Slightly conflicted, looking for opinions from others.

[michael.10]

So as everyone else, I will be applying this cycle, but will also be applying to MSc programs as well. 

Now my problem is with the MSc program application choice...

Ideally, I would like to apply to UofT's LMP simply because it's closer to home (both my gf and family would like for me to come back) and there are two potential supervisors that I would like to work under. 

However, I have been with my current supervisor (during undergrad) for 2 years now, and I feel extremely bad to tell him that I will not be going back to his lab for my MSc (if I do not get into med my first try). In addition, I still have an undergraduate project to finish to "potentially" submit for publication. However with only preliminary data collected, I likely need this upcoming year to finish collecting further data... I'll have to talk to my undergraduate supervisor in Sept2 2017 to plan out the final game plan to finish this project, but I'm worried that since I will be applying only to the MSc programs back home (and I'll need his reference letter), that I will be unable to complete my project with him during my final year of undergrad, potentially losing a good chance to publish my work...

Also the reason why it's a diffcult decision for me is that I spent the past 2 years working on this project...so at the same time, I don't want to come off as disappointing to my undergraduate supervisor since he is one of my strongest references for anything.

So, what do you think I should do? Be honest to my undergraduate supervisor that I will be applying to MSc back home and not to his lab and asking if he'll let me finish the project? Or submit an application to his lab anyways so at least (hopefully) I don't disappoint him.

Man, choosing to apply to an MSc is also pretty stressful as UofT has that requirement of at least 1 first author pub during graduate studies thing... T_T  

P.S. Sorry for the messiness in presenting my thoughts...with both OMSAS and MSc + Scholarships to deal with, it gets quite overwhelming.

[insomnias]

2 hours ago, michael.10 said:

So as everyone else, I will be applying this cycle, but will also be applying to MSc programs as well. 

Now my problem is with the MSc program application choice...

Ideally, I would like to apply to UofT's LMP simply because it's closer to home (both my gf and family would like for me to come back) and there are two potential supervisors that I would like to work under. 

However, I have been with my current supervisor (during undergrad) for 2 years now, and I feel extremely bad to tell him that I will not be going back to his lab for my MSc (if I do not get into med my first try). In addition, I still have an undergraduate project to finish to "potentially" submit for publication. However with only preliminary data collected, I likely need this upcoming year to finish collecting further data... I'll have to talk to my undergraduate supervisor in Sept2 2017 to plan out the final game plan to finish this project, but I'm worried that since I will be applying only to the MSc programs back home (and I'll need his reference letter), that I will be unable to complete my project with him during my final year of undergrad, potentially losing a good chance to publish my work...

Also the reason why it's a diffcult decision for me is that I spent the past 2 years working on this project...so at the same time, I don't want to come off as disappointing to my undergraduate supervisor since he is one of my strongest references for anything.

So, what do you think I should do? Be honest to my undergraduate supervisor that I will be applying to MSc back home and not to his lab and asking if he'll let me finish the project? Or submit an application to his lab anyways so at least (hopefully) I don't disappoint him.

Man, choosing to apply to an MSc is also pretty stressful as UofT has that requirement of at least 1 first author pub during graduate studies thing... T_T  

P.S. Sorry for the messiness in presenting my thoughts...with both OMSAS and MSc + Scholarships to deal with, it gets quite overwhelming.

With respect to your supervisor: if he wants what's best for you, he'll understand that you're not able to stay in his lab. Don't apply somewhere you wouldn't want to go.

 

With respect to the 1 first author pub thing: Not a requirement. What it means is that U of T won't compare you to grad applicants who do have a first author pub. Instead, your MSc will probably be treated more like additional undergrad. Even then, I'm doubtful about that, considering a lot of people doing basic science work need 2+ years to get a single pub (assuming you're starting at a new lab, new project, etc.). They'd be de facto telling everyone that you're not welcome unless your master's was in something that's easier to publish in

[HappyAndHopeful]

With regards to applying to the MSc programs, where do YOU want to be in the event that you pursue your masters?  I wouldn't base your decision solely on your family's or professor's wishes.  Which program do you think would be the better fit for you, and which do you think you'd enjoy more?  I agree with the above poster that your professor likely has your best interests at heart.  I think the best thing is to be honest with him, and I would be surprised if he dropped you from the project if you don't express interest in continuing on with a masters with him, especially since medical school is your Plan A.  Is it an option to apply to both MSc programs?  That would give you more time to make the decision, especially since it's a decision you might not end up having to make if you get accepted to medical school.  

