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medmedmed132

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40 minutes ago, medmedmed132 said:

Applied this cycle, and getting cold feet about taking McGill if I get it. There seems to be constant issues at McGill med, and I'm thinking I'd rather just take Toronto instead.

ie, doctors in Quebec are asking for lower pay, and the residents at McGill are on strike? Is it worth it to put up with constant disruptions and drama when I'm just trying to get through med school and match for CaRMS? Plus the McGill CaRMS match rate is pretty low, too... 2nd lowest match rate out of any Canadian school in 2017? AND I have to learn French by third year to do well in clerkship - and get reference letters to match to CaRMS?

I'm personally unsure and really think that prestige =/= success here.

I don't think it is fair you are attributing general Québec healthcare-related issues to your decision. McGill was middle of the pack in 2016 in terms of CaRMS. You may also forget how McGill sends ~10 graduates to the states each year through NRMP (the most of any Canadian medical school). 

Also, untrue that you "have to learn" French by third year to do well in clerkship. Many have gone by avoiding French all four years, but it is useful to be passively bilingual. You can do your electives anywhere else in Canada and get reference letters.

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I feel like a lot of the notions you are discussing have a legitimate basis if you only look at selected articles recently published in the media.
The decision is yours but it should be taken with the right information interpreted in the right context.
Let me try to address some of the issues.
 

1 - Doctors in Quebec are asking for lower pay.

  • Specialists have been given a raise recently. In fact, it's not totally a raise. They were simply given a deal to be paid for having accepted lower salaries in the previous years. That deal was already done a few years ago. All the government did was respect the deal. But in the media, that was like a lottery ticket to write articles with scandalous titles.
  • In response to that media crisis, some organizations that are not representing the majority of the physicians, have asked for a lower salary because they believe that the money could be invested elsewhere. That was an unusual move, not because they were doctors. Just because no professional group asks for a lower raise while inflation is occurring. And the media picked it up.
  • Bottom line : There is media bashing about doctors. Some groups have expressed themselves for a raise, others against it. Healthy democracy.

2 - Residents at McGill are on strike.

  • Just like any professional group, residents negotiate with their employers regarding their salaries, benefits, etc. Because they were not satisfied with the conditions and negotiations, they have voted for a strike. This happens every day in the corporate world. A strike does not mean that you are at home. Some measures include refusing the accomplish certain non-critials acts (eg. teaching).
  • Bottom line : Employees that were trying to improve their working conditions voted a strike. 

3- McGill CaRMS match rate is pretty low

  • That only demonstrates that McGill students tend to apply to very competitive residencies that lead them to a higher non-match rate. The rate is nothing if you can't take it into the context. Let's say I open University ABC and I recruit candidates that are strongly interested by family medicine. When CaRMS day comes, they will tend to apply to family medicine and that specialty is known to have a higher acceptance rate. Now my friend decides to open University XYZ and he only focuses on candidates that have a surgical interest. Also, his students don't apply to any 'back-up' specialty. When CaRMS comes, his students will have a lower match rate.
  • Bottom line : CaRMS match rates are only an indicator of the competitiveness of the programs the students have applied to.

4 - I have to learn French by third year to do well in clerkship

  • French is a political and sensitive issue in Québec. Montréal is a bilingual city so it would be a lie to say that a minimal French won't help you out. I see this as an opportunity rather than a challenge. You won't be asked to read out Sartre or Camus here. Be functional. And by living in Montréal during two full years, meeting new people, participating in activities, you will learn it without even realizing. Don't forget that it is true for almost any Montréaler. So your colleagues, the patients and the staff will also be somewhat bilingual and they will adapt to you.
  • Bottom line : You have the opportunity to learn functional French.

5 - I have to get reference letters to match to CaRMS?

  • McGill did not create CaRMS. I am not sure about what particular aspect you are discussing but the admission criteria for specialties are made by the program. As a note, I only know of a few programs (4) in Canada that don't require reference letters for CaRMS. 
  • Bottom line : The majority of post-medical programs require reference letters, no matter where you go.

 

Again, my goal is not to make McGill look better.
But I believe you should take your decision based on the right information.
Good luck ! :)

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37 minutes ago, HoopDreams said:

4 - I have to learn French by third year to do well in clerkship

  • French is a political and sensitive issue in Québec. Montréal is a bilingual city so it would be a lie to say that a minimal French won't help you out. I see this as an opportunity rather than a challenge. You won't be asked to read out Sartre or Camus here. Be functional. And by living in Montréal during two full years, meeting new people, participating in activities, you will learn it without even realizing. Don't forget that it is true for almost any Montréaler. So your colleagues, the patients and the staff will also be somewhat bilingual and they will adapt to you.
  • Bottom line : You have the opportunity to learn functional French.

Again, my goal is not to make McGill look better.
But I believe you should take your decision based on the right information.
Good luck ! :)

If you do learn French, you will then be able to apply to all the French-speaking residency positions.  Given the climate in today's CaRMS, and the fact that there are many more open residency positions in QC, this could be a prudent move.  

