying a 2nd time to Canada- even though you could very well get in the 2nd attempt. 

Of course different people have different needs/perspectives on this.

[canucks_14]

hi monkeyroo, it appears that your application will not get you accepted to a top US program if you coast for your last two years. youre ORM from a school with no prestige. If they are denying ORMS with research and clinical experiences that are MUCH better than yours (they've been perfecting it since day 1), and they went to college at harvard,MIT,oxford, and yet these students are not gaining a spot in the medical schools you listed. The school doesn't matter but the application does and it is clear your application is lacking in some areas, while strong so far in others. So I mean I don't have an answer for you to take. It is not clear to me how you could possibly get off the train while it is still moving so fast.

[monkeyroo]

On 8/7/2017 at 6:49 PM, uncharted1114 said:

I went to a top US school for undergrad and decided I wanted to stay in the US because of friends, relationships, less snow and cold, etc. I was also in a weird position with my MCAT/GPA/school reputation where I was very competitive for a lot of top US med schools but not very competitive for Canadian schools. I had planned on applying to at least a couple of Canadian schools but I had a lot of interview offers at US schools by the time I would have submitted my app so I didn't bother.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, uncharted1114! Makes a lot of sense. 

10 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Since you're only entering 3rd year, theres no reason to rush to the US over Canada. I'd keep your focus on Canada for medical school especially since GPA/MCAT are solid thus far.  That is, if you specifically want to be in Canada for long term, life's a lot easier(and cheaper, baring big scholarships) just doing medical school and residency in Canada.

You note that you're going to apply next summer(before you begin 4th year), i would say given your stats, i would hold off on that until after your 4th year, if for some reason you don't get into medical school on your first application. It does happen even happen sometimes for super strong stats apps, if the interview goes wonky or you just get plain unlucky. Give Canada a strong first shot, and then the 2nd app if it comes to it, apply both.  Because if you apply to the US and get in on the first attempt, applying summer before 4th year, but didn't get into Canada, then you'd probably accept and forgo applying a 2nd time to Canada- even though you could very well get in the 2nd attempt. 

Of course different people have different needs/perspectives on this.

JohnGrisham, could I ask why you say life is a lot easier doing my MD/residency in Canada if I want to be in Canada long term? My understanding of the CARMS process is that I'd still be considered in the first round if I have Canadian citizenship and attend a LCME-accredited school, even if that school is in the US. I'm not sure what it'd look like if I were to do a residency in the states, though. Would be very interested to hear the rationale behind your thoughts.

I'd be looking at the US less as a backup, and more so as a 'moonshot' at certain top schools where attending might be advantageous over attending in Canada. In your mind, is this a logical option? I think this might change the dynamic of what you suggested, because if I were to apply to certain top US schools and many Canadian schools in the summer before my fourth year, and only get to the former, attending school in the US might be preferable to attending in Canada. This, of course, depends on where I want to end up practicing and how tricky it would be to come back... which are other things I need to consider further. 

[Monkey D. Luffy]

4 hours ago, monkeyroo said:

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, uncharted1114! Makes a lot of sense. 

JohnGrisham, could I ask why you say life is a lot easier doing my MD/residency in Canada if I want to be in Canada long term? My understanding of the CARMS process is that I'd still be considered in the first round if I have Canadian citizenship and attend a LCME-accredited school, even if that school is in the US. I'm not sure what it'd look like if I were to do a residency in the states, though. Would be very interested to hear the rationale behind your thoughts.

I'd be looking at the US less as a backup, and more so as a 'moonshot' at certain top schools where attending might be advantageous over attending in Canada. In your mind, is this a logical option? I think this might change the dynamic of what you suggested, because if I were to apply to certain top US schools and many Canadian schools in the summer before my fourth year, and only get to the former, attending school in the US might be preferable to attending in Canada. This, of course, depends on where I want to end up practicing and how tricky it would be to come back... which are other things I need to consider further. 