[Bambi]

If your Supervisor is both unhappy and a douche, you could be burning him and a potential LOR from him! 

Anything is possible.

leaving aside both family and g/f (I know, important considerations really), where are you better off, as another poster wrote. Why not apply to both and. When the time comes, be open and honest with your Supervisor (assuming you are accepted st U/T and wish to go there), however, if not accepted there, then you have your Plan B with your present Super isor and he will be no wiser as regards your potential plane to leave him for a Masters in TO.

[michael.10]

12 hours ago, insomnias said:

With respect to your supervisor: if he wants what's best for you, he'll understand that you're not able to stay in his lab. Don't apply somewhere you wouldn't want to go.

 

With respect to the 1 first author pub thing: Not a requirement. What it means is that U of T won't compare you to grad applicants who do have a first author pub. Instead, your MSc will probably be treated more like additional undergrad. Even then, I'm doubtful about that, considering a lot of people doing basic science work need 2+ years to get a single pub (assuming you're starting at a new lab, new project, etc.). They'd be de facto telling everyone that you're not welcome unless your master's was in something that's easier to publish in

@insomnias good advice. It's not so much I wouldn't want to go but more so the appeal of the UofT labs are drawing me away simply because they have more funding and more updated on the new technological advances, which in turn, will not restrict me as much in my scientific potential.

With point #2, it's good to know that you won't need a first author pub to be considered for admissions, but it would be kind of disappointing after spending 2 years and not qualify for the graduate pool despite putting in a lot of work into your MSc haha. 

11 hours ago, HappyAndHopeful said:

With regards to applying to the MSc programs, where do YOU want to be in the event that you pursue your masters?  I wouldn't base your decision solely on your family's or professor's wishes.  Which program do you think would be the better fit for you, and which do you think you'd enjoy more?  I agree with the above poster that your professor likely has your best interests at heart.  I think the best thing is to be honest with him, and I would be surprised if he dropped you from the project if you don't express interest in continuing on with a masters with him, especially since medical school is your Plan A.  Is it an option to apply to both MSc programs?  That would give you more time to make the decision, especially since it's a decision you might not end up having to make if you get accepted to medical school.  

@HappyAndHopeful,I understand that it'll be my own decision at the end of the day. I think I fit well in both programs, the difference would be research funding in the labs in this case and the fact that UofT would be closer to home. I will be honest with him about my situation, he does know med school is my plan A and hence has been putting in his time to write my LOR after being impressed on my research contribution and productivity in undergrad to his lab. I was planning on applying to both MSc programs as well and come January if I do not receive an interview I can choose between my MSc programs. My other worry is that what happens if I was placed on a waitlist/accepted between May and July - I'm sure the MSc programs have a  deadline for me to accept, so idk what to do in that case (if it happens)... Another problem for me is the awkwardness in timing to ask my LOR for the MSc applications, one of the application is due Oct 1st, 2017 for a Spring term start (which will expect me to defend in the Winter term which is way before the June 30th deadline for Med Schools) and the UofT LMP application is due Feb 1st, 2018 for a Fall term start, but the MSc program is a 5 semester program, which also expects me to defend in the Winter term. Should I let my LORs know ahead of time to compose two different LORs for both MSc program (FYI, my undergraduate supervisor is one of them)?

10 hours ago, Bambi PGY3 said:

If your Supervisor is both unhappy and a douche, you could be burning him and a potential LOR from him! 

Anything is possible.

leaving aside both family and g/f (I know, important considerations really), where are you better off, as another poster wrote. Why not apply to both and. When the time comes, be open and honest with your Supervisor (assuming you are accepted st U/T and wish to go there), however, if not accepted there, then you have your Plan B with your present Super isor and he will be no wiser as regards your potential plane to leave him for a Masters in TO.

@Bambi PGY3, your first comment minus the douche part is what I'm most worried about!!! As he is one of my LOR this year, and will be for years to come (if I don't get in my first try), I don't want to give him a bad impression...AKA losing on such an important LOR. I was planning on applying to both, however my concern is regarding the timing of applications as I mentioned to @HappyAndHopeful above. Should I let my LORs know ahead of time to compose two different LORs for both MSc program (FYI, my undergraduate supervisor is one of them)?