OTOH, as OOP in QC, you will have to a sign a conditional ROS contract, which states that if you stay in QC after completing all your training, you will have to do a regional ROS.  

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I don't see if that way, OP. I am an OOP student and I don't regret my decision one bit. There are plenty of advantages. I see learning French as an opportunity rather than an impediment, and I see living in Montreal as a way to explore another city of Canada. Having been in Toronto my whole life, this was a refreshing change. Plus! The low tuition at McGill doesn't hurt :) Marrakech points out a good thing to note - the ROS contract does impose some restrictions should you decide to settle and get licensed in Quebec. 

In the current CaRMS climate, learning French and having access to the 3 francophone schools/spots is an advantage in and of itself. 

Lastly, kiterunner brings up a good point - McGill graduates have been very adept at securing US residency positions (the American counterpart of CaRMS is NRMP). We send down 7-10 graduates each year for the last few years to the states, most of any Canadian medical schools. I won't read too much into this tho, but to the US, reputation of the school does matter. U of T/McGill/UBC have a good reputation down south.

P.S.: Even as an OOPer, your McGill tuition is half of that of U of T. This was an important consideration for me when I was deciding. Heads-up!

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1 minute ago, medmedmed132 said:

OK, these are interesting points. But @marrakech also brings up a good point regarding the return of service. Doing a residency in QC (which others have touted as a benefit of learning French) means being forced to work in rural Quebec, right? Or pay a fine of $300,000 right? Why would someone who has the chance to do medical school in another province risk this?

No. Doing a residency in Qc does not trigger the clauses in the contract. You only need to do rural ROS if and should you decide to practise in Qc (i.e., after residency).

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3 hours ago, medmedmed132 said:


Good point about tuition, but half price of Canadian tuition doesn't seem to be enough of a discount to risk your entire future with a low CaRMS match rate, having to learn a language you may or may not have any experience with whatsoever, and/or potentially being stuck practicing for years in rural Quebec. Assuming that OOP applicants are good enough to get in to McGill (with the low OOP rates), they could and probably should pick a different school to avoid these issues - or even the chance to have to face these issues, no?

My understanding is that all staff will be able to speak English and there are even translation services available for med students, since the majority of patients in Montréal are francophones.  I don't think there' any evaluation in French (i.e. you won't be graded in French), you could look at simply as another opportunity - anglophone only faculties are struggling more with the current CaRMS climate.  No reason why you would ever be stuck in rural Québec - just wouldn't be able to necessarily work in Montréal after doing all your training.  You can easily move to another province (or even country), if you so choose - McGill is a recognized name globally.

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1 hour ago, medmedmed132 said:

Okay, while you've raised good points, I don't see McGill (despite having some semblance of solutions to these issues) as being better than UofT. For every issue I've raised, there's been a good-ish counterpoint. That said, UofT has the same prestige, better match rate, and none of the above issues (regardless of how much of an issue you see them to be). Going to McGill over UofT would give you a lot of hassles that UofT students can simply avoid.

I think you’re missing the point. No one is trying to argue one is better than the other. All Canadian medical schools are of high quality. Frankly, no one can compare the quality because one only attends one school so there is no meaningful basis for comparison. 

For the record, if you’re fortunate enough to hold multiple offers, picking a school is a personal choice. If you’re trying to dissect the stats, McGill had a better match rate than U of T in 2016. It changes year over year, based on so many factors. The CaRMS match is more complex than you think, and you need to divorce the idea of how one year’s stats of one medical school will be the key determinant from your decision making.

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  • medmedmed132 changed the title to Avoiding McGill as an OOP
1 hour ago, medmedmed132 said:

Okay, while you've raised good points, I don't see McGill (despite having some semblance of solutions to these issues) as being better than UofT. For every issue I've raised, there's been a good-ish counterpoint. That said, UofT has the same prestige, better match rate, and none of the above issues (regardless of how much of an issue you see them to be). Going to McGill over UofT would give you a lot of hassles that UofT students can simply avoid.

I can see your point of view, and I think honestly at the end of the day it's your decision completely, should you be fortunate to receive multiple offers.  Others may think like you, since if I recall correctly the OOP waitlist moves fairly quickly for McGill.  I think other posters are simply suggesting to be open-minded about a potential opportunity at McGill.

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Honestly, regardless of your other concerns, if you simply don't want to learn French, don't go to McGill. Yes you can avoid it, but at least 50% of the patients will want to speak French with you in Montreal. If you want to learn it, you'll learn it fast and even if you make mistakes people will see that you try hard and will be grateful for it. But if you don't want to learn French, it'll just be obvious that you're not making efforts and that you're not interested.... to a certain level it can be seen as arrogant/snob and could impair relationships with your patients.