So if you want to practice medicine in Canada, there are a few reasons why Canadian schools would make your life a bit easier:

1) All the English Canadian medical schools are P/F whereas most schools in the US have grades of some sort so you need to put in more work during the year to stand out whereas in Canada you can learn what you need/want to know and can focus more on high yield clerkship skills such as taking a good history and physical rather than more minute physiology details for example.

2) If you want to practice in Canada, you don't need any of the USMLE steps. A lot of Canadians still take them to leave options for fellowship/work in US open but to work in Canada you won't need to take it.

3) It's easier to match to a Canadian school as a CMG. You have more elective time in Canada whereas in the US you would be splitting Canada/US electives, you would have a home school to fall back on where you can make connections/network from M1, and it will be easier to get Canadian reference letters so you will likely be a more known quantity than someone from the US.

Now granted, you could do a US school, US residency and then come back to Canada if you choose, but for a lot of residencies in the US that are <5 years, you would need to jump through some hoops to make that training equivalent in Canada (supervised clinical practice, fellowship, etc.) And arguably if you choose to come back to Canada to practice clinical medicine, the fact that you attended a top US med school will really not provide a benefit.

Keep in mind the US school will also likely cost you a LOT more, so you would clearly need to define what it is that you are looking to gain out of your career from attending there and whether that is worth the hundreds of thousands you are setting yourself back initially. IMO, I would decide it based on where you would like to end up working. If you want to work in the US, I think the top US school will open so many doors for you. If you want to work in Canada, the school won't matter. So I guess the US school is also the more flexible option if you aren't sure where you want to be or what you want to be doing yet but you will have to decide if the above reasons are worth taking the US school offer.

I hope that helps!

[QuebecMD1]

Doesn't Harvard offer need-based scholarship?

[canucks_14]

how are you going to fund all of this? 

 

Look no one here went to harvard so everyone is still protecting their own egos. Plus everyone wants you to stay here in Canada too to help us out. We need way more physician investigators which is why I am personally leaving Canada. But have you thought about how much more competitive Harvard is going to be than your local provincial MD granting school? Anyways your MCAT is great so you just need to sit down and figure out all the answers to your own questions which is something you should easily be able to do especially if you're applying to a medical scientist training program at harvard university. Also your questions are much too broad for anyone to provide meaningful input to you. You're essentially asking a bunch of Canadians if it's worthwhile to go to the best medical programs on the planet? if you have a need for validation then it will be very tough to set accepted into Harvard for that reason as well. good luck!

also but I'll save you lots of time and money. Your research experience is not good enough for any top program. Have you completed any schooling or research in the US as well? 

[JohnGrisham]

34 minutes ago, canucks_14 said:

how are you going to fund all of this? 

 

Look no one here went to harvard so everyone is still protecting their own egos. Plus everyone wants you to stay here in Canada too to help us out. We need way more physician investigators which is why I am personally leaving Canada. But have you thought about how much more competitive Harvard is going to be than your local provincial MD granting school? Anyways your MCAT is great so you just need to sit down and figure out all the answers to your own questions which is something you should easily be able to do especially if you're applying to a medical scientist training program at harvard university. Also your questions are much too broad for anyone to provide meaningful input to you. You're essentially asking a bunch of Canadians if it's worthwhile to go to the best medical programs on the planet? if you have a need for validation then it will be very tough to set accepted into Harvard for that reason as well. good luck!

also but I'll save you lots of time and money. Your research experience is not good enough for any top program. Have you completed any schooling or research in the US as well? 

I know of 3 people who ended up at Ivy league medical/dental schools(Harvard included) who were rejected by the respective schools in Canada. They are just as competitive if not more, but not necessarily in the same ways. In canada if you miss a specific requirement for a given school, you're barred from applying - whereas that isn't the case in the US, where you can objectively compensate one fault with something else. 

It seems like you may be projecting onto the OP and putting words in their mouth.