[HappyAndHopeful]

43 minutes ago, michael.10 said:

@HappyAndHopeful,I understand that it'll be my own decision at the end of the day. I think I fit well in both programs, the difference would be research funding in the labs in this case and the fact that UofT would be closer to home. I will be honest with him about my situation, he does know med school is my plan A and hence has been putting in his time to write my LOR after being impressed on my research contribution and productivity in undergrad to his lab. I was planning on applying to both MSc programs as well and come January if I do not receive an interview I can choose between my MSc programs. My other worry is that what happens if I was placed on a waitlist/accepted between May and July - I'm sure the MSc programs have a  deadline for me to accept, so idk what to do in that case (if it happens)... Another problem for me is the awkwardness in timing to ask my LOR for the MSc applications, one of the application is due Oct 1st, 2017 for a Spring term start (which will expect me to defend in the Winter term which is way before the June 30th deadline for Med Schools) and the UofT LMP application is due Feb 1st, 2018 for a Fall term start, but the MSc program is a 5 semester program, which also expects me to defend in the Winter term. Should I let my LORs know ahead of time to compose two different LORs for both MSc program (FYI, my undergraduate supervisor is one of them)?

It's great that you feel that both programs would be a good fit for you, and the other factors you mentioned (family, funding, location, etc.) definitely come into play, too. I knew a few people last year who applied to their masters as backup plans if medical school didn't work out.  It varies by program, but some were able to extend the date they had to respond to their offer by (after explaining their situation to the grad school), or accept their offer under the condition that they would be withdrawing if they received acceptance to med school.  I would let your LOR writers know that you're planning on applying to both programs, and both have different application deadlines.  Once they compose one letter, they may be able to use some/most of it for your second application.

[frenchpress]

As someone who has been a faculty member in science, I agree with the above posters and I advise you to just be honest with your supervisor. Most faculty take a lot of pride in helping their students succeed, even when that success takes a different path than working with them.

Tell your supervisor what you want to do, why, and how you hope they can help you with your goals (LOR). In the long run this is not only likely going to be more helpful to you (possibly in ways you haven't even considered yet), it's going to be helpful to your supervisor. For example, they need to know what projects they have to fund and how many students they have to fund in order to write grants and manage the number of students they take on. Even if they are a little disappointed, they're unlikely to hold it against you if you're honest and make things easier for them.

Cases where faculty members give poor references purely out of spite because of something like a student leaving a lab are extremely uncommon. Usually a poor reference is deserved. I can assure you that when I have students who seem to give me half truths or are dishonest or just overly strategic about things instead of being open about them, I will mention those things in a reference letter -- and those don't tend to be qualities that medical schools or graduate schools are looking for.

[JohnGrisham]

"good advice. It's not so much I wouldn't want to go but more so the appeal of the UofT labs are drawing me away simply because they have more funding and more updated on the new technological advances, which in turn, will not restrict me as much in my scientific potential."

Don't be persuaded by shiny equipment that you likely wouldnt even get to use as a junior masters student.  

[robclem21]

Honesty is always the best policy in my opinion when it comes to supervisors and making decisions. Lying is a surefire way to burn bridges with potential references and won't really benefit you in any way. Regarding your project, tell him that you are really keen on finishing it, but there is a chance you may not be around in the fall. Hopefully he goes for it and lets you finish. I agree that it would be a shame to not get authorship on it after putting so much work on it. Even if you apply to your current school as a backup, it would be wise to discuss a plan with your supervisor ahead of time, just in case you leave. It may take time to put together a plan that works for both of you. Perhaps there is a way to finish it over the summer, or a way that a graduate student can help you finish up but you retain authorship. There should be no real expectation on your part to stay past your degree to finish this. People come in and out of labs all the time and supervisors know this. Just be responsible with how you handle the transition and I'm sure your supervisor would have no problem finding a way to keep you involved.  I have even seen graduate students take a bit of time during their masters to finish off projects from their undergrad and work with other supervisors simultaneously to complete old work.

With your program choice, it is really up to you. We can all take your concerns into account, but only you can place an actual relative value on your family, gf, school, productivity, etc. I agree with others though that shiny equipment and more funding isn't always the best reason to go somewhere. More students means more competition for graduate scholarships as there is usually an institutional limit and more competition in the bigger settings like UofT. Go somewhere you will be happy and productive. The same applies should you need to make the same decision for med school.