However, I encourage you to choose McGill and see the opportunity to learn a new language as a challenge and an excellent exercise for the brain! 

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I definitely see the 300k/ROS as a big deal, but at the end of the day, you have to make a decision that you're happy with. Don't choose a school (whether that is Toronto or McGill) if you know you'll regret it. I would be happy to stay at McGill from undergraduate to medical school and keep improving my french - but I know a lot of my friends will be returning to UBC if given the choice (for a number of reasons including the ROS, support network etc).

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6 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:

The tuition point still stands, unless you already live in Toronto. 

Also is it true that at Mcgill, call shifts during clerkship are not 24 hours? 

That's correct. The 24-hour in-house call model no longer exists in Quebec. McGill clerks are no longer expected to work more than 16 consecutive hours. 

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6 hours ago, medmedmed132 said:

Okay, while you've raised good points, I don't see McGill (despite having some semblance of solutions to these issues) as being better than UofT. For every issue I've raised, there's been a good-ish counterpoint. That said, UofT has the same prestige, better match rate, and none of the above issues (regardless of how much of an issue you see them to be). Going to McGill over UofT would give you a lot of hassles that UofT students can simply avoid.

Compelling argument - I hope you have fun at UofT med!

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10 hours ago, medmedmed132 said:

Applied this cycle, and getting cold feet about taking McGill if I get it. There seems to be constant issues at McGill med, and I'm thinking I'd rather just take Toronto instead.

ie, doctors in Quebec are asking for lower pay, and the residents at McGill are on strike? Is it worth it to put up with constant disruptions and drama when I'm just trying to get through med school and match for CaRMS? Plus the McGill CaRMS match rate is pretty low, too... 2nd lowest match rate out of any Canadian school in 2017? AND I have to learn French by third year to do well in clerkship - and get reference letters to match to CaRMS?

I'm personally unsure and really think that prestige =/= success here.

Prestige =/= success. What = success is who you are as a person. No matter where you go, your success is in your hands, not in where you go to school. What does change, is where you live for 4 years and there is a home school advantage when it comes to applying for residency. Choose your medical school based on where you want to live.

Be careful about those who are using matching to NRMP as an indicator of success. These people may very well be non-citizens who cannot apply to CaRMS. Without knowing where these people match, it is difficult to tell if NRMP was their preference. Canadian residency programs by and large sit at the upper end of US residency programs due to the US having a large number of community based low volume programs and hospital based rather than university based programs. Most medical schools in Canada take few if any international students and the three year schools rarely ever send anyone to the US due to the already condensed program. 

Match rates vary year on year based on a number of factors, where people apply where they want to go. All Canadian schools do well in the match. McMaster for instance had a great match year in 2016, a bad one in 2017 and this year had a great match rate and a huge number of students landing competitive locations. That is all based on the year to year variation. 

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10 hours ago, medmedmed132 said:

Okay, all good points! @Snowmen not trying to be closed minded or already decided, just trying to reason through the decision and understand why the OOP waitlist moves so much.

Probably for the simple reason that it is an OOP waitlist. Many people would prefer to stay closer to home than to study in another province regardless of the quality (which doesn't really vary in Canada) or prestige of a school for personal reasons if they have that option.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/12/2018 at 10:35 AM, medmedmed132 said:

Applied this cycle, and getting cold feet about taking McGill if I get it. There seems to be constant issues at McGill med, and I'm thinking I'd rather just take Toronto instead.

ie, doctors in Quebec are asking for lower pay, and the residents at McGill are on strike? Is it worth it to put up with constant disruptions and drama when I'm just trying to get through med school and match for CaRMS? Plus the McGill CaRMS match rate is pretty low, too... 2nd lowest match rate out of any Canadian school in 2017? AND I have to learn French by third year to do well in clerkship - and get reference letters to match to CaRMS?

I'm personally unsure and really think that prestige =/= success here.

Not sure how residents being on strike for 1 day is considered constant disruptions, but even if you deem it a problem, this will be settled long before you are even close to stepping foot within the hospitals. Additionally, CaRMS match rates (as was previously mentioned) reflects competitive residency applications with lack of proper parallel choices more-so than anything else. Honestly, matching is entirely based on your own performance during your core clerkships and electives. Once you're in medical school, you'll understand that name-brand value of your school means very little in the grand scheme of things. You have to make your own path by being smart and working hard, because if you don't do either of those things, you won't match to the program you want regardless if you're at Harvard or a Caribbean school.

Only thing your chosen medical school can help with is possibly getting better elective placements, based on the program's experience with the performance of previous students sent from your school. With regards to electives, McGill provides their students with the most amount of elective-rotation weeks relative to other Canadian schools, so that is a massive positive. 

All else being equal, choose the school in the city you would most want to stay in afterwards, because that is where you will be doing your core-clerkships and have the most face-time with residents/staff that will be considering you for a residency position. Don't choose your school based on superficial differences, as you'll realize that those become irrelevant very quick
 

 

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