Nowhere did they say or imply they would be "coasting their last 2 years".  Also your assertion that "The school doesn't matter but the application does and it is clear your application is lacking in some areas" is again making an assumption about the OPs ECs being lacking, while from what they have stated actually look fairly decent - especially considering they only have 2 years of undergrad under their belt.

As well "everyone wants you to stay in Canada to help us out" - not sure what you mean by that, I don't think anyone has a vested interest in OP staying here, other than informing them it would be easier should they study medicine in Canada if they want to practice here.

Not sure if you got out of bed on the wrong side this morning canucks_14, but you're in no position to tell OP "Your research experience is not good enough for any top program".   A cursory look at their research experience shows that they are actually on very strong ground for their research, definitely above average - especially considering they are only 2 years into university.    With top programs their is a lot of luck, and they look for a variety of applicants, so it is very hard to know if OP will be competitive or not. But they are certainly not uncompetitive given the current context of their application.



 

[canucks_14]

Yes I agree with everything you said. These are all true points I did not consider. I sure hope OPs experiences are good enough for him/her to be competitive. Thank you again so much for your reply. 

 

Also did not mean to project. Yes so OP, an implication of what Johngrisham said is, an applicant might have to choose which path they want to go down. Grisham is saying you might get into Harvard but not Manitoba or any other provincial school. This is very true, and it's kind of strange as I have an inclination towards standardization. But if you can make your app competitive for the Canadian schools you want as well as the American ones, then you'll be set? Easier said than done of course which is why there are some schools I'm not even bothering with because I won't be competitive there even though id like to have the option of attending there. And then I think a mentor is really valuable if you want to take the research far. You can get familiar with research interests of the medical schools and their research focuses and then if there is research that jumps out to you, well then that would be a natural fit then as that is how many of the students down south make their decisions. 

[monkeyroo]

On 8/9/2017 at 1:46 AM, Monkey D. Luffy said:

So if you want to practice medicine in Canada, there are a few reasons why Canadian schools would make your life a bit easier:

1) All the English Canadian medical schools are P/F whereas most schools in the US have grades of some sort so you need to put in more work during the year to stand out whereas in Canada you can learn what you need/want to know and can focus more on high yield clerkship skills such as taking a good history and physical rather than more minute physiology details for example.

2) If you want to practice in Canada, you don't need any of the USMLE steps. A lot of Canadians still take them to leave options for fellowship/work in US open but to work in Canada you won't need to take it.

3) It's easier to match to a Canadian school as a CMG. You have more elective time in Canada whereas in the US you would be splitting Canada/US electives, you would have a home school to fall back on where you can make connections/network from M1, and it will be easier to get Canadian reference letters so you will likely be a more known quantity than someone from the US.

Now granted, you could do a US school, US residency and then come back to Canada if you choose, but for a lot of residencies in the US that are <5 years, you would need to jump through some hoops to make that training equivalent in Canada (supervised clinical practice, fellowship, etc.) And arguably if you choose to come back to Canada to practice clinical medicine, the fact that you attended a top US med school will really not provide a benefit.

Keep in mind the US school will also likely cost you a LOT more, so you would clearly need to define what it is that you are looking to gain out of your career from attending there and whether that is worth the hundreds of thousands you are setting yourself back initially. IMO, I would decide it based on where you would like to end up working. If you want to work in the US, I think the top US school will open so many doors for you. If you want to work in Canada, the school won't matter. So I guess the US school is also the more flexible option if you aren't sure where you want to be or what you want to be doing yet but you will have to decide if the above reasons are worth taking the US school offer.

I hope that helps!

Monkey D. Luffy,

Firstly - I'm a fan of your online monk-ier! Thanks so much for your well-articulated comments. Not all top US schools are graded - Yale comes to mind, for example - but your point is generally true, and grading system is a factor that I hadn't previously considered. And regardless of grading system, USMLE Step 1 seems to be more minutia-focused than Canadian education, which could contribute to the same phenomenon at Canadian schools. While some Canadian med students do take these exams, my top choice in Canada would be one of our three-year schools - do you know how feasible it is to take and do well on those exams in that setting?