[michael.10]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:42 PM, HappyAndHopeful said:

It's great that you feel that both programs would be a good fit for you, and the other factors you mentioned (family, funding, location, etc.) definitely come into play, too. I knew a few people last year who applied to their masters as backup plans if medical school didn't work out.  It varies by program, but some were able to extend the date they had to respond to their offer by (after explaining their situation to the grad school), or accept their offer under the condition that they would be withdrawing if they received acceptance to med school.  I would let your LOR writers know that you're planning on applying to both programs, and both have different application deadlines.  Once they compose one letter, they may be able to use some/most of it for your second application.

Thanks for the advice ! I will definitely talk to my supervisior and LORs with this in mind.

On 8/17/2017 at 0:46 PM, frenchpress said:

As someone who has been a faculty member in science, I agree with the above posters and I advise you to just be honest with your supervisor. Most faculty take a lot of pride in helping their students succeed, even when that success takes a different path than working with them.

Tell your supervisor what you want to do, why, and how you hope they can help you with your goals (LOR). In the long run this is not only likely going to be more helpful to you (possibly in ways you haven't even considered yet), it's going to be helpful to your supervisor. For example, they need to know what projects they have to fund and how many students they have to fund in order to write grants and manage the number of students they take on. Even if they are a little disappointed, they're unlikely to hold it against you if you're honest and make things easier for them.

Cases where faculty members give poor references purely out of spite because of something like a student leaving a lab are extremely uncommon. Usually a poor reference is deserved. I can assure you that when I have students who seem to give me half truths or are dishonest or just overly strategic about things instead of being open about them, I will mention those things in a reference letter -- and those don't tend to be qualities that medical schools or graduate schools are looking for.

Thanks for the advice! It was definitely helpful to get an insight from an individual that held a faculty position. I will definitely talk to him when I head back to school this september!

On 8/17/2017 at 2:43 PM, JohnGrisham said:

"good advice. It's not so much I wouldn't want to go but more so the appeal of the UofT labs are drawing me away simply because they have more funding and more updated on the new technological advances, which in turn, will not restrict me as much in my scientific potential."

Don't be persuaded by shiny equipment that you likely wouldnt even get to use as a junior masters student.  

Ahhh, sorry, I should of phrased out my point better. It's not so much the equipment, but more so like being able to get antibodies of higher quality, pre-casted gel sets, more of the basic stuff that can really help save preparation time when conducting an experiment. Higher quality antibodies do help with binding specificity and reduction in background when it comes to measuring the OD. 

On 8/18/2017 at 4:47 PM, robclem21 said:

Honesty is always the best policy in my opinion when it comes to supervisors and making decisions. Lying is a surefire way to burn bridges with potential references and won't really benefit you in any way. Regarding your project, tell him that you are really keen on finishing it, but there is a chance you may not be around in the fall. Hopefully he goes for it and lets you finish. I agree that it would be a shame to not get authorship on it after putting so much work on it. Even if you apply to your current school as a backup, it would be wise to discuss a plan with your supervisor ahead of time, just in case you leave. It may take time to put together a plan that works for both of you. Perhaps there is a way to finish it over the summer, or a way that a graduate student can help you finish up but you retain authorship. There should be no real expectation on your part to stay past your degree to finish this. People come in and out of labs all the time and supervisors know this. Just be responsible with how you handle the transition and I'm sure your supervisor would have no problem finding a way to keep you involved.  I have even seen graduate students take a bit of time during their masters to finish off projects from their undergrad and work with other supervisors simultaneously to complete old work.

With your program choice, it is really up to you. We can all take your concerns into account, but only you can place an actual relative value on your family, gf, school, productivity, etc. I agree with others though that shiny equipment and more funding isn't always the best reason to go somewhere. More students means more competition for graduate scholarships as there is usually an institutional limit and more competition in the bigger settings like UofT. Go somewhere you will be happy and productive. The same applies should you need to make the same decision for med school.

For sure I will be honest with my supervisor, I wasn't going to lie to him from the start, just trying to find a way to appropriate portray my thoughts to him to maintain my current project while keeping my opinions open to other universities for grad school - I don't want to come off as an individual who portrays a selfish desire in this case. But yes, I do agree, that I will have to talk to my supervisor and put in a long-term plan that will be followed until the end of this upcoming school year. 

Also I do agree, at the end of the day, I will have to make a decision. But thanks for the important information regarding scholarships. I would of assume that there isn't any difference since UofT gets a larger research funding, which means more awards, but also they accept more graduate students as well. I would assume the award allocation and # of graduate students would breakeven at any university. But then again, I guess I am incorrect with my assumption in this case.