Your points on matching to a Canadian school and coming back to Canada post-US residency are also excellent, and you're right, I need to do some further thinking about how attending such a school would benefit me, which requires more clearly defining my future career and location goals. It'd be tough to take the US school route just on the off chance that I might want to work in the US in the future. 

On 8/9/2017 at 11:52 AM, QuebecMD1 said:

Doesn't Harvard offer need-based scholarship?

Yes, HMS offers need-based aid to international students. 

[monkeyroo]

8 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

I know of 3 people who ended up at Ivy league medical/dental schools(Harvard included) who were rejected by the respective schools in Canada. They are just as competitive if not more, but not necessarily in the same ways. In canada if you miss a specific requirement for a given school, you're barred from applying - whereas that isn't the case in the US, where you can objectively compensate one fault with something else. 

It seems like you may be projecting onto the OP and putting words in their mouth.

Nowhere did they say or imply they would be "coasting their last 2 years".  Also your assertion that "The school doesn't matter but the application does and it is clear your application is lacking in some areas" is again making an assumption about the OPs ECs being lacking, while from what they have stated actually look fairly decent - especially considering they only have 2 years of undergrad under their belt.

As well "everyone wants you to stay in Canada to help us out" - not sure what you mean by that, I don't think anyone has a vested interest in OP staying here, other than informing them it would be easier should they study medicine in Canada if they want to practice here.

Not sure if you got out of bed on the wrong side this morning canucks_14, but you're in no position to tell OP "Your research experience is not good enough for any top program".   A cursory look at their research experience shows that they are actually on very strong ground for their research, definitely above average - especially considering they are only 2 years into university.    With top programs their is a lot of luck, and they look for a variety of applicants, so it is very hard to know if OP will be competitive or not. But they are certainly not uncompetitive given the current context of their application.



 

JohnGrisham, thanks once again for your thoughts and confidence. You're right in that I certainly don't plan to coast in my last two years, and, canucks_14, that's much of the point of this thread - to identify where my time in the years I have left will be most effectively used. Based on what it seems like US schools look for, though, my shadowing and clinical time will need some beefing up! 

8 hours ago, canucks_14 said:

Yes I agree with everything you said. These are all true points I did not consider. I sure hope OPs experiences are good enough for him/her to be competitive. Thank you again so much for your reply. 

 

Also did not mean to project. Yes so OP, an implication of what Johngrisham said is, an applicant might have to choose which path they want to go down. Grisham is saying you might get into Harvard but not Manitoba or any other provincial school. This is very true, and it's kind of strange as I have an inclination towards standardization. But if you can make your app competitive for the Canadian schools you want as well as the American ones, then you'll be set? Easier said than done of course which is why there are some schools I'm not even bothering with because I won't be competitive there even though id like to have the option of attending there. And then I think a mentor is really valuable if you want to take the research far. You can get familiar with research interests of the medical schools and their research focuses and then if there is research that jumps out to you, well then that would be a natural fit then as that is how many of the students down south make their decisions. 

Canucks_14, couple of comments. Like I mentioned, US schools have only recently been put on my radar, as a consequence of my MCAT score - and I find it very valuable to couple my own thinking on the questions I'm faced with with the perspectives of those more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I'd also add that it's not unequivocally worthwhile to attend a top US school - such a choice depends on your career and location goals (as other posters have aptly highlighted), personal circumstances, and other offers, while keeping in mind the tuition burden of such attendance. You do make good points on institutions' varying research focuses and admissions criteria, which could certainly be used to guide my applications. 

[bearded frog]

On 2017-08-10 at 10:43 AM, canucks_14 said:

We need way more physician investigators which is why I am personally leaving Canada.

Citation needed... I know for a fact there is not an applicant shortage in this regard. People do multiple fellowships to become competitive for limited academic positions.

20 hours ago, monkeyroo said:

While some Canadian med students do take these exams, my top choice in Canada would be one of our three-year schools - do you know how feasible it is to take and do well on those exams in that setting?

Calgary/Mac are not at all conductive to taking the USMLE during medical school. You really don't have enough time to properly put in a good faith effort. If you go to a Canadian medical school the benefit of the USMLE is questionable as well. It opens up the US match but generally your chances in Canada will be better anyway*. If you want to take it for a fellowship down the road it may make more sense to take it during residency or go to a four year school and study exclusively in the summer after first year.

*It may make sense if you were really gunning derm or optho, etc.

[monkeyroo]

1 hour ago, bearded frog said:

Citation needed... I know for a fact there is not an applicant shortage in this regard. People do multiple fellowships to become competitive for limited academic positions.

Calgary/Mac are not at all conductive to taking the USMLE during medical school. You really don't have enough time to properly put in a good faith effort. If you go to a Canadian medical school the benefit of the USMLE is questionable as well. It opens up the US match but generally your chances in Canada will be better anyway*. If you want to take it for a fellowship down the road it may make more sense to take it during residency or go to a four year school and study exclusively in the summer after first year.

*It may make sense if you were really gunning derm or optho, etc.

Thanks for your thoughts, bearded frog. How would one go about finding the time to write it during residency? Second question for you - do you know how necessary having your STEP exams is for a fellowship in the US, and which exams would be required in that case - would you need to take all of STEP 1/2CK/2CS/3?

[indefatigable]

16 hours ago, bearded frog said:

Citation needed... I know for a fact there is not an applicant shortage in this regard. People do multiple fellowships to become competitive for limited academic positions.

Calgary/Mac are not at all conductive to taking the USMLE during medical school. You really don't have enough time to properly put in a good faith effort. If you go to a Canadian medical school the benefit of the USMLE is questionable as well. It opens up the US match but generally your chances in Canada will be better anyway*. If you want to take it for a fellowship down the road it may make more sense to take it during residency or go to a four year school and study exclusively in the summer after first year.

*It may make sense if you were really gunning derm or optho, etc.

Those programs are extremely competitive in the US too.  I've never seen a derm J-1 SON issued (although 40 are available), but a few in optho (possibly from AMGs).

One could dedicate a summer to studying, likely after MS2, but many school's curriculums don't cover the USMLE material so there would be a lot of ground to make up to get a strong score.  And it wouldn't really help for CaRMS either - about the same as going on a long summer vacation.  

[bearded frog]

19 hours ago, monkeyroo said:

How would one go about finding the time to write it during residency? Second question for you - do you know how necessary having your STEP exams is for a fellowship in the US, and which exams would be required in that case - would you need to take all of STEP 1/2CK/2CS/3?

You'd have to study it on your own time, evenings weekends, etc. Or take a research block or something. In terms of what you actually need for a fellowship will range by fellowship. Some don't require them at all, some require you to have passed them, some will take your score into account so you'd need to do relatively well. Some states also require them for licence, the fellowship itself notwithstanding.

[canucks_14]

On 8/11/2017 at 3:37 PM, bearded frog said:

Citation needed... I know for a fact there is not an applicant shortage in this regard. People do multiple fellowships to become competitive for limited academic positions.

Calgary/Mac are not at all conductive to taking the USMLE during medical school. You really don't have enough time to properly put in a good faith effort. If you go to a Canadian medical school the benefit of the USMLE is questionable as well. It opens up the US match but generally your chances in Canada will be better anyway*. If you want to take it for a fellowship down the road it may make more sense to take it during residency or go to a four year school and study exclusively in the summer after first year.

*It may make sense if you were really gunning derm or optho, etc.

independent individual needed to search for their own research need. Point proven. I will NOT provide you with any citations. However you can continue

[bearded frog]

23 hours ago, canucks_14 said:

independent individual needed to search for their own research need. Point proven. I will NOT provide you with any citations. However you can continue

This post doesn't make any sense. Also I don't need your permission to post...

[canucks_14]

hm sorry what do your actions have to do with the issue that you raised?